Moynihan Station in New York
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Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I like the general concept behind Moynihan, but I think that does very little for the transit around the area. The only thing is, I think that by producing a train station under Moynihan, Amtrak might be able to expand the train station's capacity by placing some platforms west of the existing platforms. It'll never happen, but its a thought.
ThayerATM
OBS Chief
Granted, we're not native NYC residents. But as tourists going in, around, and through Penn Station it never appeared crowded.
I'm a little surprised that there's talk about expanding Amtrak facilities by spending all that money to move to the Moynihan location. What's wrong with it the way it is today? :unsure:
I'm a little surprised that there's talk about expanding Amtrak facilities by spending all that money to move to the Moynihan location. What's wrong with it the way it is today? :unsure:
jis
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Only possible additional platform, and that too for short trains would be the diagonal platform. Other than that there is absolutely no space for any additional platforms down there.
Yeah, you've never seen it crowded then. The LIRR section is the worst with crowded, but even the Amtrak side of things can get pretty crowded during rush hour. Add to that the low ceilings and things get pretty claustrophobic. It would be great to enter the nations biggest city by train in a nice facility.
G
Guest
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OK, for us dumb out-of-towners, where is Moynihan Station in relationship to NY's Penn Station?
If built, it is a reuse of the former Farley Post Office building, just to the west of Penn Station. The track/plaform infrastructure of Penn Station extends under this former Post Office, since it was built in the day when mail moved by rail.
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GML, How would the proposed station access the existing tracks? Would access be through the existing Penn Station concourse? Or would there be a new alignment of tracks under the new station?
MattW
Conductor
Is there a track-map plan for this new development? I've looked around, but can only find general layout plans and such.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
My understanding is that the basic platform layout is going to remain the same. I am unconvinced that it is impossible to add platforms with this new set up, but it is not in the plan and most people involved believe it to be impossible. Farley will, possibly provide a new set of entrances to those existing platforms, but I think it will primarily be a pretty edifice in which to enter the station, much like that of Chicago Union Station's Great Hall.
Como,
The original Penn Station stood between 7th & 8th Avenues and 31st & 33rd Streets. Track 1 is closest to 31st Street and track #21 is closest to 33rd Street. All the platforms start either within a few feet of 7th Avenue or in the case of two, under 7th Avenue. Platforms 10 & 11, which serve tracks 18 - 21 start under 7th Ave.
All platforms save #'s 1 & 2 (tracks 1-4) extend under 8th Avenue, with platforms 5, 6, & 7 nearly reaching 9th Avenue. All other platforms reach to various points in between 8th & 9th Aves. The LIRR currently has an access corridor that is on the far side of 8th Avenue from Penn Station that serves the highest platform numbers.
The Farley post office sits between 8th & 9th Avenues and between 31st & 33rd Streets. So in all cases, if one were standing in the current customer area of the Post office and the floor collapsed, you would either land on a track or a platform. And the customer area stretches the width of the post office between 31st & 33rd Street.
So if this plan actually goes get built, the "new Penn Station" will take over the current customer area of the post office as well as the area where the clerks currently work to assist those customers. Basically the new station will take up about half the distance from 8th Avenue to 9th Avenue. For the highest numbered tracks/platforms, they'll probably just tie right into the current LIRR access corridor, even though Amtrak never uses tracks 17 - 21. For the other tracks they'll have to cut through the floor to install elevators & escalators to reach the platforms, but except for platforms 1 & 2 it will be a straight drop into the basement. Amtrak never uses tracks 1 - 4 since those tracks dead end at 7th Avenue and therefore you cannot get to Sunnyside yard. It would be possible to still build a corridor to reach those tracks, and when NJT was considering moving to Moynihan station, that was the plan. I'm not sure if that will happen now though.
The original Penn Station stood between 7th & 8th Avenues and 31st & 33rd Streets. Track 1 is closest to 31st Street and track #21 is closest to 33rd Street. All the platforms start either within a few feet of 7th Avenue or in the case of two, under 7th Avenue. Platforms 10 & 11, which serve tracks 18 - 21 start under 7th Ave.
All platforms save #'s 1 & 2 (tracks 1-4) extend under 8th Avenue, with platforms 5, 6, & 7 nearly reaching 9th Avenue. All other platforms reach to various points in between 8th & 9th Aves. The LIRR currently has an access corridor that is on the far side of 8th Avenue from Penn Station that serves the highest platform numbers.
The Farley post office sits between 8th & 9th Avenues and between 31st & 33rd Streets. So in all cases, if one were standing in the current customer area of the Post office and the floor collapsed, you would either land on a track or a platform. And the customer area stretches the width of the post office between 31st & 33rd Street.
So if this plan actually goes get built, the "new Penn Station" will take over the current customer area of the post office as well as the area where the clerks currently work to assist those customers. Basically the new station will take up about half the distance from 8th Avenue to 9th Avenue. For the highest numbered tracks/platforms, they'll probably just tie right into the current LIRR access corridor, even though Amtrak never uses tracks 17 - 21. For the other tracks they'll have to cut through the floor to install elevators & escalators to reach the platforms, but except for platforms 1 & 2 it will be a straight drop into the basement. Amtrak never uses tracks 1 - 4 since those tracks dead end at 7th Avenue and therefore you cannot get to Sunnyside yard. It would be possible to still build a corridor to reach those tracks, and when NJT was considering moving to Moynihan station, that was the plan. I'm not sure if that will happen now though.
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GML,
There is simply no space in the current track configuration to allow for more platforms or to reconfigure things. Building upon my post above, here's how it works out now. The two tunnels under the North River essentially pop up right at 10th Avenue. As the tracks cross under 10th Ave you hit the first two switches that start what eventually becomes 6 throat tracks numbered 1X - 6X. This is completed just before the midpoint between 10th & 9th Aves.
Just on the other side of the midpoint, after you've barely had time to take a breath, one hits the first switch leading to the outermost of two ladder tracks. That outermost ladder track runs from literally just feet shy of the midpoint between 9th & 10th Aves all the way to 8th Ave. It reaches track #1 just after it has crossed under 8th Avenue. It's so tight that the inner ladder track does not serve track one at all. A train headed to/from track #1 can only use the outer ladder track. Lengthening any platform would push those ladder tracks right into the mouth of the tunnels.
And of course there is the issue of how does one build two new ladder tracks without cutting off access to the station. They can't afford to lose even one track, much less half the station at one time.
Additionally, moving the ladder tracks were it even feasible, now shortens the 10 or so yard tracks that NJT has available to them reducing daytime storage or at least forcing shorter trains. It's also quite likely that lengthening the plats would prevent track #8 from reaching the Empire Connection tunnel, reducing the number of tracks to just 3 that can get into the tunnel. And Amtrak likes to put the Lake Shore on track #8 whenever possible, as that side of platform #4 is a bit longer than the track #7 side is due to the tapers for the ladder tracks on either end.
There is simply no space in the current track configuration to allow for more platforms or to reconfigure things. Building upon my post above, here's how it works out now. The two tunnels under the North River essentially pop up right at 10th Avenue. As the tracks cross under 10th Ave you hit the first two switches that start what eventually becomes 6 throat tracks numbered 1X - 6X. This is completed just before the midpoint between 10th & 9th Aves.
Just on the other side of the midpoint, after you've barely had time to take a breath, one hits the first switch leading to the outermost of two ladder tracks. That outermost ladder track runs from literally just feet shy of the midpoint between 9th & 10th Aves all the way to 8th Ave. It reaches track #1 just after it has crossed under 8th Avenue. It's so tight that the inner ladder track does not serve track one at all. A train headed to/from track #1 can only use the outer ladder track. Lengthening any platform would push those ladder tracks right into the mouth of the tunnels.
And of course there is the issue of how does one build two new ladder tracks without cutting off access to the station. They can't afford to lose even one track, much less half the station at one time.
Additionally, moving the ladder tracks were it even feasible, now shortens the 10 or so yard tracks that NJT has available to them reducing daytime storage or at least forcing shorter trains. It's also quite likely that lengthening the plats would prevent track #8 from reaching the Empire Connection tunnel, reducing the number of tracks to just 3 that can get into the tunnel. And Amtrak likes to put the Lake Shore on track #8 whenever possible, as that side of platform #4 is a bit longer than the track #7 side is due to the tapers for the ladder tracks on either end.
As an alternative, what would be the engineering feasibility to adding a second (lower) track level to Penn Station, somewhat in the manner of the LIRR extension into GCT?
Once completed, it would allow a section by section revamping of the current level to perhaps remove a couple of tracks and make the platforms wider and more accessible.
Once completed, it would allow a section by section revamping of the current level to perhaps remove a couple of tracks and make the platforms wider and more accessible.
ThayerATM
OBS Chief
:lol:
This scares me. I guess I've been hanging around here too much. I even understand what you're talking about in this, and the previous post.
I think we'll try another couple of days in NYC again, but probably won't venture far away from Penn Station except to sleep, just so we can observe up-close-and-personal how this might work. I like an excuse to take a train ride.
They did indeed consider trying to add a lower level, that the new tunnels would have then linked to.
I seem to recall that there were some issues with the stability of the ground under the existing station that made it too dangerous to excavate below the existing tracks.
It's going to be a lot more than just a pretty edifice to enter the station. The Amtrak waiting areas, ticketing areas, boarding gates etc. are all supposed to be in the new station. The ceiling will be very tall and all glass a bit akin to the classic Penn Station.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
You just described a pretty edifice with which to enter the station.
Several years ago there was a very nice diagram online that shows all of what I've tried to describe via words above. I had saved a copy of that diagram, but have never been able to find it since online. So I wasn't sure if it had been taken down or what. However, I just found it online again. I'm not sure if this was the original source or not, but since it is still up and online, as the old saying goes "a picture is worth a thousand words", so without further ado you can see how things look at NYP by clicking here.
And just to quickly review, the current Penn Station sits over the area bounded by 7th Ave, 31st Street, 8th Ave, and 33rd Street. The new Amtrak Moynihan station will sit over the area bounded by 33rd Street, 8th Ave, and 31st Street and extend perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 the way to 9th Ave.
Also when looking at that diagram, the two dotted lines to the far left under 10th Ave are what's called the North River tunnels (aka the Hudson River tunnels). The dotted line with the little hook on the end is the Empire Connection tunnel that leads to the West side rail line and eventually Albany.
And just to quickly review, the current Penn Station sits over the area bounded by 7th Ave, 31st Street, 8th Ave, and 33rd Street. The new Amtrak Moynihan station will sit over the area bounded by 33rd Street, 8th Ave, and 31st Street and extend perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 the way to 9th Ave.
Also when looking at that diagram, the two dotted lines to the far left under 10th Ave are what's called the North River tunnels (aka the Hudson River tunnels). The dotted line with the little hook on the end is the Empire Connection tunnel that leads to the West side rail line and eventually Albany.
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I was under the impression that the Post Office wanted to retain that still used retail portion of the building. It is probably the most photographed and famous post office in the world. Always the site of news crews televising last minute taxpayers on April 15th, and used as a general file shot for all matters pertaining to the Postal Service. It has been the site of innumerable films, etc.
I thought that the sorting facilities behind it, and beneath it was where the Amtrak station would be located.
Since the new tunnels won't connect with the existing Penn Station, there will be no affect on what you currently see in that diagram.
Another question, I have read that tracks 6 to 9 are used for all northbound trains leaving Penn Station.
Where do the track curve to the north when leaving NYP in an eastbound direction. I recall the LSL comes down 10th Ave
from the north when arriving from Albany and I don't recall the train turning before a northside entrance to NYP.
Where do the track curve to the north when leaving NYP in an eastbound direction. I recall the LSL comes down 10th Ave
from the north when arriving from Albany and I don't recall the train turning before a northside entrance to NYP.
Actually it's tracks 5-8 that can go north, track #9 misses the connection to the north. If you're on track 9, you're not going north to Albany.
And you can't go north in the eastbound direction, at least to Albany. You must be going west out of Penn to reach the Empire Connection. If you're going east out of Penn, then you're going to Boston.
On the LSL, and the Empire trains for that matter, the turn occurs in the Empire Connection tunnel. So unless you're staring at the car ahead of you, you won't notice the turn.
And you can't go north in the eastbound direction, at least to Albany. You must be going west out of Penn to reach the Empire Connection. If you're going east out of Penn, then you're going to Boston.
On the LSL, and the Empire trains for that matter, the turn occurs in the Empire Connection tunnel. So unless you're staring at the car ahead of you, you won't notice the turn.
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TVRM610
Conductor
I'm very excited about this project.... I think there are so many fantastic possibilities. I don't particularly mind Penn Station as is, I've come to like it as being such a great part of visiting NYC... however I really get excited thinking about New York getting a "new" "old" station.. what a fantastic idea. I think that no matter how you look at it.. the Current Penn Station is in serious need of renovation. The idea of being able to build a new station layout within a beautiful historic structure just makes all the sense in the world to me.
If the new station is used... will parts of the current Penn Station still be used? Or will they be abandoned? (Or does anyone know yet?).
If the new station is used... will parts of the current Penn Station still be used? Or will they be abandoned? (Or does anyone know yet?).
Well the LIRR and New Jersey Transit aren't going anywhere, they'll remain right where they are now. Especially the LIRR, which has its own level. We may see NJT expand into the current Amtrak area, and I'm not sure if Amtrak will totally abandon the current ticket area either, although they may reduce the number of windows. I'd expect to see perhaps some more food places show up on the upper level too, taking over some of the current waiting area most likely.
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