Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

[cocojacoby]

Speaking of rotating seats, I for one hate the fact that almost all of Amtrak's new coaches have fixed seats that force half of the passengers to face backwards.

It seems that these diagrams suggest that these new LD trains will be "one-directional", i.e., coaches, cafe, diner, cafe, sleepers . . . always in that order and direction. Does that negate the need for rotating seats in the coaches?

Amtrak pretty much is running most if not all LD trains in this manner. They recently flipped the Superliners to this configuration and the eastern LD have run like this for years. Also note that all baggage/dorms are shown at the rear like the eastern trains run.

So, you have to ask if every route endpoint has a loop or wye to turn the entire consist? We know the Auto Train doesn't (not in Virgina and existing but unusable in Florida - one more reason that train may keep the best of the Superliners). Maybe they should have kept that wye in at Miami Airport but there is a loop in Hialeah.

But otherwise, I am guessing that most if not all other major endpoints do have loops or wyes. If this new equipment has fixed-seat coaches I assume Amtrak will have to adhere to consistent operating policies and turn the entire consist at end points and always make sure any added coaches face the right direction.

 

[jiml]

I think non-reversible seats on new equipment is simply cost saving. Cheaper to install and no staff required to turn them at endpoints. VIA started in this direction a few years ago and they were following European precedent.

 

[MARC Rider]

I think non-reversible seats on new equipment is simply cost saving. Cheaper to install and no staff required to turn them at endpoints. VIA started in this direction a few years ago and they were following European precedent.

While I prefer facing forward, having been stuck with only reverse-facing seats being available on my last Acela ride, it really wasn't that bad. I mean, people pay a lot of money to sit in the Bullet lounge of the Canadian to watch the scenery recede, why not a other trains?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

While I prefer facing forward, having been stuck with only reverse-facing seats being available on my last Acela ride, it really wasn't that bad. I mean, people pay a lot of money to sit in the Bullet lounge of the Canadian to watch the scenery recede, why not an other trains?

Riding backwards can cause motion sickness for some.

Since I like to watch the scenery I prefer seeing what we’re approaching rather than what we just passed.

 

[Gemuser]

I think non-reversible seats on new equipment is simply cost saving. Cheaper to install and no staff required to turn them at endpoints. VIA started in this direction a few years ago and they were following European precedent.

As an example of how other do it the NSWGR [whatever the latest name is] run their Sydney - Canberra trains with 3 car DMUs with just less than 200 seats. The onboard staff start reversing the empty seats south of Goulburn, even asking passengers if they would move seats to allow it. This is especially the case if the morning or midday services are running late as the Canberra layover is truncated to allow catch up with the timetable. [The evening service ex Sydney stables overnight in Canberra to form the morning service to Sydney]. This service is about 300 km, operated 3 times daily.

 

[Asher]

I read this
,In an effort to resolve some of its equipment shortage issues, Amtrak plans to put 63 rail cars back into service during the coming fiscal year It doesn’t go into how these cars will be configured.

“15 wrecked cars being rebuilt include one Amfleet II coach, two Viewliner II baggage cars, and 12 Superliners, as follows: 1 coach, 2 baggage coaches, 3 sleepers, 3 transition sleepers, 1 dining car, and 2 Sightseer lounges. Of the 23 Superliners returning to service, one is a coach, two are baggage coaches, two are snack coaches, three are sleepers, nine are transition sleepers, one is a dining car, and five are sightseer lounges. The remaining 40 include two Amfleet I table cars, one Amfleet II coach, 18 Horizon coaches, eight Viewliner I sleeping cars, six Viewliner II baggage cars, and five Viewliner II dining cars.”

 

[lordsigma]

I wouldn’t assume anything about seats from the diagrams reversing or not. They are about A.D.A. And nothing else - period. I also would not conclude anything about the Long distance equipment from the Midwest Ventures. It has been stated outright that even the Amtrak owned Venture based Airo sets will not have the same seats as the Midwest cars and Amtrak’s car spec had different requirements than the state units - have heard some reports the Airo seats will be more similar to Brightline’s as opposed to the Midwest cars but haven’t seen confirmation on that. My wager would be reversible seats particularly due to the Auto Train which is not wyed.

 

[lordsigma]

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/amtrak-ld-service-why-integrated-trainsets-wont-work/
Interesting read. Im not sure there’s really enough information and details to be sounding alarm bells yet since the plans were really just about ADA and I think some are prematurely concluding that there will be no ability to add cars but interesting take nonetheless.

 

[Septa9739]

I think there’s plenty of alarmist nonsense in that article. First, the schematics were proof of concept for ADA compliance. I don’t even think they were to scale. Second Amtrak may not be able to release specific input from car builders. If I were Siemens, I wouldn’t want it on public record how I planned to innovate this, that, or the other before I have a contract signed. Alstom could steal my idea. Third, we have no reason to deny the possibility that the single level sets won’t be Airo-based designs.The dual levels are a challenge bet that is not an immediate issue. Fourth, current equipment (including VII) is understood to be noncompliant with the current ADA and several FRA regulations (window size comes immediately to mind). Presumably if it were being completely rebuilt it would need to become compliant. Finally, the current fleet isn’t big enough to just be rebuilt and run another 30 years. Demand is high, some cars have inevitably been scrapped due to wrecks, it seems there are only exactly enough SSL’s to equip the country if exactly every single one is in service. Every time something happens a car line number drops out of somewhere. That’s no way to run a railroad. It’s time for new equipment. There’s money for new equipment. It’s time to do it.

 

[jis]

I think there’s plenty of alarmist nonsense in that article. First, the schematics were proof of concept for ADA compliance. I don’t even think they were to scale. Second Amtrak may not be able to release specific input from car builders. If I were Siemens, I wouldn’t want it on public record how I planned to innovate this, that, or the other before I have a contract signed. Alstom could steal my idea. Third, we have no reason to deny the possibility that the single level sets won’t be Airo-based designs.The dual levels are a challenge bet that is not an immediate issue. Fourth, current equipment (including VII) is understood to be noncompliant with the current ADA and several FRA regulations (window size comes immediately to mind). Presumably if it were being completely rebuilt it would need to become compliant. Finally, the current fleet isn’t big enough to just be rebuilt and run another 30 years. Demand is high, some cars have inevitably been scrapped due to wrecks, it seems there are only exactly enough SSL’s to equip the country if exactly every single one is in service. Every time something happens a car line number drops out of somewhere. That’s no way to run a railroad. It’s time for new equipment. There’s money for new equipment. It’s time to do it.

I agree, it is not a well written article. It sets up strawmen based on reading extensions to what was actually presented and then knocks them down. At least that is the way it looks to me.

 

[blueman271]

I think there’s plenty of alarmist nonsense in that article. First, the schematics were proof of concept for ADA compliance. I don’t even think they were to scale. Second Amtrak may not be able to release specific input from car builders. If I were Siemens, I wouldn’t want it on public record how I planned to innovate this, that, or the other before I have a contract signed. Alstom could steal my idea. Third, we have no reason to deny the possibility that the single level sets won’t be Airo-based designs.The dual levels are a challenge bet that is not an immediate issue. Fourth, current equipment (including VII) is understood to be noncompliant with the current ADA and several FRA regulations (window size comes immediately to mind). Presumably if it were being completely rebuilt it would need to become compliant. Finally, the current fleet isn’t big enough to just be rebuilt and run another 30 years. Demand is high, some cars have inevitably been scrapped due to wrecks, it seems there are only exactly enough SSL’s to equip the country if exactly every single one is in service. Every time something happens a car line number drops out of somewhere. That’s no way to run a railroad. It’s time for new equipment. There’s money for new equipment. It’s time to do it.

The article that needs to be written is one investigating why Amtrak can’t get any car orders delivered on time and what is being done to ensure this order isn’t delayed. Call me skeptical but I would add at least two years to whatever timeline Amtrak produces when this order is eventually placed.

 

[Trogdor]

I agree, it is not a well written article. It sets up strawmen based on reading extensions to what was actually presented and then knocks them down. At least that is the way it looks to me.

I find it interesting that he thinks this is somehow a good idea:

Rocky Mountaineer recently gutted railcars built in the 1950s and remanufactured them at a reported cost that is 60% of that for a new car and extended the 60-plus-year-old cars’ life by 10 years. These cars are presently in service between Denver and Moab, Utah, operating over the Union Pacific and yielding premium pricing for a premium travel experience. Similarly, VIA Rail Canada has remanufactured Budd Company railcars originally built in the 1950s to support the Toronto-Vancouver Canadian.

There are no indications that this avenue is being pursued by Amtrak.

So...spend 60% of the cost of a new car to get 10 years of use (or, to put it another way, spend less than twice the cost of refurbishing an old car and get four times the lifespan out of it).

 

[jis]

I find it interesting that he thinks this is somehow a good idea:



So...spend 60% of the cost of a new car to get 10 years of use (or, to put it another way, spend less than twice the cost of refurbishing an old car and get four times the lifespan out of it).

I have talked to him and several others of the same ilk. They are not rational when it comes to choosing between rebuilding this that or the other, or actually getting new stuff. The choice is always rebuild and extend life by a few years at enormous cost instead of acquiring something with a 30-50 year life. So I don't talk about it anymore. it is a waste of time.

It is possible that this attitude has developed from a sense of funding famine. When you are faced with famine you wish to extend the little food you have as far as you can. OTOH if you have some hope of continuous reasonable funding for your food, you tend to do normal things like buy the food that you need regularly and eat healthy and all that. I tend to ascribe this attitude to a sort of trauma among people who lived through what essentially amounts to death of passenger service in the US due to famine, followed by a flickering revival with never a certainty about its continued existence.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

You can't keep continually restoring or rehabbing equipment. An example: a hospital ship in Africa (in one of the large inland lakes) was going to be restored by the medical charity and they were raising funds for it. Once they got the ship into drydock it was determined that the hull was too far gone to economically restore it and continue with their mission of providing medical aid. I think this would apply to rail cars as well (or pretty much anything else for that matter).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Chauncy_Maples

 

[sporksradiant]

Question for those in more know - would any of these rehabbed rail cars be passing thru San Antonio AND being transported by SEMI TRUCK?

I saw something perplexing about 3 hours ago coming home off I35 by Windcrest TX - what looked like a single level amtrak colored {grey/ blue} train car being pulled by a semi. I only caught a glimpse of it as I was below the freeway waiting for a bus, but it absolutely looked like an amtrak or subway car with double door on the rear of the car.

It makes no sense to me - we get primarily double decker cars here, plus why transport it on the highway?

 

[GDRRiley]

Question for those in more know - would any of these rehabbed rail cars be passing thru San Antonio AND being transported by SEMI TRUCK?

I saw something perplexing about 3 hours ago coming home off I35 by Windcrest TX - what looked like a single level amtrak colored {grey/ blue} train car being pulled by a semi. I only caught a glimpse of it as I was below the freeway waiting for a bus, but it absolutely looked like an amtrak or subway car with double door on the rear of the car.

It makes no sense to me - we get primarily double decker cars here, plus why transport it on the highway?

Normally railcars aren't moved by truck outside of metro cars.
For example bart cars get trucked across the county.

 

[lordsigma]

I think there’s plenty of alarmist nonsense in that article. First, the schematics were proof of concept for ADA compliance. I don’t even think they were to scale. Second Amtrak may not be able to release specific input from car builders. If I were Siemens, I wouldn’t want it on public record how I planned to innovate this, that, or the other before I have a contract signed. Alstom could steal my idea. Third, we have no reason to deny the possibility that the single level sets won’t be Airo-based designs.The dual levels are a challenge bet that is not an immediate issue. Fourth, current equipment (including VII) is understood to be noncompliant with the current ADA and several FRA regulations (window size comes immediately to mind). Presumably if it were being completely rebuilt it would need to become compliant. Finally, the current fleet isn’t big enough to just be rebuilt and run another 30 years. Demand is high, some cars have inevitably been scrapped due to wrecks, it seems there are only exactly enough SSL’s to equip the country if exactly every single one is in service. Every time something happens a car line number drops out of somewhere. That’s no way to run a railroad. It’s time for new equipment. There’s money for new equipment. It’s time to do it.

Definitely agree that any information they've gotten from carmakers is likely proprietary at this point and Amtrak is not at liberty to share anything beyond this ADA proposal. This is surely to be an extremely lucrative order (or orders if there are separate procurements for single and bilevel) for whoever lands it and as you mentioned the carmakers aren't going to want their competitors to see their ideas.

 

[sporksradiant]

Normally railcars aren't moved by truck outside of metro cars.
For example bart cars get trucked across the county.
View attachment 33917

That's very similar to what I saw. No doors on the sides as far as I could tell and more rounded on the top.

No idea why any rapid transit would be being trucked through here though - no where near us has anything like that. 90% of Texas uses bus. I don't think we have anywhere that does production on them either.

 

[Septa9739]

The article that needs to be written is one investigating why Amtrak can’t get any car orders delivered on time and what is being done to ensure this order isn’t delayed.

I think the problem is the size of our market. As a nation we don’t buy enough passenger stock to keep production lines open, so every time we buy equipment everybody from the custodial team to the execs is starting fresh in a certain sense. It’s not like the old days at Budd when some old head had been around 40 years in every department and saw this problem before and remembered what to do. Institutional knowledge like that is super important. The same is also true at Amtrak. Nobody who did Amfleet 1/2 or Superliner 1 is still around. I doubt many are from Superliner 2 and Viewliner 1. Maybe some from Viewliner 2 still are (and please let them have learned something). I think that’s actually the strongest reason to put the single level LD on an Airo platform. The production lines will have run for a while a lot of things will have been learned and there really isn’t the same rush to replace the singles as there is for the doubles, so let it take a while so hopefully Amtrak’s ready for Airo II by the time they finish (because they’re going to need more sets for expansion).

 

[MARC Rider]

I think that’s actually the strongest reason to put the single level LD on an Airo platform.

Uh, let's wait until the Airos are delivered and we can see if there are any fatal flaws.

there really isn’t the same rush to replace the singles as there is for the doubles,

Uh, the Amfleet 2 coaches and cafe cars are about the same vintage as the Superliner 1s. The Superliner 2s were put into service about a decade later.

 

[Septa9739]

Uh, let's wait until the Airos are delivered and we can see if there are any fatal flaws.

Uh, the Amfleet 2 coaches and cafe cars are about the same vintage as the Superliner 1s. The Superliner 2s were put into service about a decade later.

Uh 1: The diesel Airo’s are ALC-42s and Venture cars strung together, by the time the first one is delivered “fatal flaws“ or more commonly kinks will have been worked out. Lead pipes, magnets that wreck batteries, automated announcements that don’t work, door issues, et al. I’ll grant that the electric will be a little novel, but Amtrak also isn’t going to accept the first 83 sets if they don’t work. Also waiting isn’t really an option. There’s a deadline on the obligation of funds. It’s not a totally novel platform and won’t be like this Acela mess because the mess was already made around the Midwest order.

Uh 2: Fair enough on the dates. I thought the Superliners were earlier and the Amfleet were later. That said, the urgency remains true. The Superliner trains have no passenger equipment younger than 30 and are obviously in bad shape coming from a pool with no slack. The single level trains have sleepers, dorms, and dinners all under thirty and the coaches come from a healthier pool that will be growing relative to its obligations as the Airo displaces the Amfleet 2 from the Pennsylvanian and Palmetto. In a true emergency Horizon cars were once converted to long haul use. Amfleet I likely could be also. The East is in not nearly the equipment crisis the West is in. There are far more options. The eastern long hauls should be the last to be reequipped

 

[west point]

Question for those in more know - would any of these rehabbed rail cars be passing thru San Antonio AND being transported by SEMI TRUCK?

I saw something perplexing about 3 hours ago coming home off I35 by Windcrest TX - what looked like a single level amtrak colored {grey/ blue} train car being pulled by a semi. I only caught a glimpse of it as I was below the freeway waiting for a bus, but it absolutely looked like an amtrak or subway car with double door on the rear of the car.

It makes no sense to me - we get primarily double decker cars here, plus why transport it on the highway?

Lot of speculation. Maybe it was one of the 3 Amfleet cars that was said to be going to Mexico? That whole thing is very iffy and may not be true..

 

[sporksradiant]

Lot of speculation. Maybe it was one of the 3 Amfleet cars that was said to be going to Mexico? That whole thing is very iffy and may not be true..

Did some image search and can say for certain that it was not an Amfleet - it was newer I believe. It was also headed north, fwiw.

It looked a bit like a more modern interpretation of one of these, without the observation bump and with double doors on the rear more like a subway car. It had Amtrak blue which is why I say Amtrak.

It's possible it could have been going to one of the many rail museums around the state, but I don't see anything indicating that.

 

[rs9]

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/amtrak-ld-service-why-integrated-trainsets-wont-work/
Interesting read. Im not sure there’s really enough information and details to be sounding alarm bells yet since the plans were really just about ADA and I think some are prematurely concluding that there will be no ability to add cars but interesting take nonetheless.

I think there's a dead giveaway in this article - the author's focus on premium service and capacity reads like another "give me my sleeper service exactly the way I want it at any cost" article.

If I may pile on:

• As far as I understand it, Amtrak's aging fleet includes electrical systems that are far outdated at this juncture in time. One of the challenges of Amtrak's current hiring problems is that today's electricians aren't trained on outdated systems (to no surprise) and aren't really interested in what amounts to remedial training just for the pleasure of working for Amtrak.
• I cannot reiterate this enough: as someone who actually rides in coach on long distance trains, new car designs with vestibule automatic sliding doors that don't sound like a metal foundry at work will be a significant upgrade.
• Bathrooms located in vestibules, like with the new Siemens Venture cars, instead of in the coach car proper, will have inestimable value for coach passengers. No more smells, no more bathroom lines, no more slamming sliding doors.
• Again, as someone who rides in coach, the prospect of an offering of 1x2 seating (whether it's premium seating, business class, or whatever), is a major upgrade. But all too often, those of us who aren't in sleepers don't seem to count for many Amtrak knowers.

"Why can't we have nice things" is really the ultimate passenger rail question in the U.S.

 

[PVD]

Remember folks, it's not just age, it's utilization. As an example, while the AM-2 may be newer than AM-1 the AM-2 have racked up the miles.