- Joined
- May 17, 2015
- Messages
- 2,807
Does Amtrak own any of the intermediate stations along the LSL route? If any Amtrak staff is on site, they are renting square footage from the local owner.
Lake Shore Limited and Train Length Issues
- Thread starter jis
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
You can look up that information for each station at: http://www.greatamericanstations.com/station-listing/
Often, even when Amtrak owns the facility, the platform is owned by the host railroad (CSXT in case of many stations on the Empire Corridor).
- Joined
- May 17, 2015
- Messages
- 2,807
Great point, I had forgotten that many platforms are owned by the host RR. On the LSL route all the intermediate stations are owned locally and about a third of the platforms by the host. Too much politics involved to add a few car lengths I think. Better to use that energy elsewhere.
neroden
Engineer
Syracuse and Rochester are both elevated above ground level on berms with street overpasses.
Think about the foundations involved in high platforms in that situation.
Rhinecliff is in a cut and needs new elevators.
Hudson has a junction in the middle of the station and requires really serious redesign.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
IIRC, Hudson's current location is also on a sharp curve raising additional challenges for an HL platform and related "Gaps".
neroden
Engineer
Oh, and Hudson also has a street grade crossing in the middle of the platform. In the same location as the junction, which straddles the grade crossing.
....yeah, Hudson is a *problem*. I believe there was a speculative design for redoing Hudson which involved rerouting the road onto a new overpass, relocating the freight connection north and the junction south, and relocating the platforms off the curve... but I haven't seen even conceptual plans.
....yeah, Hudson is a *problem*. I believe there was a speculative design for redoing Hudson which involved rerouting the road onto a new overpass, relocating the freight connection north and the junction south, and relocating the platforms off the curve... but I haven't seen even conceptual plans.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2003
- Messages
- 8,508
Topic split from the Viewliner II - Part 2 - Production and Delivery topic.
Philly Amtrak Fan
Engineer
Or a second NYP-CHI train via PGH-PHL... like the old days.
When we took the CNN from Toronto to Vancouver the count of passenger carrying cars was 22 not including baggage and engines. So it would seem we could do the same.
Seaboard92
Engineer
I've worked on a consist of thirty cars before so it's definitely possible. But it also took us half an hour to load out and detrain because we didn't fit on a single platform.
You can run a long train as long as you have enough locomotives to handle the hotel load and tractive effort. And as long as you have enough equipment and crew it's doable.
Now making it efficient on platforms would mean extending platforms to the longer lengths. In theory in Chicago you could run a long consist of you stop on the thru track. But none of the other stations could handle that long of a train.
The Canadian can get away with it because the majority of the passengers board and detrain at Toronto, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Jasper, Kamloops, and Vancouver. The flag stops are fairly easy to spot the car passengers are getting in on what little platform there is.
It should be noted CSX will not run any passenger movement over thirty cars in length. However the Auto Pain is exempt from that rule.
Today’s LSL is about three cars shorter than it was in the early 80s when it had a 3rd BOS coach, both a diner and a lounge for the NY section, and a NY Slumbercoach in addition to the two sleepers. Throw in a couple of private cars and I saw more than one 18 car LSLs being pulled by two F40s.
And there was the Amtrak version of the "Train to Everywhere", the combined Zephyr/Pioneer/Desert Wind that a few of us got to expierence. ( I lost my Retirement in Vegas and missed the Train!)
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
What is the limit on the number of single level cars that 1MW HEP can power these days? It would seem that that would be hard limit on the length of single level trains these days since Amtrak (and possibly FRA and possibly current technical limitations) does allow the use of two separate HEP sources on a train.
I know in other countries EOGs (End on Generation) and HOGs (Head on Generation) powered trains of 26 or so cars are not uncommon.
I know in other countries EOGs (End on Generation) and HOGs (Head on Generation) powered trains of 26 or so cars are not uncommon.
- Joined
- May 17, 2015
- Messages
- 2,807
Wow! I remember the LSL coaches fairly full every time I traveled on it which for a while was every 4-6 weeks, now it have been a few years since I traveled on it.
Good question. I do know that by going to all LED lighting Amtrak was able to add a car to Auto Train (now 16); I'd guess around 20 single-level cars would max out the HEP. HEP as currently designed only allows for one power source. I suppose one could loop at the middle of the train and put an HEP-only engine at the end, but then you'd be dragging that engine along with the (long) train.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
I am told that Canadian HEP is different from US HEP. But I have never yet worked out the details of it in my mind, so don;t know in what way they are different.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
They might in some places. But my understanding is that that is not the case on the Canadian or the Ocean or the Corridor trains.Could be they rely on old-tech batteries and axle generators, at least on a supplemental basis? I kind of doubt that, but, who knows?
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2003
- Messages
- 8,508
There are a lot of similarities with some significant differences.
Both the Amtrak and Canadian HEP systems use four sets of 4/0, 480V, three-phase cables through the train (train line). Both provide 1200kW HEP total capacity for the train. So the maximum load that can be supported by the Amtrak and the Canadian systems is the same.
The difference is in the way the power is distributed from the generator source(s) to the cars. Amtrak takes all four cables and ties them together at a junction point in each car. Electrically, the four cables act as one cable with four parallel paths. Since the four cables are connected, there can be only one generator as the source (barring the very difficult trick of frequency synchronizing two generators in two separate locomotives). Effectively, the Amtrak system is one generator, one circuit, and a failure anywhere in that circuit kills the entire system.
The Canadian system also uses the four 4/0 cables, but acting as four circuits. Each car is wired to use one of the four circuits, with the cars alternating from Train Line 1 (TL1) to 2, 3 and 4 to even the load distribution among the circuit. The cables run with two on the left side and two on the right side. Those pairs of cables can be sourced from separate generators (two locomotives) - one locomotive powering the two left-side circuits, and one the two right-side circuit. Since the left and right pairs are electrically separate, synchronizing the two generators is not required.
The Canadian system is set up for reliability. If a failure occurs on one side of the system (left or right), or with one of the two generators, automatic transfer switches connect the affected cars to the other side of the electrical system, and load shedding devices reduce the power load in each car to stay within the half system capacity. Despite the fault, train power stays on, although lighting, HVAC and other load will be reduced. With Amtrak, a fault must be cleared for the system to work.
So, basically, the two systems are physically similar and have the same capacity. However, a schematic diagrams of the Amtrak system would be one line from a single generator to all the cars, and the Canadian system would be four lines, two from each of two generators, and each car being fed from just one of the four lines, with the cars alternating the lines.
Clear (as mud)?
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes...clear (as mud)!
So...if I understand what you are saying, the VIA system has two locomotives supplying HEP to the train at the same time? While Amtrak trains with two locomotives have just one supplying HEP at a time (if one goes down, the other one then goes on line?)
I still don't get why VIA can run a much longer train, if both supply the same total KWH at a time....
So...if I understand what you are saying, the VIA system has two locomotives supplying HEP to the train at the same time? While Amtrak trains with two locomotives have just one supplying HEP at a time (if one goes down, the other one then goes on line?)
I still don't get why VIA can run a much longer train, if both supply the same total KWH at a time....
Ryan
Court Jester
The Via train has two generators Operating at the same time and can therefore provide twice as much power as the Amtrak train only using one generator at a time.
