LSL Ideas

[BuzzKillington]

If and when the LSL is ever permitted to travel 110mph from NY to BUF and 110mph again from CLE to CHI when this High Speed Rail thing happens (maybe?)... I think a good idea would be to start it about 7pm at night (after dinner) and arrive very early the next day (before breakfast would have to be served) in both directions. You could then save money on servers, food, etc and maybe turn an Amfleet lounge or Viewliner type car into a snack/bar car. Selling only Alcohol, soft drinks and snacks by one server behind a counter would drastically cut down the cost of running the train. I would hope that even Amtrak could turn a profit on serving alcohol to it's customers. Thoughts?

 

[spacecadet]

I'm not sure what's different about your second suggestion than what they do now. Amtrak already serves alcohol in the lounge cars, and they also sell snacks and soft drinks.

Do you mean doing away with the diner? I think as we've seen that that's kind of suicidal for a long distance train. Even if you cut the running time by a few hours, it's still too long to expect people to go without a regular meal. Especially if they're paying a premium for a sleeping car. This is done/has been done on a few routes, and most of those trains have ended up being cut altogether eventually.

 

[TVRM610]

Also.. the LSL already travels 100 on a few (not sure how much) sections of that route. So it's not like we're going from 79 to 110. Realistically... I don't think they will be able to shave off that much time for a while. The route currently takes 18 hours, your talking about running it in 12?

HOWEVER.. let's say you could do a true overnight trip like your talking about, and lets say Amtrak could have some fun -

the LSL "night train" could be

2 "First Class" coaches with reserved 2-1 seating.

2 Sleepers

1 First Class Lounge that offers complimentary evening snacks and then a cont, style breakfast in the morning.

If marketed correctly, this could work. Then have a "Day" train running the route as well.

Hey its fun to dream right?

 

[BuzzKillington]

Just say they could leave NY at 7:30pm and arrive at CHI at 6:30am (12 hours with the time change). Instead of waking people up for breakfast, the attendants could let people know they have arrived at the station. Maybe the train would be open to sleep in for an extra hour or so at least for first class passengers.

Eastbound would be a little more difficult with the time change the other way, but if they left CHI at 7:30pm, they could arrive to NY at 8:30am. Maybe a continental breakfast could be served south of Albany for those who are up.

I think people would generally be willing to give up the meals on the train to make it to their station much earlier.

 

[spacecadet]

the LSL "night train" could be

2 "First Class" coaches with reserved 2-1 seating.

2 Sleepers

1 First Class Lounge that offers complimentary evening snacks and then a cont, style breakfast in the morning.

It would have to leave at more like 9PM for this to work. 7PM is still dinner time, and given the time it takes to get ready and get to the station, you're really asking people not to have dinner at all. They're going to get on that train hungry and there is no dining car.

If you could do the run in 12 hours (which is not bloody likely), you could leave NYP at 9 or 9:30PM and get to CHI at 8 or 8:30AM. So you could get away with not serving dinner and then just have a light or "continental" breakfast (which to me just means a bunch of random little crap - I hate continental breakfasts). Coming back you could leave at 9PM and get to NYP at 10AM.

Keep in mind this is an *average* of 80mph, though. You'd really need a real high-speed train for that - at least something Acela Express-like, and the tracks to support true high speeds at least some of the way. You can't top out at between 79mph and 110mph with some lower speeds thrown in there and station stops too and come out averaging 80mph.

 

[Steve4031]

I think the fastest timings on this route were with 20th century Limited. IIRC, this was 16 hours. If they could get it to that, it would be a pretty good train. You could leave Chicago at 8 p.m., and arrive in NYC about 1 p.m. Going the other direction, you could leave NYC AT 8 p.m., and arrive in Chicago at 11 a.m. This would work pretty well for business travelers who dislike flying.

If you eliminate the dwell time in Albany, then you have already knocked at least 1 hour off of the schedule. The Boston section could be run separately, and scheduled to operate Buffalo to Chicago during the day in each direction.

 

[BuzzKillington]

The 20th Century Limited didn't have 110mph speed limits on a good part of it's route. 12 hours would be pushing it, but maybe that should be the starting point for this project.

 

[cpamtfan]

Actually I don't believe there are any sections above 79mph along the LSL route. Unless there are sections along the Hudson.

 

[AlanB]

Actually I don't believe there are any sections above 79mph along the LSL route. Unless there are sections along the Hudson.

There are sections along the Hudson where the LSL and all Amtrak trains get above 79 MPH, and there is one section west of Albany where they can go 90 MPH.

 

[spacecadet]

The 20th Century Limited didn't have 110mph speed limits on a good part of it's route. 12 hours would be pushing it, but maybe that should be the starting point for this project.

The 20th Century Limited also only made about five stops, though, and it had a meticulously maintained route for passenger travel. Still could only manage 16 hours...

 

[BuzzKillington]

Yes, the only sections above 79 right now are east of Schenectady. But the long term plan is to have 110mph track between there and Buffalo and between Cleveland and Chicago. If that did happen, the LSL's schedule could be greatly shortened.

 

[dlagrua]

If anyone here can figure out how to convince the freight railroads to install HSR so that Amtrak receives the main benefit let me know.

 

[spacecadet]

If anyone here can figure out how to convince the freight railroads to install HSR so that Amtrak receives the main benefit let me know.

Easy: mandate it. (With government funding, of course; not saying the RR's should have to pay for it.)

 

[Railroad Bill]

As previously suggested, the LSL would need to cut out several of its small town stops in order to improve its timecard.

Places in Ohio like Elyria, Sandusky and Bryan where hardly anyone gets on or off would be a start.

But the tracks would need to have millions of $$ in improvements and with the hundreds of grade crossings along the route, lots of accidents on the route could be anticipated as well

 

[TVRM610]

Yes, the only sections above 79 right now are east of Schenectady. But the long term plan is to have 110mph track between there and Buffalo and between Cleveland and Chicago. If that did happen, the LSL's schedule could be greatly shortened.

I think its important to note that in the USA "110 Track" means that the track is good for 110 in a few ares. The keystone has closer to "110" track then we are probably ever going to see Cleveland to Chicago and they average 52 MPH from Harrisburg to PHL. Now true.. that's mainly because of the high number of "local" stops that they make but it def. gives us a point of reference.

 

[afigg]

But the tracks would need to have millions of $$ in improvements and with the hundreds of grade crossings along the route, lots of accidents on the route could be anticipated as well

Millions of $$ in improvements? Try billions for a higher speed Chicago to Cleveland corridor service. The Chicago to St Louis corridor got $1.1 billion for improvements and Illinois has put state money and support for the corridor service over the years. Even with $1.1 billion, it will still fall short of the sub 4 hour run time and the goal of 8 round trips a day.

The Midwest Regional Rail System Service (MWRRS) Development Plan put out last September calls for travel times by 2020 from Chicago to Cleveland of 4 hrs 23 mins, down from the 7 hrs plus current run time. With the planned route running through Ft. Wayne, getting to a running time of near 4 and a half hours will probably run several billion. Of course, there is also the problem that Indiana is not a active supporter rail and Ohio 3C plan may hang in the balance for this falls elections, it will take years of sustained federal funding for intercity rail before a higher speed corridor service from CHI to CLE is going to even start construction. The western half of the Midwest rail plan in the rail friendly states of IL, WI, MO, Iowa, MN, Kansas are likely to see new and faster corridor service first.

The MWRRS plan calls for a Chicago to Cincinnati run time of 4 hrs 8 mins down from the whopping 9+ hours for the Cardinal. If the MWRRS plan is actually built out along with faster CLE to PGH corridor, Keystone and Empire service, there will be a big impact on the running times and usage patterns of the east coast to CHI LD trains. If the NYP to CHI run times get down to 12-14 hours, the LD service could evolve to 2 trains a day, one overnight, the other a long day train connecting the corridor services for all the city pairs in-between. Just have to get the sustained federal funding of some 5 to 10 billion a year in place which won't be easy.

 

[Gord]

Yes, the only sections above 79 right now are east of Schenectady. But the long term plan is to have 110mph track between there and Buffalo and between Cleveland and Chicago. If that did happen, the LSL's schedule could be greatly shortened.

Would be nice if they could get into Buffalo, Erie and Cleveland an hour or two earlier, westbound. It currently is due at Buffalo-Depew at 23:59 and I've yet to board when it wasn't at least 45 minutes down. Makes for a long day if you're taking the 19:00 bus from Toronto to meet it. I suspect more people would use it if it arrived at a more reasonable time.

I know there are single track bottlenecks and freight volume issues with CSX. The sooner this gets resolved, the better. It seems to me there's a relatively short, 110 mph section (cab signals, etc.) on NS near the IN / MI border.

Gord

 

[AlanB]

I know there are single track bottlenecks and freight volume issues with CSX. The sooner this gets resolved, the better. It seems to me there's a relatively short, 110 mph section (cab signals, etc.) on NS near the IN / MI border.

I believe that the money to double track the only remaining single track section, SDY-ALB, is now in place. I don't recall off the top of my head when construction is supposed to start, but hopefully it's soon. That will help delays a lot when that's done.

 

[jis]

In order to get a 15 hour or so LSL, maybe even 14, I don't think you require 110mph running. All that you need is one additional 79mph track that by passes congestion points, to get around the freight congestion.

The reason I believe this is that there are ample examples in other parts of the world of running 15 to 17 hour overnight trains between two cities separated by 700 to 900 miles, in territories where maximum speed is around 80mph. If an 80mph train can keep running at 60 to 80 mph most of the time instead of sitting in holes waiting for things to happen, they can mae a 900 mile journey with 7 to 10 stops in well under 16 hours.

So to some extent this 110mph thing is at best a distraction of the goal is to get something like LSL to cut its running time by 3 or 4 hours.

In general a train running at 80 mph instead of 0 mph makes a heck of a lot more difference in running time that an train running at 110 instead of 80.

 

[BuzzKillington]

I agree that a lot of their lengthened schedules have to do with freight interference. Not only that, these trains hold for hours at a time at stations to make up for lost time. If there was no lost time, they still sit there. On the LSL (a relatively short run compared to some), the eastbound has 30 minutes built in at Toledo,15 minutes at Cleveland and 50 minutes at Albany. That's an hour and a half right there that could be cut.

That shows even more how much time could be saved on this schedule if they could run Amtrak on it's own track at 110mph. I think they could do it in 12-13 hours.

 

[Eric S]

I know there are single track bottlenecks and freight volume issues with CSX. The sooner this gets resolved, the better. It seems to me there's a relatively short, 110 mph section (cab signals, etc.) on NS near the IN / MI border.

Gord

Actually, the 110mph track (not sure if they're actually running at 110pm yet, though) is on Amtrak's Michigan Line, upon which the Blue Water and Wolverine trains travel, not the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited.

 

[Steve4031]

Eliminating the hour plus wait in Albany would be a huge improvement. I do enjoy the through sleeper to Boston, but IMHO, taking steps to eliminate the two to two and a half hours of station dwell time on the LSL route would be helpful. I know Albany has a lot of dwell time, as does Toledo.

At some point they are going to build that extra track to Porter. And the completion of the Englewood flyover would also eliminate a few minute delay. Rather than slow for the diamond crossing, and or deal with slow signals, the passenger and freight trains could be accelerating past that area.

Also, Norfolk Southern has gotten some sort of grant to work on the interlockings between Chicago and Porter Indiana to help improve the flow of trains. Does anybody know when this will be completed? I believe this is separate from the high speed track that has been mentioned for this same segment.

 

[AlanB]

If freight interference was eliminated Amtrak might be able to shave some time off the Albany stop, but with or without the Boston section running through, you have to have some down time in ALB because you must change engines. This issue isn't going away anytime soon unless Amtrak can find the money to buy a new/updated version of the P32 AC-DM, such that the LSL can run all the way to Chicago with those motors. Otherwise, an engine change is still always going to be required. And I'm not sure if it's actually worth having extra P32 AC-DM's just to make the run to Chicago anyhow; especially with the lower HP ratings that they have.

So adding the through cars from Boston doesn't really change things with the way they're doing it today. The switching ops of 5 years ago definately wasted time, but today they've got things down to the minimum since they just cut off the motors with the Boston cars coming into ALB. And going out, they just cut off the special motor and back the through cars & engines right onto the front of the NY section.

 

[Steve4031]

I forgot about the engine change. It's still a tedious wait IMHO, but it is what it is.

 

[BuzzKillington]

There is a lot of time added between Schenectady and Albany for the engine change to take place before the train gets to the station. The times I've taken the LSL, the engine change took place and the train still pulled in at the "arrival time" in Albany. The extra time is on top of that...