Killing Amtrak: terrible OTP

[Sam Damon]

A survey of NS's ability to deliver #30 into Pittsburgh -- the EB Capitol Limited -- suggests lousy OTP on a par with the Amtrak version of the National Limited (RIP, October 1979 or so). The average delay into Pittsburgh for #30, according to the friendly folks at amtrakdelays.com is three hours late.

Now back in the day when I was a teenage railfan attempting to snap the odd photo of the National Limited on the old PRR mainline a bicycle ride away from my house, a late train meant better light for me to photograph it. Even so, I really felt terrible for the folks expecting a reasonably on-time arrival.

It seems we are back to those days. Hopefully, we will avoid the route cuts that happened under the Carter administration.

 

[frj1983]

A survey of NS's ability to deliver #30 into Pittsburgh -- the EB Capitol Limited -- suggests lousy OTP on a par with the Amtrak version of the National Limited (RIP, October 1979 or so). The average delay into Pittsburgh for #30, according to the friendly folks at amtrakdelays.com is three hours late.
Now back in the day when I was a teenage railfan attempting to snap the odd photo of the National Limited on the old PRR mainline a bicycle ride away from my house, a late train meant better light for me to photograph it. Even so, I really felt terrible for the folks expecting a reasonably on-time arrival.

It seems we are back to those days. Hopefully, we will avoid the route cuts that happened under the Carter administration.

Isn't it amazing how forum members (this and others) regularly rip UP and CSX, but say very little about NS (OK people probably do, but it just doesn't stick out as much) which seems to have trouble delivering the LSL to Clevelend in any semblance of time as well as the CL. I'd be really curious to know what recourse (for late trains) was written into the renegotiated contracts for running trains that Amtrak did with each of the host RR's in 1996???

It seems Amtrak was incredibly short-sighted (isn't that news) because it seems there is no recourse! Unless of course you count Congressional Members talking about it in a hearing or discussion somewhere...and bad publicity goes away after a few days. So the RR's can ignore it (the publicity) and Amtrak!

 

[x-press]

Isn't it amazing how forum members (this and others) regularly rip UP and CSX, but say very little about NS (OK people probably do, but it just doesn't stick out as much) which seems to have trouble delivering the LSL to Clevelend in any semblance of time as well as the CL. I'd be really curious to know what recourse (for late trains) was written into the renegotiated contracts for running trains that Amtrak did with each of the host RR's in 1996???

Having experienced NS/BNSF and UP/CSX dispatching over the years, NS at least seems to TRY to get trains through. When the Capitol loses time, in my experience, it really IS because the line is congested. Compare that to UP, which let a freight into KC AHEAD of us . . . in the SAME direction we were going!!! They chose to delay a passenger train by ~30 minutes rather than delay the freight ~10 minutes. NS furiously switched us back and forth trying to get us around all their traffic . . . we lost plenty of time doing so, but many people on the train were genuinely surprised that we were as late as we were upon arriving in Pittsburgh. On the Mule into KC, we were surprised we weren't later after sitting on the outskirts of town for 45 minutes at a dead stop.

Not that I find any of this "acceptable" in any way, just my experiences.

JPS

 

[Sam Damon]

Having experienced NS/BNSF and UP/CSX dispatching over the years, NS at least seems to TRY to get trains through. When the Capitol loses time, in my experience, it really IS because the line is congested. Compare that to UP, which let a freight into KC AHEAD of us . . . in the SAME direction we were going!!! They chose to delay a passenger train by ~30 minutes rather than delay the freight ~10 minutes. NS furiously switched us back and forth trying to get us around all their traffic . . . we lost plenty of time doing so, but many people on the train were genuinely surprised that we were as late as we were upon arriving in Pittsburgh. On the Mule into KC, we were surprised we weren't later after sitting on the outskirts of town for 45 minutes at a dead stop.
Not that I find any of this "acceptable" in any way, just my experiences.

I agree that NS dispatchers do give #29/30 at least a college try. In 2005, they positively surprised me by running #29/30 on my round trip on-time... both ways!

(Or rather, OT for the NS part of the trip. #30 ended up an hour late into Washington Union Station that day thanks to CSX, but NS had delivered it to them OT into Pittsburgh.)

 

[Sam Damon]

FWIW, here's the report card on #29(15). Into Pittsburgh at 12:28a, 45 minutes late.

As for #30(15), the train departed Chicago 1:37 late, at 8:42p, and appears to have gotten later. Amtrak.com's train status reports pages for Toledo, Cleveland, and Pittsburgh are spitting out error messages. It sounds like something is very, very, wrong with #30(15).

Putzing around with the train status feature on Amtrak.com reveals this error message:

DEP DELAY CONNECTIONS 4 & 22

...which asserts the CL was held for the SWC, and Texas Eagle.

As of this edit, #30(15) is running a mere five hours and ten minutes late. Amtrak projects its arrival into Pittsburgh at 10:40a.

EDIT TWO: #30(15) arrived in Pittsburgh at 11:00a, a full five hours and thirty minutes late. CSX then proceeded to lose another hour and 26 minutes on the trip. #30(15) arrived in Washington, DC at 7:56p, six hours and 26 minutes late. Hope no one was planning anything upon arrival in DC...

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(16) is doing somewhat better; it arrived in Pittsburgh at 8:12a. This puts the train at a mere two hours and 42 minutes late.

I should also make it known that among the first things I tell people contemplating an Amtrak trip, I tell them to ignore their watches. Even so, six plus hours off the timecard is ridiculous.

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(16)'s final scorecard: 4:02 late into WAS. It's not six hours late (hurray!), but even so, four hours plus off the timecard is ridiculous.

I'll edit this post later to reflect the arrival time into Martinsburg, WV.

EDIT: Arrival time into MRB for #30(16): 3:30p, 4:10 late.

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(17) into Pittsburgh: 7:40a, two hours and ten minutes late. The same train into Washington, DC: 4:30p, three hours late.

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(18) into Pittsburgh: 6:44a, one hour and 14 minutes late. As of the original posting, #30(18) is expected into Cumberland, MD at 11:09, 1:25 off the timecard.

EDIT: #30(18) arrived in Cumberland, MD at 11:11a, 1:27 off the timecard. It terminated in Washington at 2:59p, 1:29 late.

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(19) into Pittsburgh: as of this posting, 2:30 late. NS's dispatchers must know #44 does not depart the 'Burgh until 1:20p.

EDIT: #30(19) arrived in Pittsburgh at 7:48a, two hours and 18 minutes late. It terminated in Washington DC at 4:10p, 2:40 late.

 

[Guest]

#30(20) into Pittsburgh: 7:35a, two hours and five minutes off the timecard.

One side effect: #42(21) departed Pittsburgh at 7:50a, 30 minutes late. Nice.

 

[Sam Damon]

Oh, yes, that was me who forgot to login on the last post.

#30(21) into Pittsburgh this morning: 7:28a, one hour and 58 minutes late.

Chain reaction: #42(22) departed at 7:40a, 20 minutes late.

For the record, #30(20) made it into Washington, DC at 4:27p, two hours, 57 minutes late. To put it a different way, CSX delayed the train an additional 55 minutes between Pittsburgh and Washington, after NS delayed it 2:05 to begin with.

As for #42(21), it lost an additional six minutes getting into Harrisburg, PA, arriving at 1:21p. It terminated at NYP at 5:17p, 22 minutes late.

I think Amtrak's OTP would improve if more people started posting OTP stats on a daily basis. Kinda like "water torture" for the freight RRs which do not attempt to run Amtrak according to the timetable.

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(22) into Pittsburgh: 7:21a, two hours, 51 minutes late, and one minute after the Pennsylvanian, #42 is supposed to depart.

#42(23) departed Pittsburgh at 7:36a, 16 minutes late.

For the record, #30(21) arrived in Washington, DC at 4:46p, 3:16 late. This means CSX delayed the train out of Pittsburgh an additional hour and 18 minutes from the one hour and 58 minute deficit NS gave the train to begin with.

Should it surprise anyone that, in the terse words on page A-3.2 of Amtrak's March 2007 monthly performance report, "demand for the Cardinal, Capitol, California Zephyr, and Lake Shore Limited remains weak"?

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(23) into Pittsburgh: 8:02a, three hours, two minutes late, and 42 minutes after the Pennsylvanian, #42 is supposed to depart. It terminated in Washington, DC at 5:22p, three hours and 52 minutes late. This means CSX managed to lose another 50 minutes between Pittsburgh, and Washington, DC. CSX seems to be consistent in that regard. Of course, we understand CSX's finger-pointing at NS.

Chain reaction: #42(24) departed Pittsburgh at 8:23a, one hour and three minutes late. The terminal departure delay ensured #42(24) could not make up any time; it terminated at NYP at 6:26p, one hour and 31 minutes late.

One would think there would be someone at NS realizing that if they hose #30, they also hose their Pittsburgh line dispatchers to an extent. Or perhaps their "impedance" model of traffic doesn't have Amtrak built into it.

On to today's trains: #30(24) as of this posting has an ETA of 7:00a, 1:30 late.

 

[frj1983]

Should it surprise anyone that, in the terse words on page A-3.2 of Amtrak's March 2007 monthly performance report, "demand for the Cardinal, Capitol, California Zephyr, and Lake Shore Limited remains weak"?

Sam,

Hate to post such a short question, but do you think anyone within Amtrak Management makes the connection?????

And do you think they even have a plan to deal with it?????

 

[AlanB]

Should it surprise anyone that, in the terse words on page A-3.2 of Amtrak's March 2007 monthly performance report, "demand for the Cardinal, Capitol, California Zephyr, and Lake Shore Limited remains weak"?

Sam,

Hate to post such a short question, but do you think anyone within Amtrak Management makes the connection?????

And do you think they even have a plan to deal with it?????

Amtrak management is more than aware of the connection. VP Emmett Fremaux has more than once stated his desire to make the Capitol Limited the flagship train east of Chicago, modeled on the EB's sucess. However he has stated that he can't do that, until the time keeping problems are resolved or at least majorly improved.

Emmett has gone on to say that Amtrak has been considering several different options in an attempt to improve things. Things that I've heard are being discussed include, sending the Capitol west from Pittsburgh on the old Three Rivers route, sending it north from Toledo to near Detroit and then west on the high speed Michigan line, and of course trying to push NS to handle things better especially with regard to the congestion being created by the rebuilding of the Elkhart yard.

 

[Sam Damon]

Sam,
Hate to post such a short question, but do you think anyone within Amtrak Management makes the connection?????

And do you think they even have a plan to deal with it?????

frj1983,

I'm sure there are some within Amtrak management making the connection. I'm just not sure there's enough of them. <_< There are times when I think Amtrak's management is too NEC-centered for its own good.

VP Emmett Fremaux seems to me motivated and intelligent, but he's one guy, and there are only so many hours in the day. I've had the chance to see him present the Amtrak case, and to briefly chat. As I indicated, I think he "gets" the big picture, but others on the NEC do not.

As for "having a plan to deal with it" besides beating up NS and CSX, what is there to do?

The CL and LSL hit a number of large cities in Ohio, admittedly not at the best of hours. Want to try rerouting either one of them? Where would one put them? Alan mentioned looking at the Three Rivers route. Been there, done that, I say. CSX timekeeping on that line was an oxymoron.

Old PRR mainline? Still there, in parts of a shortline, but the signaling and other good stuff was yanked up by Conrail, and it didn't hit the Ohio cities mentioned. PRR Panhandle line? Gone, pulled up. PATransit runs light rail vehicles on part of the RoW. The rails were there until 1996 or so between McKees Rocks, PA and Weirton, WV, but now the RoW is a walking trail.

Ex-B&O lines? Gone since 1985 or so. Grafton, WV to Parkersburg, WV is now the "North Bend Rail Trail" IIRC. The B&O "Old Main" through Moundsville, WV and Wheeling, WV was pulled up about 1987 or so.

East-west railroad routes across Ohio are clogged, and the answer from the politicians? Build some "truck-only" lanes on I-70. Wonderful.

 

[Sam Damon]

#30(24) into Pittsburgh: 7:28a, two hours, 58 minutes late, and eight minutes after the Pennsylvanian, #42 is supposed to depart. It terminated in Washington, DC at 4:57p, three hours and 27 minutes late.

Chain reaction: #42(25) departed Pittsburgh at 8:18a, 58 minutes late. It arrived at NYP at 5:26p, 31 minutes late. Overall, NS has made a shambles of the EB Pennsylvanian timekeeping since #30's departure from Chicago was moved to 7:05p.

As for #30(25), right now Amtrak.com estimates its arrival into Pittsburgh at 6:00a, 30 minutes late.

 

[had8ley]

Sam,
Hate to post such a short question, but do you think anyone within Amtrak Management makes the connection?????

And do you think they even have a plan to deal with it?????

frj1983,

I'm sure there are some within Amtrak management making the connection. I'm just not sure there's enough of them. <_< There are times when I think Amtrak's management is too NEC-centered for its own good.

VP Emmett Fremaux seems to me motivated and intelligent, but he's one guy, and there are only so many hours in the day. I've had the chance to see him present the Amtrak case, and to briefly chat. As I indicated, I think he "gets" the big picture, but others on the NEC do not.

As for "having a plan to deal with it" besides beating up NS and CSX, what is there to do?

The CL and LSL hit a number of large cities in Ohio, admittedly not at the best of hours. Want to try rerouting either one of them? Where would one put them? Alan mentioned looking at the Three Rivers route. Been there, done that, I say. CSX timekeeping on that line was an oxymoron.

Old PRR mainline? Still there, in parts of a shortline, but the signaling and other good stuff was yanked up by Conrail, and it didn't hit the Ohio cities mentioned. PRR Panhandle line? Gone, pulled up. PATransit runs light rail vehicles on part of the RoW. The rails were there until 1996 or so between McKees Rocks, PA and Weirton, WV, but now the RoW is a walking trail.

Ex-B&O lines? Gone since 1985 or so. Grafton, WV to Parkersburg, WV is now the "North Bend Rail Trail" IIRC. The B&O "Old Main" through Moundsville, WV and Wheeling, WV was pulled up about 1987 or so.

East-west railroad routes across Ohio are clogged, and the answer from the politicians? Build some "truck-only" lanes on I-70. Wonderful.

Sam;

One blaring example why Amtrak will NEVER receive better treatment at getting over the road is money. Just look at the stock prices for the major railroads. The UP is at $120. I was given 200 shares at $55 ten years ago and thought it would never go any higher. All the other majors are doing just as well or better. Amtrak has no monetary clout and the AAR probably laughs when Amtrak complains about OTP. There are major lobbyists who would love to see Amtrak just go away so that the freight roads could use their main lines to stack up inbound trains at overloaded yard points. I'm one of the purists that's just glad to get there even if the diner does run out of food; getting new riders to believe in the system, as it exists now, is a tough sell.

 

[had8ley]

#30(16) is doing somewhat better; it arrived in Pittsburgh at 8:12a. This puts the train at a mere two hours and 42 minutes late.
I should also make it known that among the first things I tell people contemplating an Amtrak trip, I tell them to ignore their watches. Even so, six plus hours off the timecard is ridiculous.

Don't put them on the Sunset Limited~ it was only 20 something hours late one day last week. Almost a whole day is sinful. Gives new definition to the jingle, "There's something different about riding a train."

 

[Sam Damon]

There are major lobbyists who would love to see Amtrak just go away so that the freight roads could use their main lines to stack up inbound trains at overloaded yard points.

That is indeed one of the huge ironies of Amtrak's existence these days. 50 years ago, the railroads said, "Let us drop passengers so we can make money running freight trains." Today, they say, "We make so much money we need to get rid of the remaining Amtrak passenger trains."

I'm one of the purists that's just glad to get there even if the diner does run out of food; getting new riders to believe in the system, as it exists now, is a tough sell.

Agreed.

OTOH, if we on this and similar forums don't attract people to ride on passenger trains, who will?

 

[Sam Damon]

Don't put them on the Sunset Limited~ it was only 20 something hours late one day last week. Almost a whole day is sinful. Gives new definition to the jingle, "There's something different about riding a train."

It's beyond merely sinful; this harkens back to Commodore Vanderbilt's "The public be d@#&ed!"

To me, the amazing thing is people are still on the Sunset Limited, even after UP has been doing its level best to kill it.

Anyway, catching up on the EB Capitol Limited into Pittsburgh...

#30(25): into Pittsburgh at 6:15a, 45 minutes late. 15 minutes behind an optimistic Amtrak.com, but still better than what we've been seeing. The train arrived in Washington, DC at 4:15p, 2:45 late. Perhaps the CSX dispatcher was shocked to see the train running at the time it was running...

#30(26): into Pittsburgh at 5:58a, 28 minutes late; into Washington, DC at 1:49p, 19 minutes late. CSX managed to make up nine minutes on a Sunday run. (I believe for DOT statistics, that qualifies as "on time.") Probably #30(26) has had the best run over the line in months. I can't remember the last time the EB Capitol Limited was OT into WAS, or the WB into CHI.

 

[AlanB]

#30(26): into Pittsburgh at 5:58a, 28 minutes late; into Washington, DC at 1:49p, 19 minutes late. CSX managed to make up nine minutes on a Sunday run. (I believe for DOT statistics, that qualifies as "on time.") Probably #30(26) has had the best run over the line in months. I can't remember the last time the EB Capitol Limited was OT into WAS, or the WB into CHI.

Yes, 19 down qualifies as on time according to the DOT.

 

[PRR 60]

#30(26): into Pittsburgh at 5:58a, 28 minutes late; into Washington, DC at 1:49p, 19 minutes late. CSX managed to make up nine minutes on a Sunday run. (I believe for DOT statistics, that qualifies as "on time.") Probably #30(26) has had the best run over the line in months. I can't remember the last time the EB Capitol Limited was OT into WAS, or the WB into CHI.

Yes, 19 down qualifies as on time according to the DOT.

To the best of my knowledge, the US DOT does not have on-time standards for intercity rail (Amtrak). The standards are internal to Amtrak: 10 minute tolerance for trips up to 300 miles in length, 30 minute tolerance for trips over 300 miles.

The only exception is Acela. Even though Boston - Washington is over 300 miles, Amtrak applies the 10 minute tolerance for all Acela trips. This is a recent change brought about by the current Amtrak management who felt (rightly) that a 30 minute tolerance was not appropriate for Acela timekeeping standards.

 

[Sam Damon]

To the best of my knowledge, the US DOT does not have on-time standards for intercity rail (Amtrak). The standards are internal to Amtrak: 10 minute tolerance for trips up to 300 miles in length, 30 minute tolerance for trips over 300 miles.
The only exception is Acela. Even though Boston - Washington is over 300 miles, Amtrak applies the 10 minute tolerance for all Acela trips. This is a recent change brought about by the current Amtrak management who felt (rightly) that a 30 minute tolerance was not appropriate for Acela timekeeping standards.

Mr. Pittsburgher,

I always appreciate your contributions to to forum. Gotta give you credit, usually, you're sharp as a tack. In this case, I've got to refer you to the Bureau of Transportation and Statistics website. BTS is part of the US DOT, and was created to administer transportation data collection, analysis, and reporting in the USA.

Once there, you can search for a table like this one. Towards the bottom of the page, you'll see BTS classifies trains as being late according to the following criteria:

Trip Length(miles) / Delayed departure time (minutes)

0-250 / 10

251-350 / 15

351-450 / 20

451-550 / 25

>551 / 30

This is how an Amtrak train can be "on-time" as far as DOT is concerned, and still be 19 minutes late. In this example, the train must not travel more than 450 miles for DOT to consider it "on-time." Hope this helps.