At the border check for the Maple Leaf do passengers have to bring all their luggage out with them for the CBP inspection? Sorry if this was covered before. We'll be traveling with two carry ons and two full size luggage.
Maple Leaf border check
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jis
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Yes. You have to take all your baggage with you to the C&I checkpoint. You have to do this at Niagara Falls ON for the CBSA inspection when you are Toronto bound, and at Niagara Falls NY for the US CBP inspection in the opposite direction.
jis
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Yes, it is low platform. I don't know if they have anyone beyond the train Conductors.
From my experience I would not take anything beyond one airline cabin sized rollaboard that I can handle without help, as my luggage on this service.
I would not hope for any high level platform on the Canadian side since the platform has to accommodate GO Transit tri-level equipment.
Devil's Advocate
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It's surprising to me that an international gateway between two modern industrialized democracies can be this clumsy and inconvenient. We're talking about countries that let each other's citizens stay for up to six months without a visa. You can easily bring six months of luggage by private vehicle or commercial plane. Why are trains (and maybe buses) singled out for this absurd situation? Best of luck to the OP and hope it goes smoothly.
*not really expecting an answer, mostly venting because I find this situation ridiculous
We need to come to the realization that the US and Canada are too arrogant, incompetent and uncivilized to run an international passenger train.
Adirondack has just been suspended at least though June 30. Likely CN track issues south of Brossard seeing that 69 got that far and is stopped there, and 68 lost 2 hours earlier today, but no one seems to know at this point.
Adirondack has just been suspended at least though June 30. Likely CN track issues south of Brossard seeing that 69 got that far and is stopped there, and 68 lost 2 hours earlier today, but no one seems to know at this point.
As a frequent border crosser to Canada, it is indeed remarkable how easy crossing both ways in a private vehicle is versus common carriers of any mode. I've spent less time entering Canada by car sometimes than I've spent at California Agricultural Inspection stations (I do have a NEXUS card, which does smooth things).
On the other hand, I've also taken trains, buses, and flown. They are all roughly the same, but I will say that bus passengers seem to get the greatest degree of scrutiny of the three. Rail and air seem equivalent in my experience, buses a bit worse. It is roughly equivalent to arriving by air almost anywhere I've been (including the UK, Germany, France, and South Korea) or returning to the US from the same.
US CBP and Canada's CBSA are roughly equal in my experience in terms of handling people. On average, CBSA is no nicer than CBP. The very worst, rudest and most intrusive inspection I've ever had, anywhere, was entering Canada at Vancouver's Pacific Central Station. In another instance last year, when I went up in March, after most onboard service was reinstituted on the Canadian, but before the Cascades resumed rail service the CBSA agent handling the bus at the Pacific Highway Port of Entry did not even know there was passenger rail service between Vancouver and Toronto, and was very suspicious, even after I showed him my VIA eticket.
CBP has some real prize winners, too.
In the end, there is really no difference between flying and taking the train between the US and Canada in Customs and Immigration inspections in my experience, on either side of the border. By car, yeah, that's generally a lot easier.
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If you return to the US from Montreal or Toronto or Vancouver you clear at the airport. Same by train from Vancouver, if I recall. Rouses Point (the Adirondack) inspects on the train as far as I remember as well. The Leaf is the exception, bags come off. And the idea of showing documentation and checking in separately at NYP but at no other station is pretty hard to rationalize.
I am not counting that useless doc check that Amtrak does at NYP, which I agree is stupid and redundant, and neither CBSA nor CBP pay one bit of attention to those stupid baggage tags. In terms of process, though, the experience of inspections about is the same whether it takes place at US Preclearance or not.
You also have to take all bags off the buses, too, both directions, at least at Pacific Highway and Niagara Falls.
Neither CBP nor CBSA are going to go back to onboard inspections. Both agencies really hate it. It is one of the things preventing resumption of Montrealer type service, neither agency will support another train that has to have onboard inspection, so getting that service back will require a Port of Entry facility at Gare Central. I am actually a bit surprised the agencies allowed the Adirondack to resume with onboard inspections, but I guess it was "grandfathered" in.
Both CBSA and CBP are going to use the "bus" model of inspection at the border for rail service for any future service where they can't do a terminal entry inspection/preclearance. That would probably include Detroit/Windsor or Port Huron/Sarnia if they ever get Chicago-Toronto service back up. That will use the Maple Leaf model, not the Cascades model, because it would not run sealed for the long run within Canada. The best that can be hoped for is that CBSA moves into the Niagara Falls, NY station for inspections, which has high platforms, was designed with dual use in mind, and Canada now how has Preclearance rights for rail in the US. Hopefully any other future service that can't run sealed and does terminal inspection uses a single facility on one side of the border or other.
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Devil's Advocate
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Flying to Canada I never had to hoist my luggage up and down steps or footstools and when traveling with large bags I could use a cart. Flying to the US I cleared customs before boarding instead of getting off and dragging everything through some inspection shack. None of Amtrak's international trains worked as a daytime connection so I had to take a contracted Ambus and that experience was a lot like how people describe the train.
Vancouver was also my worst foreign inspection experience, including infamous gateways like Moscow and Manila. I've received secondary screening in places like Tokyo and Frankfurt but it was still handled in a civil manner unlike primary screening in Vancouver. Every time I think about going back I remember the way I was treated, how they told me my trip to ride a train was a lie, and how they made me feel completely unwelcome.
Buses are the worst in terms of the border inspections, as I mentioned before. For whatever reason officers seem to be even more suspicious of bus passengers than air or rail passengers as impossible as that seems.
Still, inspections at the border inside a Port of Entry are going to remain for bus passengers as well rail passengers where sealed trains and Preclearance are not practicable. That means the Maple Leaf and and any Chicago-Toronto service in the future. The Cascades will still have their inspections at the Vancouver terminal, and the Adirondack will have onboard inspections unless a dual use Port of Entry facility is built in Gare Central. There won't be anymore service between the US and Montreal until and unless there is one.
In any case, I was more addressing the inspection process itself, rather than how one makes one's way to the podium. From that perspective there is very little difference in the process of inspection or the attitudes of the officers between air, rail or bus (allowing for the apparent greater suspicion of bus passengers), Preclearance or no Preclearance. That process is different and generally significantly more stringent than what I've encountered in driving across.
With level boarding at Niagara Falls, NY, I did not find getting up to inspection particularly onerous, with level boarding and a newish port of entry facility with ramps. I am retired, older and I do not travel light, either.
The old station at Niagara Falls, ON is a different story, with low platforms and having to wrestle everything up and down was not fun.
As I said, the most improvement we can reasonably hope for on the Maple Leaf is CBSA deciding to use the modern facility on the New York side which was designed for use by both agencies.
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Things at Vancouver's Pacific Central Station have generally improved for me since I got my NEXUS card. But I think you and I would agree that you shouldn't have to have Trusted Traveler status to be treated civilly.
That didn't extend to crossing on an Ambus at Pacific Highway with a CBSA agent who did not believe Canada still had a few passenger trains and seemed to think my VIA ticket was some kind of forgery.
Everydaymatters
Engineer
After a cruise from and back to Vancouver, I was on what was supposed to be a "sealed" bus back to Seattle. The border inspection was a joke. The border guard got on, told everyone to hold their passports up, walked half way down the aisle and got off.
fdaley
OBS Chief
Big bags, small bags, wheelchairs, walkers, strollers, elderly folks, kids, people with disabilities -- all must pile off at Niagara Falls. It works OK for physically fit adults with light luggage for a weekend trip, but I wouldn't recommend it for anyone else. To connect to our last trip on the Canadian, we took the Adirondack to Montreal, even though it added a day to the itinerary, just because the onboard customs inspection was so much easier to deal with.
At least with a bus, you don't have to encounter steps with suitcases, You just yank them out of the luggage loaders under the bus.
I will never ride the Maple Leaf. If they ever build such a facility north of Rouses Pt along the CN next to the highway facility, and there are plans for that, I will stop riding the Adirondack as well.
I will never ride the Maple Leaf. If they ever build such a facility north of Rouses Pt along the CN next to the highway facility, and there are plans for that, I will stop riding the Adirondack as well.
The document check by Amtrak is not totally useless - from Amtrak's point of view. Every overseas flight I've ever taken involves the airline checking my passport and visa before I board. After all, they don't want to have to pay to fly me home if I'm refused entry. In fact, when I went to China, I couldn't even use the check-in kiosk at Dulles, a real person came and checked my passport and Chinese visa. The silly thing about Amtrak is that they only do it at NYP and not the any other stations before the border where people can board. I am thinking that maybe it's not as big a deal to Amtrak, as I suspect CBSA would just give someone denied entry a ride back to the border, where they can be stranded at their own expense in Niagara Falls. On the other hand, if that's true, then why bother with checking in at NYP? I guess I'll find out how it works, because I'll be taking the Maple Leaf from Albany to Toronto this November.
Although it's an extra expense, would it be possible to ship larger luggage ahead using UPS or Fedex. and then pick it up in Toronto or Montreal?
I hear you. I still do ride the Maple Leaf but I drive to Buffalo and park at Depew to board it. Northbound, I avoid all the NYP nonsense by taking the later train back to Depew. I realize this isn't an option for everyone.
jis
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The Conductor checks, or is supposed to check, the documents for those boarding at intermediate stations when they pick up/scan the ticket. Been there, done that. Boarding the Maple Leaf at Poughkeepsie.
While Amtrak files the APIS II list for the train based on reservations, as do the airlines, they also have to provide the list of actual boardings, and that is done based on the tickets lifted and of course it still remains Amtrak's responsibility to not carry undocumented passengers, so they check the documents. Whether they choose to do so in the station or on board is a logistical detail. Now, if only I could convince myself that Amtrak actually checks all with due diligence or not. But at least checking at the station with 90%+ of the boardings to Canada to catch the undocumented early is a good idea no matter how much some people wish to bellyache about it.
As for border checks, as we move more towards automated processing at immigration checkpoints and human inspectors are sidelined, some of these problems will diminish, though this will happen mostly at airports and not on trains and buses.
This time when I entered the UK at Heathrow the Passport check was using biometric. No human interaction at all. None. And then walk out through the Green Lane. There were several agents eyeing everyone going through, but they were not terribly aggressive in actually stopping anyone when I passed through. When I entered the US at Dulles using Global Entry, on the way back the immigration inspection was biometric. No human involved, except the customs guy who asked if I had anything to declare. No immigration related questions at all.
Now if a Visa is involved that is not an e-Visa electronically attached to your record, I am sure you will have to see an agent.
Devil's Advocate
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Automated systems function well...when everything lines up in the exact manner the designer envisioned. The moment anything deviates from this expectation the automated system will often fail and start dumping unlucky participants into a backup process that takes forever and views any anomaly as suspicious. I've seen this from both sides (supporting automated systems at work and having automated systems fail on me in transit) and it's a double-edged sword at best. In addition the barrier to expand automated systems to disrupt people for completely unrelated (and potentially unconstitutional) reasons is very low.
Ship it to what address ? Is it that a part of a hotel's duty to catch and store your mail ?
New York Penn requires a paper ticket for place to stamp "CANADA" and to stick those useless luggage stickers. Don't count on a QuickTrak machine to print them when you get there. Print the pdf when you make the reservations and treat it as carefully as a hard ticket. I tried to print an extra set for myself from the machine at Princeton Junction last week, and it told me it can't for Canadian tickets - go to a ticket office, or call the 800 number.
Every trip of mine on the Adirondack, they throw one or two people off at the border and they got on at New York City and went though all that Gate Dragon nonsense. They tend to harrass people sitting in end bulkhead seats the most for interviews, or coming back 2 or 3 times to further inquisition them. Sit in the middle of the car and go to the bathroom beforehand after Plattsburgh in case a grouchy one works your car.
jis
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At least the hotels I frequent will all hold bags or mail if notified about it. Then again I do not frequent Motel 6 or equivalent which has a small window on an otherwise solid wall as their front desk, too much.
I have been unable to figure out why on all aspects of especially customer facing operation Amtrak has such difficulty leaving the 20th Century behind.
Border agents can choose to not accept the documents provided as valid, something that no airline or rail company can figure out by themselves. Typically if the passenger has documents the transport company won't be dinged, even if one of the documents is rejected due to some esoteric reason. The rules for documents required to enter Canada or the US from non Anglo-West European group of countries is so complex that no transport company can act as the agents for the border agents. All that they can check is whether the traveler has a Passport and a Visa or Resident Alien Card if so stipulated by the country to be entered. As for whether the Visa is actually valid is hard to determine beyond just checking the dates on it as there a re lists of exceptions, withdrawals and what not running into multiple pages.
Just to add to this, part of the reason for automated systems is to reduce staffing, so if/when such systems fail there are unlikely to be enough humans available to process even close to the same number of people on short notice.
As a sidebar, I recently used the e-gates for Immigration in the UK (currently limited to some countries) and thought it was a great service. However, UK friends and online posters report vastly different experiences when the gates are down or operating incorrectly.
