Midwest Venture introduction

[Bob Dylan]

I’m on the (delayed) 350 right now. It’s an Amfleet Business/Cafe, 1 Venture, and 3 Horizons. And here’s a reason to appreciate the Venture car: the vestibules are snow-free. The other photos are of the Horizon cars on this same train. Kind of absurd how much snow can accumulate inside a train. The attendant is literally shoveling right now.
Also, it’s pretty chilly on these Horizons, but nice and warm on the Venture. Are the Venture cars more air/water tight than older cars? If so, that seems like an advantage to me in this weather.

I am among those who think that Horizons should not be used where Cold Temps with Snow and Ice are Regular Winter occurences.

 

[daybeers]

I am among those who think that Horizons should not be used where Cold Temps with Snow and Ice are Regular Winter occurences.

Same with the Amfleets. Unfortunately no choice in the matter due to the dwindling roster of single-level cars.

 

[PVD]

There are not that many Amtrak single level trains that don't have at least one end in cold weather.

 

[TheMalahat]

I think once people and employees get use to the venture cars they will see the improvement. At first people hated the Amfleet cars but they saved Amtrsk with their reliability during cold winters. At first rail fans disliked the Superliners because of the lack of dome cars with forward views. Now there's concern we will lose the ambiance of the sightseer lounge cars. And there is out rage when one doesn't operate as scheduled.

I think you're right; another one was the perceived end-of-times when the "unreliable" and "ugly" P42s came online. And here we are a few decades later and those locomotives aged well.

However, the implementation of these cars into service is beyond tragic. I'm sure eventually we will get a clear answer to why this is happening - or, not happening.

 

[TransitTyrant]

I think you're right; another one was the perceived end-of-times when the "unreliable" and "ugly" P42s came online. And here we are a few decades later and those locomotives aged well.

However, the implementation of these cars into service is beyond tragic. I'm sure eventually we will get a clear answer to why this is happening - or, not happening.

I would guess Covid played a huge role in it along with the failure at Nippon Sharyo and that cost savings were implemented. Siemens rushed to complete the order during the worst possible time to, the Covid shutdowns. Quality control was clearly lacking. That’s backed up by the claims from crews testing the cars that the first batch delivered had loose ceiling tiles. There were a whole myriad of other issues claimed by various folks in many different quarters of the internet, issues that not need to be mentioned because the cars have actual proven issues.

Cost “savings” came from subcontractors using lead based soder and a rather spartan interior design on the cars. The seats, while the same basic design on Brightline, use stiffer padding and less comfortable materials.

 

[TransitTyrant]

I still saw a bunch the Business class cars together in the yard at Chicago today. I don’t think they’re running yet. From the outside they don’t look very different from the coach cars.
What I’m curious about is the eventual introduction of the cab cars. I don’t know what the timeline is on those.

The cab cars have been under construction for a few months now.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Drove over a Lincoln Service (inbound) on NYD in the morning @ LaGrange Road (have seen them alongside the Stevenson a few times too) with an Amfleet bringing up the read. There is still something quasi-futuristic about the Amfleets, but endearingly clunky at the same time. The Siemens cars really do look more modern, especially the livery.

 

[penguinflies]

Curious What consist is amtrak 307 typically, currently running?

 

[John Bredin]

The Ventures running now aren't in semi-permanent coupled sets. So far today on webcams I saw three trains with one Venture car each, one train with two, and another with three Ventures. All of those trains also had non-Venture cars, and at least one had non-Venture cars both in front of and behind the Venture car(s).

 

[jis]

A large number of posts discussing Venture cars in general and not particularly having much to do with deployment of them in the Midwest have been moved to the general California/Midwest order thread at

Sumitomo and Siemens Venture evolution, development and deployment (2012-2023)

The news is out this morning that Nippon-Sharyo in partnership with Sumitomo Corporation has been selected to build the 130 corridor bi-level cars at their new plant in Rochelle, IL. The bid was only $352 million, well below the amount allocated by the FRA grants, although I'm sure there are...

www.amtraktrains.com

Please post general discussion about Venture cars on that thread and leave this thread to discuss actual deployment of the cars in the Midwest.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

I would just love to have an update on the status of the IDOT cars. Are they going through and fixing the plumbing, table magnets, etc in each one? How many Midwest train frequencies carry them now? Do we have enough cars serviceable now to protect current frequencies? Any chance of equipping Illini and Saluki with them to finally free up those superliners?

 

[TransitTyrant]

I would just love to have an update on the status of the IDOT cars. Are they going through and fixing the plumbing, table magnets, etc in each one? How many Midwest train frequencies carry them now? Do we have enough cars serviceable now to protect current frequencies? Any chance of equipping Illini and Saluki with them to finally free up those superliners?

Pretty much all Midwest trains except the Illini/Saluki and Hiawatha have Ventures. Not every run but about 30 cars are in service as of Dec 22. The Carbondale trains use Superliners because of CN crossing restrictions. Currently a Caltrans F59phi is in Michigan testing new shunts for a possible solution. Recently 4 brand new cars were delivered supposedly with many of issues fixed on the factory floor instead of in the field.

 

[jis]

Pretty much all Midwest trains except the Illini/Saluki and Hiawatha have Ventures. Not every run but about 30 cars are in service as of Dec 22. The Carbondale trains use Superliners because of CN crossing restrictions. Currently a Caltrans F59phi is in Michigan testing new shunts for a possible solution. Recently 4 brand new cars were delivered supposedly with many of issues fixed on the factory floor instead of in the field.

Do you have any insights into what is happening with the Business Class and Food Service cars? IIRC they were supposed to be married pairs, but I could be wrong.

 

[TransitTyrant]

Do you have any insights into what is happening with the Business Class and Food Service cars? IIRC they were supposed to be married pairs, but I could be wrong.

Business class cars are supposed to go into service sometime this year while the cafe coach cars are set to be delivered starting later in the year.

 

[ShiningTimeStL]

Pretty much all Midwest trains except the Illini/Saluki and Hiawatha have Ventures. Not every run but about 30 cars are in service as of Dec 22. The Carbondale trains use Superliners because of CN crossing restrictions. Currently a Caltrans F59phi is in Michigan testing new shunts for a possible solution. Recently 4 brand new cars were delivered supposedly with many of issues fixed on the factory floor instead of in the field.

Wow, thank you for all the info. Where do you get this? Any way for me to stay updated? This is all great news, as long as things continue to work. We really need to free up those superliners on the CN. Makes sense now why they're confident enough to start testing on the gulf coast, they may have just barely freed up enough cars to start service down there.
And I'm assuming the Hiawatha is waiting for cab cars.

Are we going to keep receiving factory-fixed coaches for a while before the business cars show up? Those should really help a lot, too.

Also, any timeline on 110mph on Lincoln? I know it's supposed to be this year. I'm guessing summer.

 

[Fenu S]

Another review on the cars:

 

[Crowbar_k]

Pretty much all Midwest trains except the Illini/Saluki and Hiawatha have Ventures. Not every run but about 30 cars are in service as of Dec 22. The Carbondale trains use Superliners because of CN crossing restrictions. Currently a Caltrans F59phi is in Michigan testing new shunts for a possible solution. Recently 4 brand new cars were delivered supposedly with many of issues fixed on the factory floor instead of in the field.

So, are they just never coming to the Illini/Saluki? The one train I regularly use.

 

[PerRock]

So, are they just never coming to the Illini/Saluki? The one train I regularly use.

They're supposed to be going onto all the Midwest corridor routes, that would include the Illini/Saluki. The rollout of these cars has been extremely slow. I believe the services that have them, only have 1 consists with them on it at the moment.

peter

 

[Amtrak25]

Below I copied out of Wikipedia. Midwest gets some single coaches, all else married pairs, but business class and cafe cars would not be married to each other, which is counter-intuitive to me since the cafe would not be the traditional barrier between business and coach class.

"Of the 97 cars, 68 are built as married pairs (two cars semi-permanently coupled with open gangways) while the remaining 29 are single (unmarried) cars with traditional gangways. Half of the married pairs (17) have a café car and an economy coach, while the remaining 17 have a combination business class/economy class coach and an economy-only coach. The business class and café cars have two vestibules each, while the economy coaches have one.[28] This arrangement—unique among Venture operators—allows trains to be sized to meet the travel demands of individual routes and allows business class seating and cafe cars to be added or removed. Among the 29 single cars are three cab cars with economy seating for exclusive use on Hiawatha Service trains."

I think the Northeast should have gone this way rather than fixed trainsets. Capacity cannot added if adding to consists is ruled out since frequency additions on host railroads is usually impossible, or the states just won't pay for them.

 

[jis]

Below I copied out of Wikipedia. Midwest gets some single coaches, all else married pairs, but business class and cafe cars would not be married to each other, which is counter-intuitive to me since the cafe would not be the traditional barrier between business and coach class.

"Of the 97 cars, 68 are built as married pairs (two cars semi-permanently coupled with open gangways) while the remaining 29 are single (unmarried) cars with traditional gangways. Half of the married pairs (17) have a café car and an economy coach, while the remaining 17 have a combination business class/economy class coach and an economy-only coach. The business class and café cars have two vestibules each, while the economy coaches have one.[28] This arrangement—unique among Venture operators—allows trains to be sized to meet the travel demands of individual routes and allows business class seating and cafe cars to be added or removed. Among the 29 single cars are three cab cars with economy seating for exclusive use on Hiawatha Service trains."

I think the Northeast should have gone this way rather than fixed trainsets. Capacity cannot added if adding to consists is ruled out since frequency additions on host railroads is usually impossible, or the states just won't pay for them.

This is actually a faulty analysis based on lack of understanding. Of course capacity can be added or removed, just a bit more semi-permanently. It takes about half an hour in shop to add or remove a car. Brightline plans to do exactly that with their new cars in 2024 and 2025. Same thing can be done on the NEC or any other Airo set. It is just that it is not worthwhile doing so for a day or two.

 

[Amtrak25]

That's what I mean, on an ad hoc basis, like Wednesday and Sunday of Thanksgiving weekend - I don't think it will happen, like to upstate NY or into Virginia.

 

[Mailliw]

I'm curious which routes would have cafes, but no BC or BC, but no cafe.

 

[jis]

That's what I mean, on an ad hoc basis, like Wednesday and Sunday of Thanksgiving weekend - I don't think it will happen, like to upstate NY or into Virginia.

I don't know what Amtrak will do because you know ... American exceptionalism. But in the rest of the world outfits that operate using fixed consists, and there are a huge number of them, typically run additional trains or run two fixed consists hooked up together to clear holiday crowds.

AFAICT Amtrak does run additional service at least on the NEC on holidays, so maybe they will continue the practice and perhaps double down on it, but there are no guarantees with Amtrak.

I'm curious which routes would have cafes, but no BC or BC, but no cafe.

I suspect Hiawatha Service won't have food service or BC. The Midwest Service trains other than the Hiawatha would have both BC and food service.

 

[IAlam]

I think the Northeast should have gone this way rather than fixed trainsets. Capacity cannot added if adding to consists is ruled out since frequency additions on host railroads is usually impossible, or the states just won't pay for them.

IIRC they were ordered in 6 and 8-car sets if Amtrak really needed extra capacity couldn't they hook up 2 6-car trains to make a 12-car train? Could a 12-car train work on the NEC?

 

[John Bredin]

I believe the services that have them, only have 1 consists with them on it at the moment.

On the St. Louis railcam, you'll definitely see more than one Lincoln Service and one River Runner consist with Ventures.