New equipment for Amtrak

[Hanno]

I just read an article in Trains magazine by Don Phillips where he mentions the following, "It is a travesty that equipment was not ordered at least a year ago, and it will be interesting to learn, as time goes on, why none has been ordered yet."

Was money appropriated a year ago for new equipment? Is money available now?

I'm sure everyone is in agreement that there is a need for additonal equipment! Any thoughts on Mr. Phillips comments?

Thanks!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Amtrak is desperate for new equipment. If it hasn't been ordered, the money ain't there.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak just requested new equipment from Congress in like October or November as justification for giving Amtrak the money that the 5 year plan calls for.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Amtrak just requested new equipment from Congress in like October or November as justification for giving Amtrak the money that the 5 year plan calls for.

and i bet congress said get lost

 

[VT Hokie]

Amtrak shouldn't get money for any new equipment until they use what they currently have, imo. That includes newly rebuilt Turboliners, a large number of Amfleet coaches, and a whole fleet of relatively young P40's going to waste in Bear, DE.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Amtrak shouldn't get money for any new equipment until they use what they currently have, imo. That includes newly rebuilt Turboliners, a large number of Amfleet coaches, and a whole fleet of relatively young P40's going to waste in Bear, DE.

good point. give amtrak the money to repair the mothballed equipment.

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak shouldn't get money for any new equipment until they use what they currently have, imo. That includes newly rebuilt Turboliners, a large number of Amfleet coaches, and a whole fleet of relatively young P40's going to waste in Bear, DE.

The Turbos are dead, forever.

The request also included money for fixing up the mothballed Amfleet's, which aren't that many in relation to the total number of Amfleets that Amtrak owns.

And the P40's are in mothballs because Amtrak doesn't need them. They weren't sent out to pasture because they needed work, they went out to pasture because when Express Trak ended, Amtrak had a surplus of engines since they needed less engines per train. However all the P40's aren't in mothballs either, as 4 have been sold to NJT and 8 are leased to the State of CT.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Amtrak shouldn't get money for any new equipment until they use what they currently have, imo. That includes newly rebuilt Turboliners, a large number of Amfleet coaches, and a whole fleet of relatively young P40's going to waste in Bear, DE.

The Turbos are dead, forever.

The request also included money for fixing up the mothballed Amfleet's, which aren't that many in relation to the total number of Amfleets that Amtrak owns.

And the P40's are in mothballs because Amtrak doesn't need them. They weren't sent out to pasture because they needed work, they went out to pasture because when Express Trak ended, Amtrak had a surplus of engines since they needed less engines per train. However all the P40's aren't in mothballs either, as 4 have been sold to NJT and 8 are leased to the State of CT.

The 8 units at CDOT are now bought from Amtrak

Amtrak in its day to day operations has almost 20 diesels as active spare, plus the 30 or so remaining P40's in storage, so its not engines Amtrak needs, what they need is replacement for Amfleet, currently older than heritage fleet when Amtrak was created.

Amtrak will need more electrics soon.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Amtrak shouldn't get money for any new equipment until they use what they currently have, imo. That includes newly rebuilt Turboliners, a large number of Amfleet coaches, and a whole fleet of relatively young P40's going to waste in Bear, DE.

The Turbos are dead, forever.

The request also included money for fixing up the mothballed Amfleet's, which aren't that many in relation to the total number of Amfleets that Amtrak owns.

And the P40's are in mothballs because Amtrak doesn't need them. They weren't sent out to pasture because they needed work, they went out to pasture because when Express Trak ended, Amtrak had a surplus of engines since they needed less engines per train. However all the P40's aren't in mothballs either, as 4 have been sold to NJT and 8 are leased to the State of CT.

Not to mention the other needs for cars can't be satisfied with Amfleets. Baggage cars, some of the old Heritage cars, maybe a couple new Viewliners (or variant thereof).

Sometimes I look at a baggage car, or a Heritage car and wonder to myself "Hmm... I wonder why it isn't split right down the middle when the engineer opens the throttle."

 

[wayman]

Amtrak shouldn't get money for any new equipment until they use what they currently have, imo. That includes newly rebuilt Turboliners, a large number of Amfleet coaches, and a whole fleet of relatively young P40's going to waste in Bear, DE.

Alan and others have addressed this question more seriously, of course, but I thought I'd add: Much as I'd like to ride in a P40 on a long-distance train, they're not really set up to carry passengers and besides, it wouldn't be very fun unless it was the P40 in front

 

[MattW]

Forgive me, but what's so special about the P40? I thought it was just a 4,000 Hp version of the P42

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Forgive me, but what's so special about the P40? I thought it was just a 4,000 Hp version of the P42

Nothing special, they were just one model before the P-42 and were put into storage shortly after purchase without gaining much mileage, which amounts to a waste since most active P-42s are run to death with some reaching mileages in the millions.

 

[VT Hokie]

The Turbos are dead, forever.

They wouldn't be if Congress mandated that Amtrak use what it already paid for before asking for new toys. At the very least, the Turbo sets could be rebuilt into push-pull coaches.

 

[wayman]

The Turbos are dead, forever.

They wouldn't be if Congress mandated that Amtrak use what it already paid for before asking for new toys. At the very least, the Turbo sets could be rebuilt into push-pull coaches.

The turbos are dead, forever, because of legal issues. It has nothing to do with allocating money or resources to rebuild them. There are other threads giving extensive details of the turbo situation, or someone with more direct knowledge can recap it here. But the short of it is, don't even consider the turbos when thinking about "equipment Amtrak could make better use of".

 

[Sam Damon]

We should also keep in mind the buff strength regulations for passenger rail rolling stock.

 

[AlanB]

The Turbos are dead, forever.

They wouldn't be if Congress mandated that Amtrak use what it already paid for before asking for new toys. At the very least, the Turbo sets could be rebuilt into push-pull coaches.

Amtrak didn't pay for the Turbos, NY State did. Therefore Congress has no jurisdiction over the Turbos.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The Turbos are dead, forever.

They wouldn't be if Congress mandated that Amtrak use what it already paid for before asking for new toys. At the very least, the Turbo sets could be rebuilt into push-pull coaches.

Amtrak didn't pay for the Turbos, NY State did. Therefore Congress has no jurisdiction over the Turbos.

And I hardly think Amtrak treats any of their cars as "toys" if anything, Amtrak has demonstrated that they can make a car stretch out during its life... well beyond anything logical.

Weren't the turbos death traps? I hear about a couple fires...

 

[access bob]

The Turbos are dead, forever.

They wouldn't be if Congress mandated that Amtrak use what it already paid for before asking for new toys. At the very least, the Turbo sets could be rebuilt into push-pull coaches.

Amtrak didn't pay for the Turbos, NY State did. Therefore Congress has no jurisdiction over the Turbos.

And I hardly think Amtrak treats any of their cars as "toys" if anything, Amtrak has demonstrated that they can make a car stretch out during its life... well beyond anything logical.

Weren't the turbos death traps? I hear about a couple fires...

they are fuel hogs...

Bob

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The Turbos are dead, forever.

They wouldn't be if Congress mandated that Amtrak use what it already paid for before asking for new toys. At the very least, the Turbo sets could be rebuilt into push-pull coaches.

Amtrak didn't pay for the Turbos, NY State did. Therefore Congress has no jurisdiction over the Turbos.

And I hardly think Amtrak treats any of their cars as "toys" if anything, Amtrak has demonstrated that they can make a car stretch out during its life... well beyond anything logical.

Weren't the turbos death traps? I hear about a couple fires...

they are fuel hogs...

Bob

And thus more expensive to operate?

And aren't they growing ivy vines?

 

[VT Hokie]

Amtrak didn't pay for the Turbos, NY State did. Therefore Congress has no jurisdiction over the Turbos.

Then why does Amtrak retain possession of the completed sets in Delaware, and why is Amtrak the agency that's trying to sell them? You're right, New York did pay for most of the rebuild, so Amtrak should at least give 'em back to NYDOT!

As far as legal issues, wasn't the lawsuit was resolved a couple of years ago? The fact remains that three rebuilt high speed trainsets with almost zero miles on the odometer are going to waste in Delaware, along with a heck of a lot of other rolling stock. As much as I support passenger rail, I can't support my tax dollars going toward expensive new rolling stock when, knowing Amtrak's history of poor resource utilization, it could end up rotting away in some storage yard without even getting much use!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Amtrak didn't pay for the Turbos, NY State did. Therefore Congress has no jurisdiction over the Turbos.

Then why does Amtrak retain possession of the completed sets in Delaware, and why is Amtrak the agency that's trying to sell them? You're right, New York did pay for most of the rebuild, so Amtrak should at least give 'em back to NYDOT!

As far as legal issues, wasn't the lawsuit was resolved a couple of years ago? The fact remains that three rebuilt high speed trainsets with almost zero miles on the odometer are going to waste in Delaware, along with a heck of a lot of other rolling stock. As much as I support passenger rail, I can't support my tax dollars going toward expensive new rolling stock when, knowing Amtrak's history of poor resource utilization, it could end up rotting away in some storage yard without even getting much use!

The turbos were worthless. They're best used as scrap metal. They were sold to the public as a futuristic way to take the train, when in fact they were fuel guzzling fire hazards that couldn't even keep up with AEM-7's.

Fine, give them back to NYDOT, then scrap them. Its a business. In a business, not all ventures work-- there are failures, there are losses. I would say that Amtrak has provided NYDOT a great system, in addition to NEC service the Empire Service is a great service.

Amtrak has made those old Heritage coaches road worthy and it is amazing that they have. Their baggage cars are falling apart at the trucks. You can't turn a bunch of old Amfleets into baggage cars!

And as Alan pointed out, Amtrak has plans to refurb those Amfleets, they need money to do so.

How would you like to run a business that has been in the red for 30 some years? It would be different if they were making profit, but they aren't. If you want Amtrak, then your tax dollars are going to pay for it.

Its not like YOUR tax dollars disappear, they come back to you-- think, what percentage of your ticket price is paid by the government? That is your tax dollars coming back to you.

 

[VT Hokie]

The turbos were worthless. They're best used as scrap metal. They were sold to the public as a futuristic way to take the train, when in fact they were fuel guzzling fire hazards that couldn't even keep up with AEM-7's.

Did you ever ride aboard one? I rode aboard the RTL III, and it was nicer than the old Amfleets running on the Empire Corridor today. As far as keeping up with AEM-7's, well, being that the Empire Corridor lacks catenary I'd say it doesn't much matter! They could get up to 110 mph just fine, and ran at 125+ in test runs.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The turbos were worthless. They're best used as scrap metal. They were sold to the public as a futuristic way to take the train, when in fact they were fuel guzzling fire hazards that couldn't even keep up with AEM-7's.

Did you ever ride aboard one? I rode aboard the RTL III, and it was nicer than the old Amfleets running on the Empire Corridor today. As far as keeping up with AEM-7's, well, being that the Empire Corridor lacks catenary I'd say it doesn't much matter! They could get up to 110 mph just fine, and ran at 125+ in test runs.

In TEST runs on well kept up track. That is hardly a real-life scenario.

If this is the case, then why don't they run today? Why aren't they everywhere in Europe, or Canada? They were failures, on every level. They may provide a nicer ride, but at the cost of fuel, repair, and just general stupidity.

They were NOT the trains of the future. They were doomed to fail, and they did.

 

[VT Hokie]

When the Metroliners became too expensive to operate, they turned 'em into non-powered cab cars. They should turn the Turbos into push-pull sets.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

When the Metroliners became too expensive to operate, they turned 'em into non-powered cab cars. They should turn the Turbos into push-pull sets.

Why don't we just let you run the railroad then?

Anyway, you do not know what you're talking about. The turbliners belong to Amtrak and Amtrak is allowed to sell them.

The RTL-II sets were sent to Super Steel Schenectady in the summer of 2000 for rebuilding into the newest generation, the RTL-III. The trainsets were all renumbered in 2001 to prevent duplicate numbers with the newly-arriving P-42s and were painted in new Acela-style livery.[2] A prototype was tested on the night of February 15, 2003, reaching 125 mph.[3] Two of these trainsets were built and entered into revenue service in April 2003, and a third set was sent to Albany in September of the same year but was never entered into service.[4] As of September 22, 2004, all three RTL-III trainsets were in storage in Bear, Delaware (39°36′21.3119″N 75°42′0.0216″W) due to problems with the air conditioning system and possibly other systems.
Two rebuilt RTL III Turboliner trainsets sit at the Albany Diesel Shops during their brief return to service in 2003.

The original RTL-III program envisioned seven five-car trains, and Amtrak and New York State DOT attempted to renegotiate the configurations with the possibility of adding an additional coach to existing trainsets. In the summer of 2004, negotiations stopped, and the state of New York sued Amtrak over the alleged lack of support to bring 125 mph (201 km/h) train service back to the Empire State.

In April 2005, New York State reached a settlement with Super Steel to completely close the rehabilitation project for $5.5 million dollars, to stop work on the project, cover any remaining costs, and move four unfinished trains into storage at a nearby industrial park.[5][6] This money was spent in addition to the $64.8 million already spent on the project at that point, bringing the total project cost to $70.3 million with absolutely no outcome or service. On December 12, 2007, Amtrak settled New York State's lawsuit with a payment of $20 million, and both Amtrak and New York State agreed to commit $10 million each to implement track improvements in the Empire Corridor following the findings of the New York State Senate High-Speed Rail Task Force.[7][8]