Long Distance Trains That Carry Local Travel on the NEC

[Thirdrail7]

I attempted to find a thread to update regarding this subject but couldn't find a suitable one. Therefore, I figured that since this is a work in progress, we can just update this thread until something better comes along. I'm not including the Vermonter is this discussion.

The NEC is quite busy. They've added Acela trips, added and added a few more regionals. However, with more northeast regionals venturing off the NEC proper, equipment isn't readily available to short turn.

Additionally, there have been equipment loss and equipment that went to support various state services.

As such, Amtrak started looking towards the long-distance trains that ply the NEC. On-time performance issues with northbound trains and specialized consists kept a lot of the long-distance trains at arm's length. An example is the Carolinian, which isn't a long-distance train operationally. However, otp issues caused them to utilize the southbound run for NEC travel, while the northbound train didn't carry local travel.

As capacity was needed, changes were made.

One of the first changes occurred with the Palmetto, as discussed in the Amtrak replacing 2 northeast regional trains with Palmetto?? thread.

This train started operating with local travel (which is something it did in the 90s) and the adjacent regionals were dropped.

Next, they started using the southbound Long Distance trains to carry NEC travel. During peak travel times, northbound Long Distance trains were used to fill in when available.

Earlier this year, they started using the northbound Carolinian (80) to carry NEC travel on Sundays. Within a few months, that changed to Thursdays, Fridays and, Sundays.

With Thanksgiving approaching, the plan is to use a few of the northbound Long Distance trains to carry passengers over the NEC. This has occurred in the past. However, there is one train they are experimenting for a lengthier period of time:

92(SA).

If you tune into the website, you'll see that 92(SA) will carry local NEC travelers on Sundays through December. This is a bold move but the timing and scheduling appear to line up. As you can see, 92's Saturday departures from MIA seems to have performed reasonably well over the route.

The average delay is 35 minutes since January and most of the delays occurred between April and September when you have trackwork and heat restrictions.

I'm not sure how many more days you can shake out of 92....or 50 for that matter. However, it is a start.

Southbound
89
51
79
91
19
97

Northbound:

92-Sundays
80-Thursday, Fridays, and Sundays
50-Certain days through the Thanksgiving period.
90-Daily

 

[user 14106]

I have noticed lately Long distance trains coming up as connection options when I look for trips from SPG-WAS. Is there a limitation on how many seats they allow for local NEC travel? This is a decent idea to try to get some extra ridership on these trains but at the same time you don't want to fill the train up with too many corridor travelers and end up pricing out potential long haul passengers. Do NEC passengers affect the bucket levels for long haul passengers? I'm also curious if the long distance account receives the credit for these riders or if they go to the Northeast Regional account.

 

[MARC Rider]

On the Palmetto, they add or drop a few Amfleet 1 cars at Washington. When you go southbound, if you're getting off at Washington or before, they make you sit up in the Amfleet 1 cars at the front of the train. These cars can get a bit crowded. Northbound, you can sit anywhere in the train, so you can enjoy an Amfleet 2 LD seat on your short NEC ride. They seem to deal with the delays coming from the south by having a very long layover scheduled in Washington.

I've never taken any of the other LD service on the NEC. Ticket prices are usually higher than for the Northeast Regional trains right before or after, and the ride isn't long enough to care too much about getting a roomier Amfleet 2 seat.

 

[MARC Rider]

This is a decent idea to try to get some extra ridership on these trains but at the same time you don't want to fill the train up with too many corridor travelers and end up pricing out potential long haul passengers.

The long distance trains have to leave New York (as well as all the other stops on the NEC) with empty seats because quite a lot of people get on in Washington. Might as well fill those empty seats with paid passengers who are going to get off at or before Washington. In the case of the Palmetto, they actually add or drop extra cars at Washington for the short-distance passengers, so I can't see how selling space on the long distance trains will price out long distance passengers.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Is there a limitation on how many seats they allow for local NEC travel?

Yes.

I'm also curious if the long distance account receives the credit for these riders or if they go to the Northeast Regional account.

That is a bone of contention. Increasingly, the LD trains are receiving the credit while the NEC service line was losing the credit. We'll see if it straightens out.

 

[chrsjrcj]

It would make sense to credit these rides to the LD train. Amtrak doesn’t credit Coast Starlight trips between Eugene and Seattle to the Cascades?

 

[jis]

It would make sense to credit these rides to the LD train. Amtrak doesn’t credit Coast Starlight trips between Eugene and Seattle to the Cascades?

I tend to agree. If this were viewed in terms of Train Operating Companies (TOC) then the LD trains would be Amtrak National TOC operations, and presumably Amtrak National would be paying a fee to Amtrak NEC Infrastructure for use of the infrastructure, and either (a) pay a fee to Amtrak NEC TOC for providing power and T&E crew for the train on the NEC segment, or (b) potentially using its own power and T&E crew.

Anyhow in all of these cases the revenue collected from the operation of that train would accrue to that train (or at least the segment of revenue that corresponds to the portion of the itinerary traveled on that train).

Amtrak in its infinite wisdom to gussy up NEC revenues may tend towards treating the train as an NEC operation on the NEC and grab all the revenue from the train on the NEC for the NEC BU. That would just be further indication of Amtrak's antipathy towards LD trains and the Amtrak National BU.

As usual, it is not clear at least to me, how they account for the cost of operating the LD trains on the NEC. They may still be continuing the PRR practice of imposing a rather large tax for doing so, that was not particularly related to anything other than whims of accountants. Or they may be using a better segmented accounting practice using well documented cross charging between BUs. Given Amtrak and its accounting, I always remain skeptical though.

 

[user 14106]

I tend to agree. If this were viewed in terms of Train Operating Companies (TOC) then the LD trains would be Amtrak National TOC operations, and presumably Amtrak National would be paying a fee to Amtrak NEC Infrastructure for use of the infrastructure, and either (a) pay a fee to Amtrak NEC TOC for providing power and T&E crew for the train on the NEC segment, or (b) potentially using its own power and T&E crew.

Anyhow in all of these cases the revenue collected from the operation of that train would accrue to that train (or at least the segment of revenue that corresponds to the portion of the itinerary traveled on that train).

Amtrak in its infinite wisdom to gussy up NEC revenues may tend towards treating the train as an NEC operation on the NEC and grab all the revenue from the train on the NEC for the NEC BU. That would just be further indication of Amtrak's antipathy towards LD trains and the Amtrak National BU.

As usual, it is not clear at least to me, how they account for the cost of operating the LD trains on the NEC. They may still be continuing the PRR practice of imposing a rather large tax for doing so, that was not particularly related to anything other than whims of accountants. Or they may be using a better segmented accounting practice using well documented cross charging between BUs. Given Amtrak and its accounting, I always remain skeptical though.

For state supported routes (Vermonter, Keystones, Pennsylvanian, Carolinian, etc.) the NEC portion of the trip always goes to the northeast regional and the state supported service Line only gets credit when one leg of the trip is at a station within the state supported part. But things get a little more convoluted with the LD trains. For example you can get a roomette in some cases for just corridor travel and the sleeper staff member and related stuff are exclusively a long distance asset so things start getting murky.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

So when will Amtrak terminate the LD at Washington DC.

Slivers,Crescent, Cardinal, Capital all could start out of DC. Leave only the LSL out of Boston or Albany.

Free up the slots for NEC trains. Per Amtrak the money makers.

 

[jis]

So when will Amtrak terminate the LD at Washington DC.

Slivers,Crescent, Cardinal, Capital all could start out of DC. Leave only the LSL out of Boston or Albany.

Free up the slots for NEC trains. Per Amtrak the money makers.

That change will have a small impact on the NEC revenues, and be quite bad for the New York originating LD train's revenues and a downgrade of service for passengers. There actually is no dearth of slots on the NEC outside of the two or so rush hours in the morning and afternoon.

On the whole a terrible idea.

 

[jiml]

So when will Amtrak terminate the LD at Washington DC.

Slivers,Crescent, Cardinal, Capital all could start out of DC. Leave only the LSL out of Boston or Albany.

Free up the slots for NEC trains. Per Amtrak the money makers.

Cardinal did start/terminate in Washington during Superliner periods.

 

[Thirdrail7]

It would make sense to credit these rides to the LD train. Amtrak doesn’t credit Coast Starlight trips between Eugene and Seattle to the Cascades?

That's not necessarily true. Ridership is usually attributed to routes, not individual trains. If a train overlaps multiple routes, the appropriate numbers go to the appropriate route as mentioned below:

For state supported routes (Vermonter, Keystones, Pennsylvanian, Carolinian, etc.) the NEC portion of the trip always goes to the northeast regional and the state supported service Line only gets credit when one leg of the trip is at a station within the state supported part.

This can also apply to the LD trains. An example was the Crescent, when the Lynchburger originated in Lynchburg. The Crescent and the Lynchburger shared the route, which was defined as someone who had an origin or destination between LYH and WAS. The riders from either train were calculated on that route. It is similar to the

But things get a little more convoluted with the LD trains. For example you can get a roomette in some cases for just corridor travel and the sleeper staff member and related stuff are exclusively a long distance asset so things start getting murky.

True, since LD trains didn't accept travelers for local on the NEC. It hasn't been an issue until recently. When they did in the past, the train had split accountability.

Cardinal did start/terminate in Washington during Superliner periods.

It cost them revenue which is why it was extended back to NYP. The CVS-NYP is quite strong, particularly with the Lynchburger adding another option.

 

[jamess]

Ive noticed some additions in New Brunswick.

For example, the southbound 171 to Roanoke stops at New Brunswick at 1:19pm. This was never true in the past. NB only had 2 southbound Amtrak trains in the early AM, and 2 northbound in the PM.

The train also stops at Princeton Junction.

 

[user 14106]

Thirdrail, this is a bit off topic but somewhat related, but do you know how they are accounting for the new "Valley Flyer" state supported service? Is the service to HLK, NHT, and GFD going to the Vermonter or New Haven - Springfield service lines? It started this fall, but it doesn't have its own service line so far on any reports I have seen so far. I know on the Vermonter, those stations go to the Vermonter account but the Vermonter account ONLY gets stations north of Springfield... if I take the Vermonter from SPG, WNL, HFD, or MDN to somewhere south it goes to the New Haven - Springfield account and not the Vermonter. Was curious if the Vermonter is also getting credit for the VFs...