Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[jis]

Extremely doubt they’ll be bilevel due to ADA requirements. The elevators required for ADA compliance are notoriously unreliable.

We have had this to and fro on bi-level about half a dozen times already. We have been making all kinds of assumptions about what ADA does or does not require, but I am not sure any of us knows for sure, and I am also not sure that some aspects are not still open for negotiations. I suspect the direction that Amtrak wishes to take will become clear from the RFP, and the final solution will be proposed by the vendors from which Amtrak will pick one (vendor's solution). It is yet to be seen whether Amtrak will encourage or discourage bi-levels. There are strong contingents on both side of the equation in the Amtrak procurement team, is what I have come to understand from talking to people in the know, and no decision has been made so far.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Na it will be ordered in the next year thats 5-6 years plenty of time

See the last Viewliner order for a Guideline on what to expect!

 

[west point]

Have to wonder. Since Amtrak is removing parts from sidelined AX-1s for parts might that be happening or will happen? We may not know for a couple years for sure. Can imagine Amtrak saying we cannot add cars to our present trains as our parked ones have no parts. Also, we cannot start new routes due to lack of Amfleets to provide seats.

Just a WAG. So, do not know exact figure but there are over 55 train sets operating to cover LD routes If 4 coaches and 2 sleepers were added to each one that would require over 380 additional cars + spares. Then new routes CHI <> MSP, DFW <>ATL. and maybe some others.

 

[Jack Davis]

Would be smart for Amtrak to add an order for single-level long distant coaches, dining cars, lounge cars, and sleeping cars. Haveing standardized equipment system-wide would solve many maintenance issues.

This is true but, the SUPERLINER cars are a big draw for many a traveler because they are double decked, high riding, high sight line rail cars. Single decked cars would certainly be easier to take care of, (no climbing up & down stairs) and no worries at low overhangs, (bridges, tunnels, etc.) So yes, an order for the single decked rail cars might be a sensible thing to do for some routes and some maintenance yards.

 

[Jack Davis]

Almost any European manufacturer is quite capable of building sill-less bilevel cars. They do it all the time in Europe. Being able to build body shells is not the issue. Fleet planning and cost of lifetime ownership and ease of operation and maintenance which goes hand in hand are the issues.

You brought up European manufacturers as being capable; correct but then shipping can be costly. Why aren't American manufacturers building what we need? Aren't there any left in America? Great Scott!

 

[MARC Rider]

You brought up European manufacturers as being capable; correct but then shipping can be costly. Why aren't American manufacturers building what we need? Aren't there any left in America? Great Scott!

Uh, all of the American manufacturers of railcars are actually branches of European or Asian companies. Siemens, Stadler, Alstom, Kawasaki, etc. For example, Siemens is a German company, but the stuff they're building for Amtrak is made in a factory in California.

 

[Cal]

Uh, all of the American manufacturers of railcars are actually branches of European or Asian companies. Siemens, Stadler, Alstom, Kawasaki, etc. For example, Siemens is a German company, but the stuff they're building for Amtrak is made in a factory in California.

Yep, and the Siemens Venture is derived from a European railcar. So if European manufacturers can make bi-levels there, that translates to them being able to make bi-levels for Amtrak to US standards.

 

[jis]

You brought up European manufacturers as being capable; correct but then shipping can be costly. Why aren't American manufacturers building what we need? Aren't there any left in America? Great Scott!

There are no American railcar or viable passenger locomotive manufacturers. All the we have are American subsidiaries of European and Japanese and Korean and even Chinese manufacturers.

 

[alanh]

Amtrak also has a "buy American" mandate which pretty much rules out anything assembled outside North America.

 

[jis]

Amtrak also has a "buy American" mandate which pretty much rules out anything assembled outside North America.

Actually it applies to any purchase that involves federal funds, which naturally includes everything Amtrak purchases. There are state commuter agencies that have purchased stuff without using any federal funds that were manufactured abroad and shipped to the buyer in the US.

One example IIRC is NJT's ALP45DPs

 

[railiner]

There are no American railcar or viable passenger locomotive manufacturers. All the we have are American subsidiaries of European and Japanese and Korean and even Chinese manufacturers.

There is at least one...although freight cars only. I wonder if they ever considered expanding into passenger car building? They could probably lure some expert heads over from the foreign owned companies for the right price, to get started...

https://www.trinityrail.com/product...Lp6eZXkEbqrbCmDAPIkQwz0g_B3snddxoChUMQAvD_BwE
https://www.utlx.com/
https://www.gbrx.com/boxcars/

 

[MARC Rider]

Actually it applies to any purchase that involves federal funds, which naturally includes everything Amtrak purchases. There are state commuter agencies that have purchased stuff without using any federal funds that were manufactured abroad and shipped to the buyer in the US.

Sometimes the states insist or at least hint that the cars should me manufactured in a plant in their state. For example the fiasco with the Chinese railcar factory in western Massachusetts and the Kawasaki factory I saw from the train at Yonkers, which apparently builds New York subway cars.

 

[lordsigma]

Who knows we could even see a combination of bilevel and single level. I can see strong arguments both ways. Commonality of the fleet is great for better economies of scale for parts and for spreading the repair work around facilities and is a strong argument for single level. But on the flip side the Auto Train which they certainly seem to consider a key route in the current business is a strong argument for bilevel. Certainly the AT can run single level as it had in the past but the current operation is undoubtedly more efficient with the bilevel cars. I’m honestly torn on the issue and am not sure which I’d pick if I had to make a prediction.

 

[Mailliw]

If you put the pass through at a mezzanine level instead of the upper level it becomes easier to mix and match single and bilevel cars. Accessibility becomes even more complex though.

 

[dlagrua]

Canadian passenger rail is in the same position in replacing Long distance train cars. Some of their Rocky Mountaineer cars look very similar to the Amtrak Superliners but without sleepers. Stadler the manufacturer that built those cars should be able to build new Superliners.

 

[Andrew]

Canadian passenger rail is in the same position in replacing Long distance train cars. Some of their Rocky Mountaineer cars look very similar to the Amtrak Superliners but without sleepers. Stadler the manufacturer that built those cars should be able to build new Superliners.

If Stadler makes such comfortable trains, than how come they don't make as much revenue as Alstom and Siemens?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Canadian passenger rail is in the same position in replacing Long distance train cars. Some of their Rocky Mountaineer cars look very similar to the Amtrak Superliners but without sleepers. Stadler the manufacturer that built those cars should be able to build new Superliners.

I'm with the Amtrak will not buy anymore New Superliner/Bi-Level Cars Crowd, but they will Rehab some Superliners for use on the Autotrain once enough single level stock is on hand and operating!( probably in my Grandaughters Lifetime!)

 

[jis]

If Stadler makes such comfortable trains, than how come they don't make as much revenue as Alstom and Siemens?

Stadler became a key player partly after they acquired part of Bombardier and Alstom's business as a result of EU instigated divestiture before they allowed the acquisition by Alstom of Bombardier's rail equipment business.

I have no idea why people talk as if without Stadler there is no hope for getting double deckers when both Siemens and Alstom make double deckers and Alstom actually manufactured the last bilevel cars of Superliner type in the form of California Cars. Surely they can simply repeat that feat while adhering to Tier III specs.

 

[jiml]

If you put the pass through at a mezzanine level instead of the upper level it becomes easier to mix and match single and bilevel cars. Accessibility becomes even more complex though.

That was certainly the concept of the Bombardier (now Alstom) "lozenge" commuter cars originally designed for GO Transit and now in use throughout North America. In the early going there were no bi-level cab cars, making a connection with the existing single-level ones essential.

 

[lordsigma]

https://accessibilityfeedback-amtrak.com/
Amtrak is apparently preparing to file for an ADA equivalence for the long distance trains which will require a public comment. Please read above. It sounds like a semi permanently coupled bilevel core trainset is strongly being considered that would include all the accessible accommodations and seating as well as the dining and lounge cars and be fully accessibly on the upper level. Presumably additional sleeper and coach cars could then be attached.

 

[tgstubbs1]

https://accessibilityfeedback-amtrak.com/
Amtrak is apparently preparing to file for an ADA equivalence for the long distance trains which will require a public comment. Please read above. It sounds like a semi permanently coupled bilevel core trainset is strongly being considered that would include all the accessible accommodations and seating as well as the dining and lounge cars and be fully accessibly on the upper level. Presumably additional sleeper and coach cars could then be attached.

Seems reasonable to me, but I don't require accessibility.

Because of the unique nature of trainsets, Amtrak proposes that they should rightly be considered as a whole and not as the sum of their individual rail car parts. In other words, the accessibility of a trainset should be viewed and considered when it is fully "assembled.”

If the Alternative Design Standards listed here are approved, Amtrak can provide a much more accessible and enjoyable train experience for customers with mobility disabilities than what the current regulations provide.

 

[Steve4031]

If they are thinking complete train sets, they need to up their maintenance game and really service the trains in Chicago and other endpoints at regular intervals. Or Amtrak can contract the servicing of the train sets to the manufacturer. The crews in Chicago and other areas could be repurposed for cleaning and stocking.

 

[jiml]

Amtrak can contract the servicing of the train sets to the manufacturer. The crews in Chicago and other areas could be repurposed for cleaning and stocking.

That's what VIA decided.

 

[joelkfla]

Seems reasonable to me, but I don't require accessibility.

Because of the unique nature of trainsets, Amtrak proposes that they should rightly be considered as a whole and not as the sum of their individual rail car parts. In other words, the accessibility of a trainset should be viewed and considered when it is fully "assembled.”

If the Alternative Design Standards listed here are approved, Amtrak can provide a much more accessible and enjoyable train experience for customers with mobility disabilities than what the current regulations provide.

The only thing I don't like is only 2 accessible bathrooms per train. Accessible bathrooms are not restricted to use by disabled persons. I see no reason there can't be one on every car. And if they concentrate multiple accessible accommodations into a single car, there should be more than one accessible bathroom in that car.

(I signed up for the Zoom hearing.)

 

[lordsigma]

Yes anyone interested that has thoughts should definitely sign up.