LD Subsidies

[Pastor Dave]

Greetings All!

I'm hoping someone might enlighten me on a gnawing subject.

Amtrak is often criticized for receiving government support for survival. But I have to suspect that most commercial airports are subsized by public funds. Am I correct on this?

Dave

 

[caravanman]

Speaking as an atheist, rather than an economist, it seems to me that the public do pay for roads and airport construction. Remember, the goverment funded projects are paid for by the public purse, not by the airlines, so there is a large subsidy, in my opinion..

Ed

ps, I resisted the opportunity to quip about who might enlighten you...

 

[PRR 60]

Speaking as an atheist, rather than an economist, it seems to me that the public do pay for roads and airport construction. Remember, the goverment funded projects are paid for by the public purse, not by the airlines, so there is a large subsidy, in my opinion..
Ed

ps, I resisted the opportunity to quip about who might enlighten you...

I think the airlines, both here and in the UK, would disagree with you on airports being a "subsidy". Airlines, and airline passengers, pay dearly for using the "public" airports. With few exceptions, airports are money-making facilities and cost the general taxpayer nothing.

 

[caravanman]

Do airlines pay to build and maintain the roads to the airports?

Ed

 

[PetalumaLoco]

Speaking as an atheist, rather than an economist, it seems to me that the public do pay for roads and airport construction. Remember, the goverment funded projects are paid for by the public purse, not by the airlines, so there is a large subsidy, in my opinion..
Ed

ps, I resisted the opportunity to quip about who might enlighten you...

I think the airlines, both here and in the UK, would disagree with you on airports being a "subsidy". Airlines, and airline passengers, pay dearly for using the "public" airports. With few exceptions, airports are money-making facilities and cost the general taxpayer nothing.

Hah!

From FACTS ABOUT TRANSPORTATION SUBSIDIES

 

[PRR 60]

Hah!From FACTS ABOUT TRANSPORTATION SUBSIDIES

Hah, back at you.

Every dime of federal grants for airports comes from the Airport and Airways Trust Find. Every dime of the Airport and Airways trust fund comes from airline ticket taxes, fees, and aviation fuel tax. Not one cent of general fund federal taxes is used for federal airport grants. Now, if you consider using taxes paid only by air travelers for airport improvements a "subsidy", then you're right: airports are subsidized. But, I don't. I consider it a user fee not unlike bridge tolls. If you fly, you pay. If you don't fly, you don't pay. And, even with that, airlines often pay for airports improvements themselves. Terminal A-West at PHL, the $250 million international terminal, was 100% funded by US Airways.

The only direct federal subsidy of air travel is a portion of the FAA budget for air traffic control operation. That amounts to about $2 billion per year, more or less. Plus, there is another $50 million per year of general tax revenue used for the Essential Air Service program (another $50 million comes from airline fees).

Airlines pay a fortune to use major airports. Air travelers pay another fortune to use airports. In many cases, airline tickets are taxed at a higher rate than cigarettes. Consider that the next time you buy an Amtrak ticket with no taxes and fees of any kind.

 

[Bob Dylan]

How much do airlines pay to utilize the airways that are controlled by ATC as opposed to Amtrak having to pay private railroads to use their tracks,dispatchers etc.? The actual cost of supporting airlines and highways is in the trillions of dollars whereas Amtrak has barely scraped by on the relative peanuts that Congress and our Presidents doled out!

Have you wondered why Amtrak has the majority of travelers on the NEC where Amtrak does own/control most of the route when there is plenty of flights to take? And the parking lots that we used to call freeways and express ways are now becoming toll roads for private profit subsidized by the government!People vote with their ticket money when given a choice and an equal playing field!More and more are voting for trains!

 

[PRR 60]

Do airlines pay to build and maintain the roads to the airports?
Ed

It depends. Typically, most public roads leading to the airport are funded from highway transportation sources - federal, state, or local. There is a de-mark point where the highways become the airport's responsibility, often where the roads enter the airport property. That is where the airport funding takes over. That is not a hard and fast rule - it can vary from project to project. It is not unlike the way highway improvements are funded for stadiums, retail centers, and even transit stations.

 

[jis]

I think the airlines, both here and in the UK, would disagree with you on airports being a "subsidy". Airlines, and airline passengers, pay dearly for using the "public" airports. With few exceptions, airports are money-making facilities and cost the general taxpayer nothing.

As long as pollution of various sorts is not considered a cost among other things

 

[PRR 60]

How much do airlines pay to utilize the airways that are controlled by ATC as opposed to Amtrak having to pay private railroads to use their tracks,dispatchers etc.?

The ATC system operating cost is about $9 billion per year. For FY2010, about $3 billion of that is paid from general tax revenue. The remainder comes from the AATF (ticket taxes and fees).

...Have you wondered why Amtrak has the majority of travelers on the NEC where Amtrak does own/control most of the route when there is plenty of flights to take? And the parking lots that we used to call freeways and express ways are now becoming toll roads for private profit subsidized by the government!People vote with their ticket money when given a choice and an equal playing field!More and more are voting for trains!

I have never wondered why people prefer Amtrak New York to Boston or New York to Washington. It's simple. It's the best way to go. It's the same reason that air dominates New York to Chicago. Quite frankly, if rail cannot dominate 250-mile routes with three hour travel times, they should quit trying.

And, in the interest of accuracy, airport grants did get some general tax funds this year in the form of stimulus grants ($1.1 billion). All the pigs lined up at the stimulus trough, the Amtrak and airports were certainly there for the feeding frenzy

By the way, Pennsylvania's two attempts to place tolls on Interstate 80 were denied by the US DOT. An uncommon example of good judgement by the Feds.

 

[jis]

By the way, Pennsylvania's two attempts to place tolls on Interstate 80 were denied by the US DOT. An uncommon example of good judgement by the Feds.

huh? I though it was uncommonly bad judgment in keeping with the entire foundation of the interstate program. It makes more sense to charge direct fees for a service than hide it in the form of taxation on gasoline and what nots. They should reduce the federal gas tax and toll the entire interstate system. That would more clearly reflect the costs and sources of covering the same. People like me who seldom use the interstate system will not have to continue subsidizing them disproportionately that way.

 

[PRR 60]

By the way, Pennsylvania's two attempts to place tolls on Interstate 80 were denied by the US DOT. An uncommon example of good judgement by the Feds.

huh? I though it was uncommonly bad judgment in keeping with the entire foundation of the interstate program. It makes more sense to charge direct fees for a service than hide it in the form of taxation on gasoline and what nots. They should reduce the federal gas tax and toll the entire interstate system. That would more clearly reflect the costs and sources of covering the same. People like me who seldom use the interstate system will not have to continue subsidizing them disproportionately that way.

And that is where the proposal ran into trouble.

The US DOT will permit tolling of tax-funded interstates only when the tolls are restricted for use to that facility only. The proposed tolling of I-80 was not to simply pay for I-80 maintenance and improvements. It was intended to pay for I-80 plus a whole basket load of other state goodies, not the least of which was transit subsidies to Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. It was a not very well disguised transportation tax for general use. The Pennsylvania plan did not even come close to meeting the DOT requirement and the DOT rightly tossed the plan out - not once, but twice.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Taxing highways for transit isn't only the right thing to do, it is what we NEED to do.

 

[PRR 60]

Taxing highways for transit isn't only the right thing to do, it is what we NEED to do.

I could not agree more. But, use an actual tax on everyone, not just on drivers on one interstate in upstate Pennsylvania.

I-80 was chosen for the tolling proposal for a simple reason - it has a very large proportion of out of state vehicles. Governor Rendell thought that was a great plan. Lets wack New Jersey and New York drivers (who do not vote in PA) to help pay for SEPTA. Of course, some poor upstate PA folks would pay the tolls as well, but they really don't matter to the state. Fortunately, the federal DOT takes a dim view of that sort of thing.

If the desire is to fund transit from drivers, use a gas tax. Everybody pays proportionate to their use. That is fair. Having drivers on one road in a remote part of the state pay the tab is not.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I personally prefer an ad valorum tax on roads and highways based strictly on use, and varied by how dense the usage on that road is at the time. I believe the British call this "congestion charging". I addition to a gas tax, I mean.

 

[Pastor Dave]

Thanks for everyone's great responses. Sure does provide lots of stuff to think about.

As a resident of Northeast PA, I travel Route 80 at least 5 times a week and wonder how my driving habits might change if it became a toll-road.

I don't know what my per-trip additional cost would be if I had to pay my fare share on Amtrak.

I travel 12 - 15 times per year on Amtrak in the Northeast, Silver Service, Auto-Train and usually a trip or two on the LSL or CL. Any idea how much I'm being subsidized on their various routes?

Dave

 

[AlanB]

I travel 12 - 15 times per year on Amtrak in the Northeast, Silver Service, Auto-Train and usually a trip or two on the LSL or CL. Any idea how much I'm being subsidized on their various routes?

All amounts are in cents per passenger mile and reflect the average costs. Sleeper pax actually pay for more of their costs and therefore help to reduce the overall subsidy to coach riders.

• Silver Star - 27.6
  
• Silver Meteor - 23.6
  
• Auto Train - 9.1
  
• Lake Shore - 26.7
  
• Capitol - 23.3