Moynihan Station in New York

[ThayerATM]

If the new station is used... will parts of the current Penn Station still be used? Or will they be abandoned? (Or does anyone know yet?).

Well the LIRR and New Jersey Transit aren't going anywhere, they'll remain right where they are now. Especially the LIRR, which has its own level. We may see NJT expand into the current Amtrak area, and I'm not sure if Amtrak will totally abandon the current ticket area either, although they may reduce the number of windows. I'd expect to see perhaps some more food places show up on the upper level too, taking over some of the current waiting area most likely.

You folks are going to have to "school" me on this. As I understand it, the Lake Shore Limited comes into the existing Penn Station at (train) track level. I'm assuming that the LSL will come into the new Moynihan Station at that same level.

As I understand it, the next level up is the LIRR level in the existing Penn Station. Then, the next level up is the Amtrak & NJT level, which Amtrak shares with New Jersey Transit, and then up to street level.

Under the NEW plan with Amtrak using the Farley building as it's new Moynihan Station, what's going to become of the two levels between (train) track level and street level? That is (of course) assuming that Amtrak will be using the Farley building as a "grand old station" at street level. :unsure:

No government entity is going to spend the kind of money (even adjusted for inflation) that was spent building Grand Central Station, Penn Station, or Union Station in CHI in the early 20th century. I think the best we can hope for is a larger version of what we already have today.

 

[jis]

In short no level or area that is currently used for passenger circulation space will be abandoned. Farley building will provide a net additional area which will mostly be used by Amtrak. Amtrak might release some space in the current areas, and they will be quickly taken up by NJT and perhaps additional commercial establishments (i.e. shops, restaurants what have you). AFAIK LIRR's situation won't be affected at all by the Farley Building.

Also the trains will come in exactly where they do today, There will be no change in track layout, unless they decide to re-instate the straightening of the diagonal platform to use it as an additional platform for two tracks. Currently there is no funding for doing that. But that can also be done later as long as provision is kept for providing access to such a platform, which I understand is part of the plan, i.e. keeping such provision.

 

[TVRM610]

You folks are going to have to "school" me on this. As I understand it, the Lake Shore Limited comes into the existing Penn Station at (train) track level. I'm assuming that the LSL will come into the new Moynihan Station at that same level.
As I understand it, the next level up is the LIRR level in the existing Penn Station. Then, the next level up is the Amtrak & NJT level, which Amtrak shares with New Jersey Transit, and then up to street level.

Under the NEW plan with Amtrak using the Farley building as it's new Moynihan Station, what's going to become of the two levels between (train) track level and street level? That is (of course) assuming that Amtrak will be using the Farley building as a "grand old station" at street level. :unsure:

No government entity is going to spend the kind of money (even adjusted for inflation) that was spent building Grand Central Station, Penn Station, or Union Station in CHI in the early 20th century. I think the best we can hope for is a larger version of what we already have today.

Well no, not really... I'm not sure if you understand the actual proposal.... not that I do completely either. The station is not being "built" but rather "converted" so the money is being spent on restoration and some re-design perhaps... but the structure that rivals Original Penn Station, Grand Central, etc. is already there, so that doesn't need to get built.

 

[AlanB]

You folks are going to have to "school" me on this. As I understand it, the Lake Shore Limited comes into the existing Penn Station at (train) track level. I'm assuming that the LSL will come into the new Moynihan Station at that same level.
As I understand it, the next level up is the LIRR level in the existing Penn Station. Then, the next level up is the Amtrak & NJT level, which Amtrak shares with New Jersey Transit, and then up to street level.

Under the NEW plan with Amtrak using the Farley building as it's new Moynihan Station, what's going to become of the two levels between (train) track level and street level? That is (of course) assuming that Amtrak will be using the Farley building as a "grand old station" at street level. :unsure:

No government entity is going to spend the kind of money (even adjusted for inflation) that was spent building Grand Central Station, Penn Station, or Union Station in CHI in the early 20th century. I think the best we can hope for is a larger version of what we already have today.

Well no, not really... I'm not sure if you understand the actual proposal.... not that I do completely either. The station is not being "built" but rather "converted" so the money is being spent on restoration and some re-design perhaps... but the structure that rivals Original Penn Station, Grand Central, etc. is already there, so that doesn't need to get built.

Precisely.

Al, when you went upstairs from the Club Acela to take a break from sitting, you were staring at the new Moynihan station directly across the street. It had the big marble steps and huge columns. That's currently the front of the main post office. It will be converted into the "new station". In addition to some cosmetic changes to the front, a sweeping skylight that will be installed, and of course ticketing & lounge facilities, the big change will be that they'll cut holes in the floor of the current post office to reach the tracks below.

But otherwise, nothing about the existing station or track & platform arrangements is changing. Yes Amtrak may give up some space in the existing Penn Station, but all escalators & elevators will remain in place there. The LIRR's entire level will not change and will remain in place.

 

[ThayerATM]

You folks are going to have to "school" me on this. As I understand it, the Lake Shore Limited comes into the existing Penn Station at (train) track level. I'm assuming that the LSL will come into the new Moynihan Station at that same level.
As I understand it, the next level up is the LIRR level in the existing Penn Station. Then, the next level up is the Amtrak & NJT level, which Amtrak shares with New Jersey Transit, and then up to street level.

Under the NEW plan with Amtrak using the Farley building as it's new Moynihan Station, what's going to become of the two levels between (train) track level and street level? That is (of course) assuming that Amtrak will be using the Farley building as a "grand old station" at street level. :unsure:

No government entity is going to spend the kind of money (even adjusted for inflation) that was spent building Grand Central Station, Penn Station, or Union Station in CHI in the early 20th century. I think the best we can hope for is a larger version of what we already have today.

Well no, not really... I'm not sure if you understand the actual proposal.... not that I do completely either. The station is not being "built" but rather "converted" so the money is being spent on restoration and some re-design perhaps... but the structure that rivals Original Penn Station, Grand Central, etc. is already there, so that doesn't need to get built.

OK then. I'll try and "fine tune" my question.

1) Under the new proposal, is Amtrak going to build its new facilities at street level in the Farley Building?

2) Is Amtrak going to build its new facilities under the Farley Building at its current subterranean level?

3) Is Amtrak going to build its new facilities under the Farley Building at the current subterranean LIRR level?

If the answer to #1 is yes, then a "grand old station" is certainly feasable, after restoration.

But if the answer to # 2 or # 3 is yes, then we're bound to end up with facilities that look pretty much like what we've already got today, only larger.

If the answer to all three is yes, then we're really talking about a super station for Amtrak, and I'm all for that. Imagine coming into Moynihan Station at 6:30 PM on the LSL. Imagine simply finding an escalator to the next level up and finding a food court, then claiming your luggage. Imagine finding the next escelator up and finding another food court, and then the Club Acela Lounge. After that you just walk over to the 31st Street/7th Avenue exit, find the escalator up and walk across the street to your hotel. That would be sweet.

Imagine just finding a redcap to take you directly from the trackside to Club Acela, then he/she goes off to claim your luggage and deliver it back to Club Acela. (they already do that) Then all we'd have to do is walk a few steps to a food court. That would be sweeter.

Think it's going to happen? <_< I'm a skeptic. Visions of Sudan chairs and ostrich ploom fans don't enter my equation. :lol:

 

[ThayerATM]

You folks are going to have to "school" me on this. As I understand it, the Lake Shore Limited comes into the existing Penn Station at (train) track level. I'm assuming that the LSL will come into the new Moynihan Station at that same level.
As I understand it, the next level up is the LIRR level in the existing Penn Station. Then, the next level up is the Amtrak & NJT level, which Amtrak shares with New Jersey Transit, and then up to street level.

Under the NEW plan with Amtrak using the Farley building as it's new Moynihan Station, what's going to become of the two levels between (train) track level and street level? That is (of course) assuming that Amtrak will be using the Farley building as a "grand old station" at street level. :unsure:

No government entity is going to spend the kind of money (even adjusted for inflation) that was spent building Grand Central Station, Penn Station, or Union Station in CHI in the early 20th century. I think the best we can hope for is a larger version of what we already have today.

Well no, not really... I'm not sure if you understand the actual proposal.... not that I do completely either. The station is not being "built" but rather "converted" so the money is being spent on restoration and some re-design perhaps... but the structure that rivals Original Penn Station, Grand Central, etc. is already there, so that doesn't need to get built.

Precisely.

Al, when you went upstairs from the Club Acela to take a break from sitting, you were staring at the new Moynihan station directly across the street. It had the big marble steps and huge columns. That's currently the front of the main post office. It will be converted into the "new station". In addition to some cosmetic changes to the front, a sweeping skylight that will be installed, and of course ticketing & lounge facilities, the big change will be that they'll cut holes in the floor of the current post office to reach the tracks below.

But otherwise, nothing about the existing station or track & platform arrangements is changing. Yes Amtrak may give up some space in the existing Penn Station, but all escalators & elevators will remain in place there. The LIRR's entire level will not change and will remain in place.

Alan,

See my following post, which seemingly arrived just after yours did.

 

[AlanB]

Perhaps some of the descriptions and artist renderings at this site may help to answer some of the questions.

 

[railiner]

If you look at the proposed entrances, you can see that they go below the active post office, I still don't think that post office retail section will close. The artist renderings show the proposed 'grand hall', that would fit behind the current postal station and not affect it.

 

[railiner]

To answer ThayerATM....Yes, the floor level of the new grand hall will be well below street level, as there is the little matter of the eigth avenue subway blocking direct access between the two facilities. The passageways will have to be below the subway.

 

[Shanghai]

Thanks to Alan for the Post article. I must have missed it.

I hope the plan goes through. It will be a giant plus for New York and for Amtrak.

It will open new space and additional facilities for both Amtrak and the commuter traffic.

New York needs an improved station and to expand comfort to the travelers.

 

[jis]

See a picture of what the Moynihan Concourse will look like here. The main concourse will be in what is the courtyard of the building.

The entrance from 8th Ave will still be at street level under the main Post Office floor. There have been talks on again off again about a grand entrance from 31st St. I don;t know where that stands at present. The plans have changed several times over the last 3 years.

 

[Guest_palmland_*]

Excellent track diagram of Penn Station - thanks. It does make me wonder, again, why Amtrak doesn't schedule some run through Regional or Keystone trains to Albany. I would think it would help passengers wanting to travel through, eliminate some switching, and take some pressure off the much maligned Sunnyside yard.

 

[jis]

Excellent track diagram of Penn Station - thanks. It does make me wonder, again, why Amtrak doesn't schedule some run through Regional or Keystone trains to Albany. I would think it would help passengers wanting to travel through, eliminate some switching, and take some pressure off the much maligned Sunnyside yard.

One of the things in real short supply in Penn Station specially at rush hours is platform space. Getting a Keystone or Regional from the south/west to head out on the Empire connection will require them to change power and reverse direction in Penn Station which will take away some more of the scarce resource for no huge gain, since those people can as easily change trains and get to Albany.

I don't understand what switching is eliminated. Actually it adds to the congestion at one of the most serious pinch points in Penn Station which is A interlocking. Trains coming in from Albany must arrive into tracks 5 through 8 and then to depart towards Philly they must ladder across every track and incoming traffic from the west at A interlocking to make it onto track 2. As it is, it is bad enough that NJT trains from tracks 1-4 have to do this to depart west.

The way to deal with Sunnyside is to fix the management problems there and not to stop using it for the purpose that it exists.

 

[railiner]

The way to make NYP super-efficient would be if NJT and LIRR had compatible power systems, then run all NJT trains thru to various destinations on LIRR. The remaining LIRR trains (since they have more) would go to West Side Yard. This way no trains, except a few Amtrak, would have to layover and block use of tracks.

In this scenario, they could actualy eliminate some tracks, and make the platforms wider.

Of course, this would only happen in my dreams.

 

[railiner]

See a picture of what the Moynihan Concourse will look like here. The main concourse will be in what is the courtyard of the building.
The entrance from 8th Ave will still be at street level under the main Post Office floor. There have been talks on again off again about a grand entrance from 31st St. I don;t know where that stands at present. The plans have changed several times over the last 3 years.

Thanks for that link. What the drawing does not show is that there is a second, similar courtyard further west, extending to ninth avenue. What a great hotel/retail complex this whole building could become if used that way.

And its terrific location halfway between Madison Square Garden and the Javits Convention Center, not to mention access to Amtrak and trains connecting to the airports, and proximity to the Lincoln Tunnel, would almost guarantee a hotels success.

 

[jis]

The way to make NYP super-efficient would be if NJT and LIRR had compatible power systems, then run all NJT trains thru to various destinations on LIRR. The remaining LIRR trains (since they have more) would go to West Side Yard. This way no trains, except a few Amtrak, would have to layover and block use of tracks. In this scenario, they could actualy eliminate some tracks, and make the platforms wider.

Of course, this would only happen in my dreams.

Yes, I know this is mentioned over and over again by some about how there is 25% additional capacity to be had by just running through everything. Unfortunately people who have done detailed modeling of traffic flow through Penn Station come to a different conclusion, so much so that Amtrak categorically refused to support these vague run through ideas as long as people keep making such unrealistic claims

NJT trains lay over only on tracks 1 through 4. Well actually even there they vacaste those tracks by pulling out to A yard and the other yard to the west of those tracks to make room for additional arrivals during rush hours. All others generally can and do run through to Sunnyside anyway. It could make sense to run some of them out to high traffic points on LIRR like Babylon or Ronkonkoma and in exchange run some LIRR trains to high traffic points like Trenton and Long Branch. Of course there are costs involved in getting capital to acquire a common equipment pool for such service and it is not clear that that is the best use of scarce capital funds at this time.

In general it is a bad idea to run empty trains just putting on miles on cars and wasting energy, to far away points just for the sake of through running, when there are yards available for stabling close by to the city center already, and there will be more such with the building of the NJT Kopper's Coke yard.

The only Amtrak trains that lay over in NYP are a few Keystones. The rest, including all Empire Service train run through to Sunnyside. So trains that lay over in NYP are not a huge problem today. OTOH somewhat less than ideal overall traffic planning and execution is a problem, but same screwups can be equally executed even with run throughs

None of the run through plans will remove the bottleneck at A Intelocking inside Penn Station and at Harold by Sunnyside. Indeed it could make the situation worse at Harold potentially putting more trains through it. A interlocking congestion mitigation will require the building of at least one tunnel under 31st street providing egress from tracks 1-4 to Sunnyside. Mitigation of congestion at Harold involves removing conflicts between LIRR and Amtrak, which is being addressed as part of the ESA related track realignment at Harold. The third congestion mitigation issue at A interlocking would involve building a connection from the Empire connection to the LIRR side of the complex. But since the level of traffic on the Empire connection is not expected to ever be more than 3-4 trains per hour this is a relatively minor issue. BTW, if Amtrak's Plan 780 ever gets built it will substantially mitigate A interlocking congestion almost completely.

 

[jis]

Thanks for that link. What the drawing does not show is that there is a second, similar courtyard further west, extending to ninth avenue. What a great hotel/retail complex this whole building could become if used that way.And its terrific location halfway between Madison Square Garden and the Javits Convention Center, not to mention access to Amtrak and trains connecting to the airports, and proximity to the Lincoln Tunnel, would almost guarantee a hotels success.

You are welcome. That is where they wanted to move Madison Square Garden to in one of the various plans! Of course that is not happening anymore, so that courtyard is available for doing something else, but at present there appear to be no takers. Everybody's money bin seems to be exhausted.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Yes, I know this is mentioned over and over again by some about how there is 25% additional capacity to be had by just running through everything. Unfortunately people who have done detailed modeling of traffic flow through Penn Station come to a different conclusion

I don't have detailed knowledge of reverse peak commuter service at NYP. Is it the case that 25% of peak commuter trains at NYP correspond to a reverse peak revenue trip, and 75% correspond to a train deadheading to/from a nearby yard?

What's the typical dwell time to unload a full morning peak train at NYP, and then load up the reverse peak passengers, and what's the typical time required to reverse a train's direction? Are the two quantities similar enough that if the crew reverses direction while people unload and load, there is not much time wasted by reversing direction, given the need to spend time at the platform exchanging passengers anyway?

BTW, if Amtrak's Plan 780 ever gets built it will substantially mitigate A interlocking congestion almost completely.

What is Plan 780?

 

[nferr]

You just described a pretty edifice with which to enter the station.

Sure if you say so

 

[jis]

I don't have detailed knowledge of reverse peak commuter service at NYP. Is it the case that 25% of peak commuter trains at NYP correspond to a reverse peak revenue trip, and 75% correspond to a train deadheading to/from a nearby yard?

I don't know the exact figures, but that is probably in the ballpark. However, except for those trains that arrive into tracks 1- 4, in general trains unload and move on to Synnyside to either get stabled there or come back later to run as a commercial service. There are some that reverse out of the station back to NJ as X trains. In the evening there are some empties that arrive from NJ as X trains and reverse in the platform to pick up passengers and depart for NJ. There are others that come in from Sunnyside, pickup passengers and then proceed to NJ. Turning an empty to a commercial service or vice versa I imagine takes maybe 5 to 7 mins.

What's the typical dwell time to unload a full morning peak train at NYP, and then load up the reverse peak passengers, and what's the typical time required to reverse a train's direction? Are the two quantities similar enough that if the crew reverses direction while people unload and load, there is not much time wasted by reversing direction, given the need to spend time at the platform exchanging passengers anyway?

Due to operational reasons trains are not scheduled with links that depend on a train arriving and immediately reversing and going out as a scheduled service because the operating companies appear to be quite incapable of maintaining the necessary schedule discipline to make that actually work. So in typical operation the train comes in discharges its passengers and proceeds through to Sunnyside, to return later for its return journey pickup. this is to clear the platform tracks for subsequent arrivals. Also, taking it around Sunnyside allows the train to be brought into a plaform on the correct side of A interlocking thus avoiding conflicts at A interlocking.

During weekends on tracks 1 - 4 NJT turns trains in platform and typically they are scheduled for 20 to 25 minutes in the platform to do the turn. Of course on weekends this is not a problem since there are only 4 trains to handle per hour.

What is Plan 780?

Block 780 is the block between 7th and 8th Ave. with 31st St. on the north and 30th St. on the south. Plan 780 is to create a station under that block where a new pair of tunnels would come in from the west. It would have upto 6 tracks, and those tracks + tracks 1 through 4 of the current NYP could be connected to Sunnyside through a pair of tunnels under 31st St. Last year there was a flap between Amtrak and NJT because the NJT tunnels were potentially getting in the way of the tunnels that would come into Plan 780 station. The flap ended with NJT agreeing to keep clear the path of such tunnels. This was mentioned at the NARP NJ/PA/DE region meeting in Bordentown last year.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

During weekends on tracks 1 - 4 NJT turns trains in platform and typically they are scheduled for 20 to 25 minutes in the platform to do the turn. Of course on weekends this is not a problem since there are only 4 trains to handle per hour.

I thought six. 3 round trips, NJCL, NEC, and M&E. Where am I off?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Turning an empty to a commercial service or vice versa I imagine takes maybe 5 to 7 mins.

OK, that maybe almost explains why people think the platforms cannot be widened by removing some platform tracks.

If you think of each East River tunnel track as handling a train every 2.5 minutes for 24 trains per hour (I think NJT may even claim to be able to get 25 trains per hour through a North River tunnel track in the peak direction), and it takes 7 minutes to load or unload a train, assigning three platform tracks to each East River tunnel track may not really be enough to keep the East River tunnel tracks at capacity, because half a minute may not be enough to deal with moving a train out and the next train in from the opposite side.

If you believe you need four platform tracks per East River tunnel track, you need 16 platform tracks corresponding to the four East River tunnel tracks, and the current configuration has 17 platform tracks connected to the four East River tunnel tracks.

That does leave me wondering whether the platforms could be widened by eliminating five platform tracks if tracks 1-4 could be connected through to Long Island.

 

[National Limited]

What is the function/purpose of the diagonal platform? Is it possible to get to the diagonal platform from any passenger gate?

 

[railiner]

What is the function/purpose of the diagonal platform? Is it possible to get to the diagonal platform from any passenger gate?

The diagonal platform was used to load US Mail onto set out storage or baggage cars. There is no passenger access to it. Employees only walk to the west end of a passenger platform, descend to track level, and use a walkway for access. There are a couple of freight elevators that go from the diagonal directly up to the post office sorting facility.

It hasn't been used for many years.

 

[National Limited]

I would imagine with its size that it couldn't possible be used for passenger service--too short. So I wonder why someone in a previous post mentioned its rebuilding to add additional platform space? Could it be connected somehow to an already existing platform?