Keystone Food Service

[Evan's Trains]

Hello, does anybody think that Keystone trains to and from New York need food service coaches? 4 hours seems to be a long time with no food and even worse there is no Business Class at all. Does Amtrak think the Keystone is too short to have a cafe, or is it a shortage of food service cars?

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I don't think the Keystone trains need food service, for two reasons:

First, if you are going between Philly and Harrisburg, you can get great food at both ends. Philly's 30th Street has a terrific food court, and the Harrisburg train station has a wonderful newsstand with good sandwiches, coffee, etc., at much more reasonable prices than an Amtrak café car (I have even walked up there when in Harrisburg to get lunch instead of going to a restaurant!)

I have never been north of TRE on the Keystones, but I'm sure someone starting from New York would have plenty of options for food to bring on the train.

Second, the Keystone trains are cleaner than the Regionals, and I think this has something to do with there being no café car. On the Regionals, people leave their food containers and other trash, whereas on the Keystone this doesn't seem to happen as much.

As for Business Class, the Keystones have a lovely Quiet Car, which I think is more important. You don't get anything in Business Class anymore, except a few free beverages.

Of course, others may feel differently, but the Keystones are my favorite trains, and I like them just the way they are!

 

[HARHBG]

Keystone Service is funded in great part by the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. As is often the case, funding, funding, money, funding, money...............Pennsylvania is in a budget crisis at the moment with the new Democrat Governor locking horns with the Republican controlled legislature, is operating without a formal budget on stop-gap legislation bills and who knows what the future could be?

Yes, a cafe car wuld be nice but can't see where it would be econonomically viable, considering the entire route is only 4 hours and as you wrote, doesn't have a Business Class level of service.

Keystone is basic "commuter service", not much more than any local transit service with UNreserved service in PA. Albeit an important link for Harrisburg, the furthest Western station to link with the greater North East Corridor, which is WHY PA funds this service.

Money, money, money..............when that train sells out at 75+% of the time, then you might start to see expansion of services offered. I've ridden this train a number of times now and the train is 75% EMPTY from HAR to PHL with the majority of passengers boarding at LAN (Lancaster)............Actually, I'm genuinely surprised PA continues to fund this obvious "money-looser", but as a PA Taxpayer, I'm glad PA does continue to fund this train and hope it continues and ridership increases. Time will tell...............

 

[Evan's Trains]

Keystone Service is funded in great part by the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. As is often the case, funding, funding, money, funding, money...............Pennsylvania is in a budget crisis at the moment with the new Democrat Governor locking horns with the Republican controlled legislature, is operating without a formal budget on stop-gap legislation bills and who knows what the future could be?

Yes, a cafe car wuld be nice but can't see where it would be econonomically viable, considering the entire route is only 4 hours and as you wrote, doesn't have a Business Class level of service.

Keystone is basic "commuter service", not much more than any local transit service with UNreserved service in PA. Albeit an important link for Harrisburg, the furthest Western station to link with the greater North East Corridor, which is WHY PA funds this service.

Money, money, money..............when that train sells out at 75+% of the time, then you might start to see expansion of services offered. I've ridden this train a number of times now and the train is 75% EMPTY from HAR to PHL with the majority of passengers boarding at LAN (Lancaster)............Actually, I'm genuinely surprised PA continues to fund this obvious "money-looser", but as a PA Taxpayer, I'm glad PA does continue to fund this train and hope it continues and ridership increases. Time will tell...............

I see now, I did not know that the Keystone was supposed to be Commuter-Rail-Like. Now that I know I realize the lack of food service, and due to the Common Wealth of PA in a crisis that can also explain why. Thank you for the reply I appreciate it.

 

[PRR 60]

...

I've ridden this train a number of times now and the train is 75% EMPTY from HAR to PHL with the majority of passengers boarding at LAN (Lancaster)............

...

Minor correction: the station code for Lancaster, PA is LNC. LAN is, oddly enough, L'Anse, MI.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Keystone Service is funded in great part by the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. As is often the case, funding, funding, money, funding, money...............Pennsylvania is in a budget crisis at the moment with the new Democrat Governor locking horns with the Republican controlled legislature, is operating without a formal budget on stop-gap legislation bills and who knows what the future could be?

Yes, a cafe car wuld be nice but can't see where it would be econonomically viable, considering the entire route is only 4 hours and as you wrote, doesn't have a Business Class level of service.

Keystone is basic "commuter service", not much more than any local transit service with UNreserved service in PA. Albeit an important link for Harrisburg, the furthest Western station to link with the greater North East Corridor, which is WHY PA funds this service.

Money, money, money..............when that train sells out at 75+% of the time, then you might start to see expansion of services offered. I've ridden this train a number of times now and the train is 75% EMPTY from HAR to PHL with the majority of passengers boarding at LAN (Lancaster)............Actually, I'm genuinely surprised PA continues to fund this obvious "money-looser", but as a PA Taxpayer, I'm glad PA does continue to fund this train and hope it continues and ridership increases. Time will tell...............

All passenger trains are money losers. That's why they need support from local, state and federal governments. If they made money, the private freight railroads would run them. And don't going saying that the Accelas, Northeast Regionals, Auto Train, Silver Meteor, etc., make money. They don't. Some made make money on "above the rail" revenue, but in the end, they all cost more money than they make. Pennsylvania supports the Keystones because they provide a public service. They are basically a high class commuter train, like the Hiawathas. They don't need cafe cars or business class for their short runs.

 

[MARC Rider]

Back in my youth (circa 1975) when I rode the Keystone trains on a semi regular basis, the equipment was SEPTA Silverliners, complete with 3-2 commuter seating for the two hour trip. If you wanted to go to NYP, you had to change at 30th St., and the Clockers didn't have cafe cars, either. But the equivalents to the Regional did, and some even had real dining cars. I used to be able to have a full dinner between Trenton and Newark.

There were two trains that gave you a one seat ride from NYP to Harrisburg, the Broadway, which had a diner, and the Valley Forge, which I think had a Snack Bar Coach (a cafe car without tables), but those didn't stop at 30th St, only at north philadelphia.

 

[neroden]

All passenger trains are money losers.

....in the same sense that all automobiles are money losers. There's a huge subsidy going to build and maintain the roads, and similarly, a (much smaller) subsidy is needed to build and maintain the tracks. In the same sense, all buses are money-losers too (including Greyhound) and most commercial trucking is a money-loser as well. Other "money losers" in this sense include nearly all airlines, none of which paid for the construction of the airports they use.
A better way to look at this is that we subsidize transportation infrastructure because it has benefits well beyond the immediate users.

The Keystones should have either cafe cars or cart-based food service like the Hiawathas used to have, but Pennsylvania hasn't been interested in it. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

 

[fairviewroad]

I could see having a roll-on cart service on the PHL-NYP portion. That would, at least, bring the service level a little closer to the NER trains that ply the same route. And it would serve the "needs" of people riding as through-passengers between HAR-NYP who would be on the train for 3+ hours.

West of PHL, most riders are on for relatively short stretches, and most start or end their trip at PHL, which has plenty of food/beverage options. I don't really see the need to clutter up the aisles with a cart.

But overall, it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

 

[jis]

The fact of the matter is that most typical riders of trains like the Keystone overwhelmingly prefer cheaper fares to having food service. They really are no different from the typical airline steerage passengers. That is the unfortunate truth. The whole society has been fully Walmartized, whether we like it or not.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

"airline steerage," jis? I rarely disagree with you, but I have to here.

I refuse to go into Walmart, and I won't go on a plane, but I love the Keystones between PHL and HAR. I think of them as basically a nice commuter rail, where I can curl up in the Quiet Car and read the newspaper, look at the Amish farms and some other nice scenery, have a friendly conductor who treats everyone with courtesy, and start (if from PHL) and end at nice destinations.

Of course, living in NJ, most everything leaving NJ looks pretty good!

 

[jis]

"airline steerage," jis? I rarely disagree with you, but I have to here.

I was not suggesting that the travel experience on Keystone is the same as airline steerage. All that I was saying is when it comes to choose between food service or low fare, Coach passengers on both airlines and trains on journeys less than three hours tend to choose lower fares. Actually the airlines seem to think absolutely no food is perfectly acceptable for less than 2 hours, and some boxed food for sale is acceptable all the way to 6/7 hour rides. The trains seem to be in the same ball park with what I consider to be somewhat better food choice availability for Coach passengers on trains than on planes these days.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

"airline steerage," jis? I rarely disagree with you, but I have to here.

I was not suggesting that the travel experience on Keystone is the same as airline steerage. All that I was saying is when it comes to choose between food service or low fare, Coach passengers on both airlines and trains on journeys less than three hours tend to choose lower fares. Actually the airlines seem to think absolutely no food is perfectly acceptable for less than 2 hours, and some boxed food for sale is acceptable all the way to 6/7 hour rides. The trains seem to be in the same ball park with what I consider to be somewhat better food choice availability for Coach passengers on trains than on planes these days.

Oh, I see. Thanks for clarifying .

 

[Ryan]

But overall, it seems like a solution in search of a problem.

That's pretty much the AU motto.

 

[OBS]

Many years ago there was food service on one Amtrak train between NYP and Harrisburg. evening rush hour out of NYP and morning rush hour back. Never did very much business, similar to food service on the Albany trains...

 

[Alexandria Nick]

The fact of the matter is that most typical riders of trains like the Keystone overwhelmingly prefer cheaper fares to having food service. They really are no different from the typical airline steerage passengers. That is the unfortunate truth. The whole society has been fully Walmartized, whether we like it or not.

How, exactly, is that unfortunate? Sounds completely reasonable to me.

 

[jis]

It is just a matter of opinion. Each is entitled to one

 

[Ryan]

And it's a very reasonable opinion. Some of us like nice things and are willing to pay for them.

 

[BCL]

Many years ago there was food service on one Amtrak train between NYP and Harrisburg. evening rush hour out of NYP and morning rush hour back. Never did very much business, similar to food service on the Albany trains...

Doesn't the Pennsylvanian have a cafe car?

 

[jis]

The Pennsylvanian is a New York - Pittsburgh train, not a New York - Harrisburg train. Of course it has a cafe car.

 

[BCL]

The Pennsylvanian is a New York - Pittsburgh train, not a New York - Harrisburg train. Of course it has a cafe car.

However, I thought it more or less covered the entire Keystone route, if one insisted on having a cafe car.

 

[jis]

It does indeed, except for those traveling from or to Ardmore, Exton, Downingtown, Coatsville, Parkesburg, Mount Joy and MIddletown, where it does not stop and many (but not all) Keystones do. I do see what you were trying to say though...

 

[benjibear]

In my opinion the Keystones do not need a cafe car. From my experience, west of Philadelphia is mostly used as a commuter line. The stretch between PHL and NYP is in the middle of the NEC so Amtrak uses the Keystones to supplement the NER capacity between these two cities. When stopping at PHL, the train almost empties where only a handful of people are left.

In lieu of a cafe car, you think Amtrak would figure out how to install vending machines. The cafe car food is like what you would get out of a vending machine.

 

[Acela150]

Yes. Between PHL and HAR is a mostly commuter ride. When I went to HAR back in February for a trip to the NS Harrisburg Division Office west of LNC the train I was on, which was the first to HAR of the day, was a local and picked up lots of folks commuting to HAR.

There is a newsstand at HAR I think it was MRD mentioned it. They have some of the best pretzel bread sandwiches I've ever had. They had it before Pretzel Bread was a big hit. I've also been on Keystone trains to NYP from PHL, and got something at Dunkin' Donuts.

Now the problem with BenjiBear's idea of a vending machine is simple, the equipment rotates throughout the NEC. It's not like the NC State equipment which is captive.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Now the problem with BenjiBear's idea of a vending machine is simple, the equipment rotates throughout the NEC. It's not like the NC State equipment which is captive.

That and the state of PA would still be on the hook for the costs of having such a car in the consist. Plus, there is the cost of converting one.