Lucifer's Post - thrown off the train

[Everydaymatters]

I have to admit I didn't read all of the replies and additional info supplied by Lucifer, but this brings up a question.

The last trip I was on, the train attendant threatened to throw different people off the train for various offenses. She admonished two of them quite loudly in front of other passengers, accused another one of pushing her down the stairs, etc., etc.. None of these parties were traveling together. They were just random passengers to whom the attendant decided to single out. All of them were threatened with being thrown off the train.

Is this something new in Amtrak's policy where attendants are allowed to throw people off the train? None of the passengers I saw were in any way threatening anyone or causing any problems - other than in the eyes of the attendant.

Years ago I was on the SW Chief when a passenger was met by the police at the next station because he had threatened other passengers. I can see that was necessary. But the attendant I'm talking about was purposely looking for a fight and was on a real power trip.

What's the Amtrak policy?

 

[AlanB]

Everyday,

First, an attendant has no authority to actually throw someone off the train, only a conductor can do that. Now that said, the odds are that a conductor would most likely be inclined to believe and perhaps follow the wishes of an attendant, unless said attendant was known to the conductor to be a problem child.

But opposing a conductor is pretty much like opposing a flight attendant. They are protected by law and one can go to jail for assaulting them, and they definitely have the power to have someone thrown off the train. They best have a good and hopefully verifiable reason for doing so, or a law suit could develop. I don't recall if it was settled, much less what the outcome was, but a few years back there was a lawsuit against Amtrak because a conductor had thrown someone off the train because of what was written on the person’s shirt.

I myself in all of my travels, have only witnessed one person being thrown off the train. That happened a few years back on the Ann Rutledge heading for Chicago, probably about 40 miles south of Chicago. In that case the person was thrown off because he had quite obviously drank too much and was verbally and physically assaulting the prettier females on the train. This individual was given several warnings from the lounge car attendant, and at least two from the conductor, but either refused to obey or was simply too intoxicated to have a clue what planet he was on.

So instead of a night in Chicago, he spent the night in a local jail cell courtesy of the local town we happened to be going through at the time.

I’m not sure if there is an “official” policy on this, there may well be one, I just don’t know. I’m guessing that there are probably at least guidelines, even if there isn’t an actual policy. But I do know that the conductor has the power of law on the train, he/she is the master of all they survey. They even have the power to marry people if two passengers are so inclined to do so.

 

[Steve4031]

I have observied people being removed from the train for being drunk on several occassions. This usually results in at least a 30 minute delay if not more.

On a trip on the Texas Eagle between Chicago and LA, I observed a a 3 day saga. This mentally ill person drank and took her medication or didd not take her medication, but either way she was a disruptive force for most of the trip. I had a few strange encounters, and just ignored. Near Dallas, she got involved in a argument with people in another room after they accused her of smoking in her compartment. The conductor had to referee this one after he had spent 90 minutes in the Texas summer fixing an air hose. He deferred and left it for the next conductor.

This woman's behavior escalated betweeen Fort Worth and San Antonio. She argued with her mother, and threw the dinner tray out of the room. She made rude, racist remarks to the attendant when he encouraged her to behave better. She threatend to send a complaint letter to Amtrak to report him. I gave him my card and offfered to be a witness on his behalf. I encouraged other passengers to do so.

The drama continued in similar manner until Tuscon, where they got off. The train was already several hours late, and was delayed more because they were not ready to get off even though they had been properly notified by the crew. The attendant told me later that she had thrown up in the compartment. What a mess!!

I don't know why she was not removed from the train. I suspect her mental illness was part of the issue.

In conclusion, it seems that conductors have a lot of discretion in whether or not to remove somebody from the train.

In Lucifer's case, I feel that it would have been better to move him to another car where he would not have to pass through his former car, for his safety, and the safety of other passengers. This would have alleviated the problem and limited the chancce of further confrontation. If confrontations contiued, then the offending passengers should be removed.

 

[Sam Damon]

Railroad Dave has this to say on the subject.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Sam, THANKS for that link, it's one I hadn't seen before. He writes really well. Ought to write a book.

 

[Steve4031]

Railroad Dave has this to say on the subject.

Thanks, I enjoyed that link and have added Railroad Dave to my favorites.

 

[user 683]

I have not actually observed folks being removed from the train, but I was on a train (SWC) where fellow passengers remarked that at least one and perhaps two individuals where removed since they were intoxicated. The general hub-bub was they were both pickled when they boarded and that they exhibited rude behavior on the train. The conductor basically didn't waste any time having them ejected. On the same train, a woman was smoking in the lower level rest room. It was obvious since the odor of smoke was evident in the restroom and near by areas. The attendant made several announcements over the course of a few hours time. The last announcement included a statement that no additional warnings will be announced and that the individual in question will be removed from the train the next time they were caught smoking.

So, aside from the obvious conditions that warrant passengers being removed, it appears the crews make an effort alleviate matters, by relocating the pax in question and/or by providing fair warning that certain behavior will not be tolerated.

 

[Larry H.]

This brings up something I had nearly forgotten.. Back in the 70's just before Amtrak was formed we were traveling by parlor car to Toronto from Chicago, on our trip to Vancouver. A woman passenger kept coming into the Parlor car and sitting in the seats, she had a drink in her hand and was well on her way to being drunk. The conducter removed her several times as she only had a Coach ticket. She also cause a stir in the snack car. Later again for about the third time she enter the Parlor car barely able to stand up. When the conductor found her there again he removed her and soon the train came to a halt in some tiny town in the middle of no where. I saw him escort the lady off, close the door and the train left her standing there. It was the first time I had seen anything like that and was pretty amazed that they just left her standing beside the train..

 

[frj1983]

On my very first trip on Amtrak (in 1983),

The friend with whom I was traveling and I went to the lounge car to grab some pop and a snack when we were accosted by an obviously drunk passenger who tried to pass us money and asked us to buy beer for him. It turns out he had been cut off by the Car Attendant and had been badgering others to buy alcohol for him as well. When I said no, he became angry and unruly, started cursing at me and then said he was going to punch me into the next car. Despite the fact that he outweighed me by about 100 pounds, I walked directly up to him and said with as much emphasis as possible: "you had best make the first shot count because if you don't, I'll tear you to pieces." He immediately backed away from me and sat sullenly at a corner table. Within 15 minutes of this wonderful occurence, the train came to a halt in the middle of nowhere, when the Conductor arrived with 2 sheriff officers who wasted no time cuffing him and dragging him off the train. This took all of 5 minutes and the SWC went on it's way.

That was my welcome to Amrak, however it did not put me off train-riding and I have met many decent, friendly people while traveling on the train over the years. Now I don't know why I said what I said to this drunken idiot because I normally don't seek out confrontation, but a little voice told me to challenge him and so I did...blowhards usually back down when challenged.

 

[Swede]

Railroad Dave has this to say on the subject.

Very good link, but don't click his "Tresspass incident" story unless you're prepared for a disturbing and gory picture.

 

[TransAtlantic]

I have...er..."witnessed" several individuals being thrown off the train. Among the reasons: refusal to heed an "all aboard" because they wanted to finish their cigarette (on a Surfliner, so they weren't permanently stuck), refusing to present a ticket to the conductor (because said conductor had refused to play baggage porter for the passengers half-dozen oversized/overweight bags), foul and abusive language toward both crew and other passengers, and most recently, the threat to "infect" everyone - which relate's to Lucifer's post, since said passenger claimed to be HIV positive (but just to address that, HIV does NOT equate with crazy).

It happens all the time, and from what I've seen, 99.9% of the time the removals are absolutely justified.

 

[gyuri_ft]

They even have the power to marry people if two passengers are so inclined to do so.

Not in Europe, but I will certainly tell it to my peers over there. There are still enough railfans on the other side of Atlantic/Pacific who would like to be the "victims" :lol:

I know actually a guy in Austria (who traveled in NKorean car).. he sure could look forward doing it one day! Thanks for telling it here, thumbs up!!!

 

[AlanB]

They even have the power to marry people if two passengers are so inclined to do so.

Not in Europe, but I will certainly tell it to my peers over there. There are still enough railfans on the other side of Atlantic/Pacific who would like to be the "victims" :lol:

I know actually a guy in Austria (who traveled in NKorean car).. he sure could look forward doing it one day! Thanks for telling it here, thumbs up!!!

I myself was surprised to see it happen and didn't know that they could peform ceremonies until I witnessed it on the Cardinal a few years back. The couple had met on a train a few years before and both liked riding trains. So they made arrangements with Amtrak, booked a few rooms in a sleeper for the small bridal party. This was back when the Cardinal was still using Superliner equipment, and they sectioned off part of the car, invited those of us who were in the car to witness the ceremony, and were married by the conductor as the train rolled through the beautiful New River Gorge National Park.

We even got some free champagne out of the deal too. And I understand that just like a minister, the conductor got a nice tip.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Gee, if they had just needed an organist.... :lol: :lol:

 

[AlanB]

Gee, if they had just needed an organist.... :lol: :lol:

Alas, they settled for a tape player with pre-recorded music for the wedding and reception.

 

[Anthony]

I can't seem to find much online about train conductors' ability to perform a marriage -- can anyone help me out with a link? I've definitely heard of this in the past, but wanted to read more about the authority...

 

[PRR 60]

That has all the earmarks of an urban legend. To the best of my knowledge, only a judge, justice of the peace, a member of the clergy, or a notary can perform weddings in the United States. There are also the self-uniting weddings where the ceremony is not officiated by a qualified person, but is witnessed and attested to make it legal. A train conductor could preside at that type of a ceremony, but so could anyone else. Even the romantic concept of getting married at sea is by and large a myth today unless the captain is also one of the above or is licensed in a country that permits captains to perform weddings. Some cruise lines license their captains in Bermuda for just that reason.

My guess is that getting married by an Amtrak conductor is more of a short-term facilitation than a legal, long term obligation, if you get my drift.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Depending on the laws of the individual state that they were traveling through at the time of the ceremony, {if we simply set aside the question of blanket authority by a conductor to "conduct" a wedding ceremony), if the conductor happened to be a notary, he may have authority under the law of that state to solemnize the marriage, but he would probably have to be a notary of that state.

 

[AlanB]

Well I can't speak to what power/authority may or may not have been given to couductors in this country, but I can tell you what I witnessed with my own eyes. And I did see a wedding happen on the Cardinal. I watched the conductor sign the marriage license for the couple.

And a few of us were talking to the conductor afterwards and he told us that while it's not common, that this was not the first wedding that he had presided over. Now I don't recall if anyone actually asked him if conductors have blanket authority to perform marriages, or if it was just the fact that he also had some other authority backing him.

 

[gyuri_ft]

Well I can't speak to what power/authority may or may not have been given to couductors in this country, but I can tell you what I witnessed with my own eyes. And I did see a wedding happen on the Cardinal. I watched the conductor sign the marriage license for the couple.
And a few of us were talking to the conductor afterwards and he told us that while it's not common, that this was not the first wedding that he had presided over. Now I don't recall if anyone actually asked him if conductors have blanket authority to perform marriages, or if it was just the fact that he also had some other authority backing him.

I am realtively soon on the Star-Late again, will ask the conductors.

 

[Guest]

Historically, both ships captains and train conductors could preform legal marriages. I expect that in todays world of paperwork and lawyers this no longer applies, but I don't know specifics.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Railroad Dave has this to say on the subject.

I thank you as well for the link. Railroad Dave is terrific. The story about Lucifer here, along with the knowledge of what Dave has had to face, gave me the courage to finally have a customer removed from my store today. The guy in question seemed like a nice old guy, but he's incontient and smells very much bad. He has ruined several of our chairs, and we finally decided that it just couldn't continue any longer. It didn't go well, and the police had to get involved, but it's done.

I know my story isn't train related, but I was thinking of Railroad Dave the whole time- reminding myself of what a really bad day at work can look like for some people.

 

[Guest_Amtrak OBS Employee_*]

First, an attendant has no authority to actually throw someone off the train, only a conductor can do that. Now that said, the odds are that a conductor would most likely be inclined to believe and perhaps follow the wishes of an attendant, unless said attendant was known to the conductor to be a problem child.

Alan, while you are correct with everything in your response here, I would like to add this.....it should be noted an attendant does have a level of authority within his/her work area. A good attendant will solve an issue by him/herself or between the other attendant (if there is one staffing other cars) without involvement of the conductor. The job of the attendant is to provide customer service to the passenger in order to allow the conductor to focus on the train's operation over the road. When a conductor becomes involved (however he/she does so), they are sorta required to follow the wishes of the attendant unless the attendants claims are groundless which I will explain in the next paragraph. And most conductors as you already know are able to offer other solutions an attendant may not of thought of or not be able to carry out without his/her assistance. Amtrak only provides us with so many "tools" or other means of providing good service. And now that I am a conductor (even though for a freight RR), I see even furthermore the importance of their main responsibility which is the train's safe operation over the road! In other words they don't need the other distractions when the attendant hs the authority to handle them accordingly. I usually worked as a server in the dining car, but when I worked as a train attendant, there were only about three or four occasions when I had to have a passenger "put off" the train, two or three times as a coach TA and once as a sleeper TA.

But opposing a conductor is pretty much like opposing a flight attendant. They are protected by law and one can go to jail for assaulting them, and they definitely have the power to have someone thrown off the train. They best have a good and hopefully verifiable reason for doing so, or a law suit could develop.

All train service (transport service as a whole) employees are covered by federal law, not just conductors and flight attendants. The dining car waiter, train attendant, the employee in charge whether a product line manager or diner/lounge LSA. Any employee had better have a damned good reason for having a passenger put off a train with the ultimate resposibility falling on the conductor (as you have already pointed out). If there is a product line supervisor or other manager on board, then it is their responsibilty to handle the situation and to back the conductor's decision if the ultimate one is made! I had a conductor refuse to follow my wishes on one trip (and my claims were solid), and had to have passengers provide written statements to back me before he heeded my advice. I could have made his life miserable (and he knew I could) if I had taken the copies of the passengers' statements into the crewbase to his supervisor. But alas, I am not that type to go beyond my authority in those instances, but I will not be burned twice!

I’m not sure if there is an “official” policy on this, there may well be one, I just don’t know. I’m guessing that there are probably at least guidelines, even if there isn’t an actual policy. But I do know that the conductor has the power of law on the train, he/she is the master of all they survey. They even have the power to marry people if two passengers are so inclined to do so.

I don't know about the ability to perform a marriage (heh.... I perform marriges every day I guess when I couple these box cars in the yard), but there is an official policy in place at Amtrak regarding removal of a passenger from a train. There is a rather lengthy form that must be filled out called an "involentary removal of passenger from train/premises form." Some of the folks kinda stray from it, though it is not a real good idea as it is there to protect the company, the individual employee(s), as well as the individual being removed believe it or not.

In closing.......

Lucifer, if you happen to read this, be sure to follow the advice of the other posters, and if you haven't already done so, contact customer service to seek some compensation. Anthony provided you with the address in the other thread you started. It also wouldn't hurt to address Alex Kummant (president of Amtrak) either. Keep trying until you get a response! Good luck and try us again sometime maybe in a different region for starters.

OBS...

 

[Sam Damon]

Railroad Dave has this to say on the subject.

Very good link, but don't click his "Tresspass incident" story unless you're prepared for a disturbing and gory picture.

I agree. I should have mentioned that in my original post. He does have some excellent stories, though.

 

[Lucifer]

I have observied people being removed from the train for being drunk on several occassions. This usually results in at least a 30 minute delay if not more.
On a trip on the Texas Eagle between Chicago and LA, I observed a a 3 day saga. This mentally ill person drank and took her medication or didd not take her medication, but either way she was a disruptive force for most of the trip. I had a few strange encounters, and just ignored. Near Dallas, she got involved in a argument with people in another room after they accused her of smoking in her compartment. The conductor had to referee this one after he had spent 90 minutes in the Texas summer fixing an air hose. He deferred and left it for the next conductor.

This woman's behavior escalated betweeen Fort Worth and San Antonio. She argued with her mother, and threw the dinner tray out of the room. She made rude, racist remarks to the attendant when he encouraged her to behave better. She threatend to send a complaint letter to Amtrak to report him. I gave him my card and offfered to be a witness on his behalf. I encouraged other passengers to do so.

The drama continued in similar manner until Tuscon, where they got off. The train was already several hours late, and was delayed more because they were not ready to get off even though they had been properly notified by the crew. The attendant told me later that she had thrown up in the compartment. What a mess!!

I don't know why she was not removed from the train. I suspect her mental illness was part of the issue.

In conclusion, it seems that conductors have a lot of discretion in whether or not to remove somebody from the train.

In Lucifer's case, I feel that it would have been better to move him to another car where he would not have to pass through his former car, for his safety, and the safety of other passengers. This would have alleviated the problem and limited the chancce of further confrontation. If confrontations contiued, then the offending passengers should be removed.

Amen! Exactly what should have happened! The conductor though seemed more into punishing me for my very existence than to alleviate any problems and in fact was completely trying to stir up trouble by trying to insist that the other staff members back her up. After she first wanted me to remain in my isolation room seat when I came forward, after all was said and done and they were about to throw me off the train

after I'd just been threatened by a guy who wanted to throw me down the stairs, she told me that was what I should expect for going back to harass them! I don't see how 2 visits to and from my seat and bar car constitutes harassment but it was her placement of me in the same car that caused me to go in they're direction at all!