heavesrock
Train Attendant
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2008
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What exactly does it mean for a train to be "Limited?"
"Limited" Trains
- Thread starter heavesrock
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transit54
Conductor
I believe that they were "limited stop" trains, in other words, express trains. I could be completely wrong.
battalion51
Engineer
IIRC, way back in the day of railroading it generally meant Limited stops. They would stop pretty much only in the big towns, not stopping at every place along the way. Other trains had a tendency to stop many times. Again, IIRC.
sky12065
Conductor
The following definition for "Limited" was found online:
"accommodating a restricted number of passengers, making fewer stops than on the regular runs, and often charging extra fare: said of a train"
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Pretty much. For instance: The CL makes LESS stops than the Penny, and goes nearly twice as far.
Ok,this is going to be tricky. I know what I want to say but do not know how to say it so be patient with me.
FIrst, it does not mean anything today, it is purely from the past. Just an inherited name, like Sunset Limited.
Next, it did not mean limited in a negative way, such as "limited food service".
Instead it meant limited in kind of a reverse way from that, as in a fancy super duper way, like "limited to the best". Or, maybe "limited to sleeping cars and no coaches" in an extreme example.Limited number of stops in an excellent use of the term .
So if a train had "limited" in its name it usually meant better service, faster schedules, fewer stops, more amenities. At least when it was so-named.
Now, trains changed a lot through the years-- much more than they do today. Trains could decline in quality, cut out the lounge cars,slow down, etc. But if such a train was named limited, they normally did not drop the word from the title, thus creating a situation where it meant less and less.
They began to build better and faster trains than that, with new sounding names, which(if made of lightweight construction) might be called streamliners. Sooooooo, some trains which kept the name limited in their title sometimes really did not deserve the name in later years. So it became more and more meaningless,I'm talking about the 1950's and 60's.
When dieselization and streamlining(made out of lightweight materials for better speed and efficiency)came along the concept of "streamliner"' kind of out-dated the word "limited" as a buzz word, codeword for better service.
Looking through today's Amtrak timetables it looks to me like those trains which are called limited did justly deserve it in the pre-Amtrak days, as being steamliners with good service, or,shall we say,kind of limited to good service. The Capitol Limtied and Sunset Limited were grand old trains in years back (compared with some other trains on their pre-Amtrak routes) fully deserving of that name.
Funny thing, the Crescent was called the "Crescent Limited"and deservedly so when inaugurated in 1929(or whenever). But when it was completely re-equipped as a stainless steel streamliner in 1949-59 the word "Limited" was dropped from its title. This might be a sign of the times that the word limited was ceasing to mean anything. At the same time, the slower, more stops Piedmont Limited, on the same route, and only partcially stremlined kept the word in its title for years to come.
n fact Amtrak has not inherited the name of any train which was a "slacker" in the old days, whether it was called "limited" or not.
FIrst, it does not mean anything today, it is purely from the past. Just an inherited name, like Sunset Limited.
Next, it did not mean limited in a negative way, such as "limited food service".
Instead it meant limited in kind of a reverse way from that, as in a fancy super duper way, like "limited to the best". Or, maybe "limited to sleeping cars and no coaches" in an extreme example.Limited number of stops in an excellent use of the term .
So if a train had "limited" in its name it usually meant better service, faster schedules, fewer stops, more amenities. At least when it was so-named.
Now, trains changed a lot through the years-- much more than they do today. Trains could decline in quality, cut out the lounge cars,slow down, etc. But if such a train was named limited, they normally did not drop the word from the title, thus creating a situation where it meant less and less.
They began to build better and faster trains than that, with new sounding names, which(if made of lightweight construction) might be called streamliners. Sooooooo, some trains which kept the name limited in their title sometimes really did not deserve the name in later years. So it became more and more meaningless,I'm talking about the 1950's and 60's.
When dieselization and streamlining(made out of lightweight materials for better speed and efficiency)came along the concept of "streamliner"' kind of out-dated the word "limited" as a buzz word, codeword for better service.
Looking through today's Amtrak timetables it looks to me like those trains which are called limited did justly deserve it in the pre-Amtrak days, as being steamliners with good service, or,shall we say,kind of limited to good service. The Capitol Limtied and Sunset Limited were grand old trains in years back (compared with some other trains on their pre-Amtrak routes) fully deserving of that name.
Funny thing, the Crescent was called the "Crescent Limited"and deservedly so when inaugurated in 1929(or whenever). But when it was completely re-equipped as a stainless steel streamliner in 1949-59 the word "Limited" was dropped from its title. This might be a sign of the times that the word limited was ceasing to mean anything. At the same time, the slower, more stops Piedmont Limited, on the same route, and only partcially stremlined kept the word in its title for years to come.
n fact Amtrak has not inherited the name of any train which was a "slacker" in the old days, whether it was called "limited" or not.
sky12065
Conductor
IMHO, I don't think that comparing the CL to the Penny makes the CL a true limited train because they are entirely two different routes.
Theoritically speaking, if the two trains happened to be the same route, then there is the possibility that the CL might fit the limited definition if the stops on the CL were a reduction from the stops on the same route that the Penny travels.
Perhaps at one time "back in the day" the CL was a limited train but today I feel that the CL is limited in name only!
Aside from all this, it leads to yet another question; what's the difference between a limited train and an express train? Speed... distance... or is it either or both?
sky12065
Conductor
Bill, nice comprehensive post! I didn't see it before I prepared my post but I like the different perspective on the question. What's funny is that I was pretty much thinking the same thing you stated in your post (quoted above) when I began to prepare mine! Anyway, I'll end my message now and make it... Limited! :lol:
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Thanks for the nice note. I appreciate it after typing such a long detailed post. I note you mention "express". I would say that has become even more meaningless than limited,or became such much longer ago.
Very few trains in my childhood (I am 64) still called themselves expresses. For example, the Southern RR had six trains a day from WAS to ATL,five of which had names. The fifth slowest of the lot was called the"Washington Atlanta New Orleans Express". What a mouthful, and that for a train which was neither an express nor did it even go to NOL, mail cars may have, but not coaches. Of course,when the train was originally named, the name may have fit!!
And as you noted the names Amtrak chose from the past, all meant more about their route (at least the end points, that is), rather than comparing one train with another (today). As noted, the word limited no longer means anything.
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
The CL inherited its name like the Sunset, however, the point remains the same. The Penny stops in every single town en route to Philly-- the CL's stops are very large stops for the most part, (not including either routes terminus) ALC (which serves Akron and Canton) CLE, PGH, CUM, ect.
the_traveler
Engineer
Here's a better example - and with two trains running the same route! The Maple Leaf and the LSL both run the same route between NYP-ALB-BUF. The LSL does not stop at POU (WB), RHI (WB), HUD (WB) or ROM (either direction) - but the Maple Leaf does stop at all of those.
Although as Bill said - today it doesn't mean anything, it's a name only.
ACL I think it a pure coincidence that he Penny stops more and is not called "Limited". I do not think anyone at Amtrak thought about calling it the Pennsylvania Limited and then decided against it because it stopped too much. Acuaully,it only stops everywhere there is a station
Almost every route on Amtrak today used to have a lot more stops than there are stations today..
Note that todays timetable shows about 9 stops between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg. Old timetables showed about 15. Thus a train which only stopped at about 9 could be could be considered limited, whether that was in the name or not.
Any chance you had time to read my very long post above? I went to great pains to try to explain that the word really means nothing today.
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
See what I just bolded.
Furthermore, that is 9 stops between, what, 300 miles? The CL has the same in twice that distance. If either one is a "limited" train, it is the CL.
i am not arguing that the title is rather pointless... but if the CL did as many stops per mile as the Penny it would take twice as long to do its route.
I suddenly see a common ground here. Granted the names are a coincidence, but........if Amtrak were to be born today from scratch with all its trains yet to be named, and with today's active stations, and the name limited still meant something, then,yes, I guess the CL could be considered a "limited" in a way the Penny would not. Which I guess is your point all along.
And let us keep in mind that CL was a fine train in it's past--when it was named Limited it no doubt deserved the name at that time. Some representive CL equipment is or was on display at the Baltimore RR museum. Well worth a look if it is still there after the roof caved in few winters ago.
ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Exactly. I am not saying that these trains stop near as more as the old Amtrak or even pre-Amtrak days, however-- I believe we need to put things into a modern context. And in today's routes, it is a Limited Stop line.
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Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Compare the Lake Shore Limited schedule through to Buffalo, to the various Empire Service trains that make that run. It makes less stops- although it is not particularly faster, that is a result of padding.
wrjensen
Service Attendant
Would not be the example today would be the NEC regional vs the Acela. You could go even as far as some of the later regional vs the peak hours. They stop at Aberdeen, MD and Newark DE which others do not. There are also a Acela 5:00A out of DC that does not make all the stops.
sky12065
Conductor
A theoritical thought; is it possible that the "limited" designations were simply kept by Amtrak out of historical respect for some of the trains from the hay-days of railroading rather than because they fit any definition of the term? :mellow:
Yes, that is the point I have tried to thrash out with painstaking detail (examples, etc). You summed it up in one sentence. Guess my posts on the subject scared people away because they were too wordy.
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
That's more of an 'express'...
I have had the same problems many a time and oft. ((Bastardization of Henry IV, Part I: Act I Scene ii))
Long Train Runnin'
Engineer
Quick thought about that about this. I think Amtrak didn't go around changing names when they started. For two reasons one to honor the legdends that these trains were. Also, why change the names that people were familar with?
I could not agree more.
G
Guest
Guest
I always thought that "limited" meant "luxury", as in the Ford Explorer Limited.
Long Train Runnin'
Engineer
Thanks usually I only make a few of myself when I have a thought like that.I was not even close to being around when Amtrak came around. So my question about Amtrak coming around is this. Did Amtrak have to win over the customers who usually road with the freight railroads, or were people trusting and excited about these new government run trains?
Yes, that is a good way of putting it. Look at the post I made on 1/12 at 11:17 a.m. I tried my best to explain it. And certainly, luxury is one way of looking at it.
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