Need for Sleeping Accommodations on Certain Trains

[Evan's Trains]

Hi, does anybody think certain trains are too long to go without the option of a sleeper? I think there are some routes that should, because assuming you would traveling from one endpoint to another endpoint, or a point thats near the endpoint could indeed be quite a long time without having a comfy place to relax and lay down.

What are your thoughts on these routes?

Palmetto

Carolinian

Pennsylvanian

Northeast Regional Trains 65, 66, 67

In my opinion I think the Palmetto would be in most need of them because the journey is 16 HOURS which is almost the same as the Capitol Limited which is just one hour more

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Since these are mainly day trains (except for the Regionals) I could see a Parlor Car type accomodation over a traditional Sleeper. And an Enhanced Food Service but the way Amtrak has been heading this won't happen.

 

[Evan's Trains]

Since these are mainly day trains (except for the Regionals) I could see a Parlor Car type accomodation over a traditional Sleeper. And an Enhanced Food Service but the way Amtrak has been heading this won't happen.

I see these are mostly daytime trains, but I still think 16 hours on a train regardless of day or night people will be tired and would still sleep no matter what time

 

[MikefromCrete]

Only 65/66/67 have a need for a sleeper or two. The others are day trains. Some kind of business class/parlor car would be appropriate, but I don't think there would be much demand for sleeper accommodations.

 

[capltd29]

Whether or not people could use a place to lay down and sleep on a day trip is one thing. The bigger question is whether enough of these people will pay enough of a surcharge for this service to cover the expense of purchasing new equipment for the service. Having a real business class section using existing equipment (as is starting to be done on a number of trains currently) is probably the closest we'll get in the near future.

 

[StriderGDM]

Given Amtrak doesn't have enough sleepers as it is, and the new round is years from actually increasing the usable number, I can't see any of these getting sleepers except maybe 65/66/67.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Hi, does anybody think certain trains are too long to go without the option of a sleeper? I think there are some routes that should, because assuming you would traveling from one endpoint to another endpoint, or a point thats near the endpoint could indeed be quite a long time without having a comfy place to relax and lay down.

What are your thoughts on these routes?

Palmetto

Carolinian

Pennsylvanian

Northeast Regional Trains 65, 66, 67

In my opinion I think the Palmetto would be in most need of them because the journey is 16 HOURS which is almost the same as the Capitol Limited which is just one hour more

Well the plan is a Pennsylvanian-Capitol Limited connection but that was five years ago.

I would like to see more overnight service where you can go to bed on one end and wake up on another but that requires sleepers that Amtrak is in short supply of.

 

[Anderson]

Amtrak could seriously use a decent "upgrade class" on a lot of trains...three classes of service would be nice, for example.

As to "sleeper" space, adjust the room design slightly (larger table, for example) and market it as an "office space on the rails". I suspect there's a market for something like that (alongside perhaps a European-style compartment as "working space" in an otherwise "normal" car...I'll tell you that I'll pay a nice premium for being in a space where I don't have to listen to a baby crying or where I can talk about something sensitive to business with a reduced risk of being overheard). It's all in the marketing...

...but I do believe that the Soreliner needs a sleeping car. Badly.

 

[neroden]

Hi, does anybody think certain trains are too long to go without the option of a sleeper? I think there are some routes that should, because assuming you would traveling from one endpoint to another endpoint, or a point thats near the endpoint could indeed be quite a long time without having a comfy place to relax and lay down.

What are your thoughts on these routes?

Palmetto

People who really want the sleeper can take the Silver Meteor on the same route.

Carolinian

There's the Silver Star for Raleigh & Cary and the Crescent for the Triad & Charlotte, which satisfies most of the demand. That only leaves Durham and Burlington without direct sleeper service to the northeast.

Pennsylvanian

Yes, this needs sleepers. For the passengers connecting to the Capitol Limited to Chicago. Thankfully this is actually proposed in the PIP and hopefully will happen when the new Viewliner sleepers arrive.

Northeast Regional Trains 65, 66, 67

Yes.

There's a point here: when there are multiple trains on the same route, it may make sense to have one train carry all the sleepers, and one train run all-coach.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Carolinian

There's the Silver Star for Raleigh & Cary and the Crescent for the Triad & Charlotte, which satisfies most of the demand. That only leaves Durham and Burlington without direct sleeper service to the northeast.

Well the Crescent leaves Charlotte at 1:46am and Greensboro at 3:44am. Maybe you do it for Charlotte, but for Greensboro why stay up half the night so you can use a sleeper for just the other half?

I wonder if Amtrak/South Carolina/Georgia would ever consider extending one of the Piedmont trains to Atlanta to give daytime North Carolina to Atlanta service. Assuming around six hours between Charlotte and Atlanta (according to Crescent schedule) Train 75 would get to Atlanta around 9pm and Train 76 can leave Atlanta around 11am.

Looking at the Silver Service, the Silver Star leaves Raleigh for Florida at 9:01pm and gets into Raleigh from Florida 10:25am. Piedmont 76 gets into Raleigh at 8:26pm and Piedmont 75 leaves Raleigh 11:45am. Would Amtrak guarantee these connections? If not, they should shift the 75 and 76 schedules to allow Florida to Charlotte/Greensboro service connecting in Raleigh even if they don't go through to Atlanta.

I don't see why they can't shift 75 going south. They may want to keep 75 out of Charlotte going north at 5:15pm but they can also shift the Silver Star 91 going to Florida back an hour or hour and a half. Amtrak said in the PRIAA they wanted to reroute a Silver Service train through Charlotte but the reroute had problems. So Amtrak knows there is a demand from Charlotte/Greensboro to Florida. Why not make the Raleigh connection more feasible then?

Speaking of Atlanta, are there any reasonable tracks to connect Atlanta to any of the Florida cities (JAX, ORL, TPA, MIA)?

 

[jis]

Just as a point of information, it is NCDOT that gets to decide the schedule of Piedmonts, not Amtrak by itself.

If NCDOT decides that connection to Florida is important they are the ones that can adjust the schedule of heir train. NCDOT at present is much more focused facing north towards the NEC than the south e.g. Atlanta or Florida. As you have pointed out, they could improve connections to Florida by some simple tweaks. I think their intention is to develop Raleigh as a hub of sorts going forward, but they are not there yet.

The fact that Georgia and South Carolina as a matter of political demagoguery seem to be unable to support any sort of passenger rail facility, which makes any extension towards Atlanta difficult to achieve, at least until the political climate changes in those states.

As far as possible routes to the southeast from Atlanta go, there are a few available, specifically at least one CSX and one NS trunk to Savannah or Jacksonville. I am not familiar with the state of those tracks.

 

[Eric S]

It's worth keeping in mind that the Piedmont trains operate with equipment owned by North Carolina, and as Jis just mentioned, their schedules are set by NC, not Amtrak.

I keep expecting something to break in Georgia, where some passenger rail service (not MARTA rail transit, but commuter rail or intercity rail) actually makes it through to the construction and operation stage, but so far that hasn't happened and I have no idea what/when/where it will actually happen.

 

[Palmetto]

I'll say that on long day trips, some sort of upscale daytime configuration would be a plus. The New Haven Railroad ran parlor cars with swivel seats, and they also had day roomettes and drawing rooms for privacy. Both had the capability of tables. Add an electric outlet to power up computers and the like, and it might draw some business folks too on medium distance routes who'd like to get some work done en route.

 

[jis]

Day roomettes would be nice. I have used roomettes in Silver Star for such traveling between Kissimmee and Tampa or similar intra-Florida use. This was after the removal of the Diner. I have refrained from doing so on the Silver Meteor because the upcharge is too high. I have no idea how many people will actually spring for the upcharge. The upcharge will need to be reasonable for such a thing to succeed. In any case I am not sure if creation of a new type of car of which less than 50 will probably be needed will be given much priority to by the powers that be. OTOH doing something like this on a single train like the Palmetto using leased equipment to try it out as an experiment may be more feasible just to establish the viability or lack thereof.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Just as a point of information, it is NCDOT that gets to decide the schedule of Piedmonts, not Amtrak by itself.

If NCDOT decides that connection to Florida is important they are the ones that can adjust the schedule of heir train. NCDOT at present is much more focused facing north towards the NEC than the south e.g. Atlanta or Florida. As you have pointed out, they could improve connections to Florida by some simple tweaks. I think their intention is to develop Raleigh as a hub of sorts going forward, but they are not there yet.

The fact that Georgia and South Carolina as a matter of political demagoguery seem to be unable to support any sort of passenger rail facility, which makes any extension towards Atlanta difficult to achieve, at least until the political climate changes in those states.

As far as possible routes to the southeast from Atlanta go, there are a few available, specifically at least one CSX and one NS trunk to Savannah or Jacksonville. I am not familiar with the state of those tracks.

Well they already have the Carolinian heading north to the NEC. None of the Piedmonts currently scheduled would arrive in NYP at reasonable times. If a train leaves Charlotte at 10am, it would arrive in NYP before midnight. Likewise, the train would have to leave NYP around 10:30am to get to Charlotte before midnight.

An overnight Carolinian from NEC to Charlotte (assuming we have sleepers to spare which we probably don't) will be tough. It's a little over 6 hours from WAS to Raleigh. Maybe it leaves both ends at midnight and arrives at the other city around 6:30am?

 

[jis]

I am sure that NCDOT will not run a train with sleepers even if it is overnight. And I am almost sure they won't run an overnight train either. The only possibility with slight timetable adjustment is to run the mid morning Charlotte departure to Savannah to return as the afternoon Raleigh departure leaving Savannah early in the morning. Anything else requires additional consists.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I am sure that NCDOT will not run a train with sleepers even if it is overnight. And I am almost sure they won't run an overnight train either. The only possibility with slight timetable adjustment is to run the mid morning Charlotte departure to Savannah to return as the afternoon Raleigh departure leaving Savannah early in the morning. Anything else requires additional consists.

How about Charlotte to Atlanta?

 

[jis]

Does not work with current timetables and consist allocations at all.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

How about Charlotte to Atlanta?

Does not work with current timetables and consist allocations at all.

Then how would Raleigh to Savannah work? Atlanta is a way bigger market than Savannah and closer to Charlotte and Greensboro. Plus, you'd get Raleigh to Atlanta which you don't have now. You can't tell me you will get more passengers going to Savannah than Atlanta.

 

[jis]

I am talking about what can be operationally done with none to minimal additional equipment and crew, which is all that will be realistically findable in the next three or so years. You are talking about something else. When I say something cannot be done it simply means it cannot be without significant new equipment. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Whether a place is bigger or smaller has no impact on how much additional equipment is required or not for adding one train.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Without new equipment, no new trains seem likely. The realistic options are extending a current train which should not require new equipment.

The one I proposed is an extension of a Piedmont train beyond Charlotte to Atlanta. The additional time between the cities on the Crescent is around 6 hours. So if they extend the 75 it would arrive into Atlanta slightly before 9pm. They could also extend the 73 to arrive in Atlanta around 4pm. Heading back to Carolina you can have the 76 leave Atlanta around 11am. The train time would be about 8 hours between Greensboro and Atlanta and about 9.5 hours between Raleigh and Atlanta. The Raleigh-Atlanta route would be new, the Atlanta route between Charlotte and Greensboro currently is served by the Crescent but the times into Carolina are in the middle of the night.

I think the Charlotte to Atlanta might help with the Crescent problem as well. So let's say Amtrak has five coach cars into Atlanta from the Crescent/NEC. You can send two of them south to continue on the Crescent and the other three could then be sent up north to Raleigh on the expanded Piedmont. If you want to use the Piedmont trains on the Crescent heading north, you would have to expand the 73 as the 75 would not get into Atlanta on time. So anyone from Raleigh who wants to go to Atlanta will have to get up early.

You proposed the other direction extending the Piedmont from Raleigh to Savannah. The additional time between the cities on the Silver Star is around 7 hours. You can extend the 74 south to arrive in Savannah around 10pm but the 75 would have to leave Savannah around 4:45am. If this route is implemented, Savannah to Charlotte and Greensboro becomes a possibility.

To me, the Atlanta route would serve a much higher population and the times would be more reasonable. If state funding is an issue, I would imagine Georgia would support an Atlanta train more than a Savannah train. If you say neither is realistic that is one thing. I don't see how Savannah would be realistic but Atlanta won't be (unless I'm missing something and I'm sure I am).

I still think a shift of 75 and 76 for a better connection in Raleigh with the Silver Star is something Amtrak should try to push NCDOT for.

 

[Anderson]

Just as a point of information, it is NCDOT that gets to decide the schedule of Piedmonts, not Amtrak by itself.

If NCDOT decides that connection to Florida is important they are the ones that can adjust the schedule of heir train. NCDOT at present is much more focused facing north towards the NEC than the south e.g. Atlanta or Florida. As you have pointed out, they could improve connections to Florida by some simple tweaks. I think their intention is to develop Raleigh as a hub of sorts going forward, but they are not there yet.

The fact that Georgia and South Carolina as a matter of political demagoguery seem to be unable to support any sort of passenger rail facility, which makes any extension towards Atlanta difficult to achieve, at least until the political climate changes in those states.

As far as possible routes to the southeast from Atlanta go, there are a few available, specifically at least one CSX and one NS trunk to Savannah or Jacksonville. I am not familiar with the state of those tracks.

At the moment is the fact that, Carolinian aside, NC only has two daily frequencies to work with. Adding Piedmonts 3 and 4 should help on that front.

IIRC, the latest NC Rail Plan has at least mentioned an NS-based CLT-WAS day train as a possibility...so I could see a situation where a train to Atlanta from there could enter the picture (especially if the net effect on NC's operations was positive by a wide margin).

 

[jis]

I would be very impressed if NC decides to extend a train to Atlanta without any contribution from Georgia and South Carolina. Such public service is rare. It could be justified by NC if there is sufficient additional traffic generated by people who want to get to Atlanta. Of course all this assumes that the sorry state of a terminal facility in Atlanta finally gets resolved. I am sure NC will not contribute a dime to that.

In terms of potential riders NC to Atlanta of course holds the best promise. Now only if the politicians can get their heads out of the dark place where it is currently collectively parked in SC and GA.

Atlanta to JAX whether via Savannah or not, would be another service that would be likely to succeed. However, it is entirely the bailiwick of Georgia, that one.

As for expanding service with currently available equipment, with no additional infrastructure work necessary and with slight changes to current time tables goes, the only feasible extension right now is Raleigh to Savannah daytime service. The rest requires one or more of (a) drastic modification of time tables (b) additional equipment © additional work on infrastructure.

If you add one more Piedmont consist, that can be used either for an additional round trip between Raleigh and Charlotte or for an extension from Charlotte to Atlanta, but not both. My guess is as good as yours as to how one additional consist will be used by NC.

If the hypothetical Washington - Charlotte daytime service via Lynchburg is scheduled to depart Washington very early in the morning and arrive back late in the evening then it will leave the potential open for it to be extended to Atlanta. It will require two additional consist beyond anything that NC currently runs, or plans to run with Piedmont 3 and 4. But again, it will require considerable amount of infrastructure work in Atlanta before such can happen.

 

[Anderson]

My presumption is that NC would only do that if there was a substantial return on investment. By the same token I could see VA doing a CLT-WAS (or CLT-NYP via NS) train on their own if (1) the expected profit margin is notable, (2) the capital investment required isn't overwhelming, (3) there are operational reasons to consider the option, and (4) doing so avoids getting into a tangled mess of splitting costs and revenue.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I would be very impressed if NC decides to extend a train to Atlanta without any contribution from Georgia and South Carolina. Such public service is rare. It could be justified by NC if there is sufficient additional traffic generated by people who want to get to Atlanta. Of course all this assumes that the sorry state of a terminal facility in Atlanta finally gets resolved. I am sure NC will not contribute a dime to that.

In terms of potential riders NC to Atlanta of course holds the best promise. Now only if the politicians can get their heads out of the dark place where it is currently collectively parked in SC and GA.

Atlanta to JAX whether via Savannah or not, would be another service that would be likely to succeed. However, it is entirely the bailiwick of Georgia, that one.

As for expanding service with currently available equipment, with no additional infrastructure work necessary and with slight changes to current time tables goes, the only feasible extension right now is Raleigh to Savannah daytime service. The rest requires one or more of (a) drastic modification of time tables (b) additional equipment © additional work on infrastructure.

If you add one more Piedmont consist, that can be used either for an additional round trip between Raleigh and Charlotte or for an extension from Charlotte to Atlanta, but not both. My guess is as good as yours as to how one additional consist will be used by NC.

If the hypothetical Washington - Charlotte daytime service via Lynchburg is scheduled to depart Washington very early in the morning and arrive back late in the evening then it will leave the potential open for it to be extended to Atlanta. It will require two additional consist beyond anything that NC currently runs, or plans to run with Piedmont 3 and 4. But again, it will require considerable amount of infrastructure work in Atlanta before such can happen.

I have no idea how the Savannah extension would work. In terms of the schedule, the only way you can start a Piedmont train in Savannah and still arrive in Raleigh to continue to Charlotte is to have it leave around 4:45am. Savannah has more trains than many other larger cities in this country including Atlanta. They get one of the 15 LD trains in the entire country already. They have three daily trains to New York and the East Coast. Do we need to just keep giving them more trains? Why should they keep getting special treatment? If Atlanta won't work as an extension to the Piedmont, why would Savannah? It takes one hour longer to extend the train in that direction and we are dealing with the same state.