New Lynchburg Regional Now Open For Booking

[Green Maned Lion]

When advocating for anything rail related, I must suggest you don't EVER mention the name "Hilltopper". It was a microcosm of all that was wrong with Amtrak in the late 70s, and it brings up just how ridiculously wrong Amtrak can go when it goes wrong.

I'm going to rise to the bait... could you perhaps type through the pain and explain what was wrong with it? Apart from a truly crazy schedule and apparently only running with an Amfleet coach and café car despite a 26 hour journey time...

An interesting and beautifully illustrated Cardinal/Hilltopper trip report from 1979: http://www.robertpence.com/md_baltimore_19...imore_1979.html

The Hilltopper was a beautiful route. It was also serving nobody but a few hick West Virginians. The train had two cars. Back in 1979, one thing Amtrak didn't have was an equipment shortage! It ran with two cars because the train rated two cars. It carried, at the very most, 100 passengers- and from what I read, it usually didn't actually need that coach. So it was carrying 40 passengers or so. Often less. I've heard stories of it carrying nobody but Harley Staggers.

Amtrak has several jobs. The primary one is to operate an efficient- in cost and operation - national rail network. It is supposed to best serve the communities that most demand rail service. The Government pays for them. It is in the National interest. Etc.

Service for a half dozen people, one of them a influential senator, is not something of great national importance. We have a name for trains that aren't of national importance- they are called 403(b) trains, their losses funded by the state or states, or organization, or gambling casinos, or personal eccentric rich people, that request their operation.

The Hilltopper was not a 403(b) train. It was a functionless waste of resources operated out of national money on the behalf of two men: Harley Staggers and Robert Byrd. Money and resources that could have gone to trains that, you know, might have actually had something resembling ridership. It was the train to nowhere. Catlettsburg? Amtrak was too shame faced to even call it that. "Tri-State Sta., Ky (at Catlettsburg)".

Look at Amtrak's system now. With the exceoptions of the Empire Service and Wolverines (which should be funded by New York and Indiana-Michigan, respectively), can you think of any trains that don't get decent ridership, don't serve anyplace important, don't serve multiple states? If you list all the trains that primarily serve one state, you find that they are being funded by said states. That is how it should be.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The Hilltopper and its related West Virginia cousins were "political" trains run for the benefit of influential congressmen and did more to harm Amtrak's reputation than just about anything else. The Cardinal is a successor to these trains and runs on a schedule that assures lousy train times for places like Indianapolis and Cincinnati in favor of much smaller towns in West Virginia. That's why is only runs three days a week with an abbreviated consist.

 

[AlanB]

Look at Amtrak's system now. With the exceoptions of the Empire Service and Wolverines (which should be funded by New York and Indiana-Michigan, respectively), can you think of any trains that don't get decent ridership, don't serve anyplace important, don't serve multiple states? If you list all the trains that primarily serve one state, you find that they are being funded by said states. That is how it should be.

While I don't totally disagree with you here, you do need to be a bit careful with your very sweeping guidelines. First, both the Empire Service and the Wolverines do not fall into the "low ridership" catagory. I still wouldn't argue that the respective states should at least be helping to bear the costs, if not absorbing all the costs.

Second, there are state funded trains that do cross multiple state lines and technically shouldn't be state funded.

 

[AlanB]

The Hilltopper and its related West Virginia cousins were "political" trains run for the benefit of influential congressmen and did more to harm Amtrak's reputation than just about anything else. The Cardinal is a successor to these trains and runs on a schedule that assures lousy train times for places like Indianapolis and Cincinnati in favor of much smaller towns in West Virginia. That's why is only runs three days a week with an abbreviated consist.

Those poor calling times aren't just because someone with influence wanted better calling times in WV. Every train Amtrak runs, including the Cardinal, is influenced by having decent calling times for the big end point cities. Getting better calling times in Cinci and Indy would mean missing connections in Chicago and bad calling times for NY and DC. And changing the Cardinal to run through to NY did have a big improvement on ridership numbers over when it terminated in DC.

If one wanted to blow off possible connections in Chicago, then perhaps times in Cincy and Indy could be improved, but otherwise not.

Frankly what should happen is to get a couple of day trains that run 7 days a week between Chicago and Cincy, such that departures happen from both end point cities each morning and evening to serve that market.

Of course one of the bigger reasons that this train still runs in the first place is that it serves as a way to get cars and engines to/from Beech Grove.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Hilltopper and its related West Virginia cousins were "political" trains run for the benefit of influential congressmen and did more to harm Amtrak's reputation than just about anything else. The Cardinal is a successor to these trains and runs on a schedule that assures lousy train times for places like Indianapolis and Cincinnati in favor of much smaller towns in West Virginia. That's why is only runs three days a week with an abbreviated consist.

Those poor calling times aren't just because someone with influence wanted better calling times in WV. Every train Amtrak runs, including the Cardinal, is influenced by having decent calling times for the big end point cities. Getting better calling times in Cinci and Indy would mean missing connections in Chicago and bad calling times for NY and DC. And changing the Cardinal to run through to NY did have a big improvement on ridership numbers over when it terminated in DC.

If one wanted to blow off possible connections in Chicago, then perhaps times in Cincy and Indy could be improved, but otherwise not.

Frankly what should happen is to get a couple of day trains that run 7 days a week between Chicago and Cincy, such that departures happen from both end point cities each morning and evening to serve that market.

Of course one of the bigger reasons that this train still runs in the first place is that it serves as a way to get cars and engines to/from Beech Grove.

Some good points re the Cardinal Alan but IMHO they could improve the times on the whole route(as well as the equipment of course! :lol: )

Lots of times this train leaves CHI before the Western trains arrive(when they are late),resulting in bustitution for pax or nights in Amtrak

hostels-er-hotels! Getting to IND and Cinncinnatti in the middle of the night is not good management,and this train doesnt get to WAS

till almost 6PM and NYP @9:45PM on the East bound leg,this is not convient for anyone no?The CL leaves an hour later from CHI and beats it to WAS by 5 hrs! Also IMHO improved timetable,more and improved consist and the better scenery

would make this one of the best ridden trains from the midwest to the NE!(The CL and LSL are OK but nothing to

write home about for such an important route from our major NE cities to CHI!!!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I didn't mean to imply that the Wolverine or Empire Service were low ridership. Just that they serve a primary state who honestly should be paying a good portion of their cost.

On the other hand, I disagree with you that any of the state supported trains shouldn't be. The Carolinian should be. The Cascades should be. The Hiawatha danged well should be. The Pennsylvanian should be. The Heartland Flyer should be- if they extend it to Newton, KCY, or CHI we can talk. Obviously, California service should be. The Ethan Allen Express should be- although I'd argue that NYRA should be contributing something for its service to Saratoga in season.

The Vermonter? I don't know how they are charged. If they are charged north of NHV or SPG, I'd say that's fair. I don't think its fair to charge them below that. I mean, come on. The train goes to ST. ALBANS. Who wants to go to St. Albans besides skiers?

I have always felt that regional and state projects should be state or regionally funded, or we should give up the farce of a seperate state budget and such altogether. But we're getting into politics, so I'll stop right there.

 

[jis]

I have always felt that regional and state projects should be state or regionally funded, or we should give up the farce of a seperate state budget and such altogether. But we're getting into politics, so I'll stop right there.

So are you then saying that Amtrak should get out of the business of running the Northeast Regionals and just run the LD trains? Sounds like what the previous adminsitration was advocating too, i.e. separating out the NEC from the Amtrak system.

 

[AlanB]

Some good points re the Cardinal Alan but IMHO they could improve the times on the whole route(as well as the equipment of course! :lol: )Lots of times this train leaves CHI before the Western trains arrive(when they are late),resulting in bustitution for pax or nights in Amtrak

hostels-er-hotels! Getting to IND and Cinncinnatti in the middle of the night is not good management,and this train doesnt get to WAS

till almost 6PM and NYP @9:45PM on the East bound leg,this is not convient for anyone no?The CL leaves an hour later from CHI and beats it to WAS by 5 hrs! Also IMHO improved timetable,more and improved consist and the better scenery

would make this one of the best ridden trains from the midwest to the NE!(The CL and LSL are OK but nothing to

write home about for such an important route from our major NE cities to CHI!!!

I don't think that anyone would argue on the equipment side, or that this train should be run daily. Both would improve ridership more than the extension to NYP did a few years back.

As for times though, again it's not easy. Yes, you're right, many times western trains fail to make the connection in Chicago. So let's just say that Amtrak moves the departure back by 1 hour to near the Capitol's time. Well now that 9:45 PM arrival into NYP that you were complaining about just became 10:45 PM, an even later arrival and more unatractive than the current time.

The departure time from NYP IMHO is also unattractive @ 6:45 AM. But move it later and we risk breaking connections in Chicago to the westbound trains, especially if the Cardinal runs late.

Now, if track speeds could be improved a bit on the Cincy to CHI corridor, and if Amtrak could remove the padding in the schedule, then we could improve both those Chicago times and the NY times. But that still leaves us nowhere on calling times for Cincy and Indy.

By the way, one of the reasons that the Cardinal's run is longer is simply thanks to the fact that it travels many more miles on a far less direct routing than the Capitol. Take out the NEC portion and the Cardinal covers 921 miles between Chicago and DC vs. the 780 covered by the Capitol. And technically the Capitol's current mileage listed in the TT is wrong by about 20 miles or so. It's actually less.

 

[AlanB]

On the other hand, I disagree with you that any of the state supported trains shouldn't be. The Carolinian should be. The Cascades should be. The Hiawatha danged well should be. The Pennsylvanian should be. The Heartland Flyer should be- if they extend it to Newton, KCY, or CHI we can talk. Obviously, California service should be. The Ethan Allen Express should be- although I'd argue that NYRA should be contributing something for its service to Saratoga in season.

I disagree on the Carolinian, since it serves far too many states and it's ridership is at levels that exceed other Amtrak operated runs. The Cascades is unique in its own right, since it is funded by the two states that it serves. And even Vancouver, BC has done things to promote their end of the line. However, at this point in time the Cascades has grown enough that it really should be considered for inclusion in the National network and taken away from the states.

The Hearland Flyer is also like the Cascades, it's funded by the two states that it operates in. But it IMHO hasn't reached a status worthy of being considered part of the National network. An extension northbound might well change that, and of course it puts more states in the mix.

Ethan should be funded by NY and VT.

Cali serves Cali.

The Vermonter? I don't know how they are charged. If they are charged north of NHV or SPG, I'd say that's fair. I don't think its fair to charge them below that. I mean, come on. The train goes to ST. ALBANS. Who wants to go to St. Albans besides skiers?

AFAIK Vermont pays only for SPG north. Of course it's possible that Amtrak slips in extra costs that don't really occur north of SPG. California has gotten mad at Amtrak more than once for that, and in fact now has it's own special toll free number for the Capitol corridor because they felt that Amtrak was overcharging them for the call center.

 

[PRR 60]

...On the other hand, I disagree with you that any of the state supported trains shouldn't be. The Carolinian should be. The Cascades should be. The Hiawatha danged well should be. The Pennsylvanian should be. The Heartland Flyer should be- if they extend it to Newton, KCY, or CHI we can talk. Obviously, California service should be. The Ethan Allen Express should be- although I'd argue that NYRA should be contributing something for its service to Saratoga in season.

The Pennsylvanian is not a state-supported train. The Keystone Corridor is. The Pennsylvanian is 100% Amtrak funded.

 

[jis]

...On the other hand, I disagree with you that any of the state supported trains shouldn't be. The Carolinian should be. The Cascades should be. The Hiawatha danged well should be. The Pennsylvanian should be. The Heartland Flyer should be- if they extend it to Newton, KCY, or CHI we can talk. Obviously, California service should be. The Ethan Allen Express should be- although I'd argue that NYRA should be contributing something for its service to Saratoga in season.

The Pennsylvanian is not a state-supported train. The Keystone Corridor is. The Pennsylvanian is 100% Amtrak funded.

And it has been that way more or less from day 1 of Amtrak.

 

[Rafi]

I should note that there's a typo in my initial post. 156 only runs as far north as NYP, not SPG.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Some good points re the Cardinal Alan but IMHO they could improve the times on the whole route(as well as the equipment of course! :lol: )Lots of times this train leaves CHI before the Western trains arrive(when they are late),resulting in bustitution for pax or nights in Amtrak

hostels-er-hotels! Getting to IND and Cinncinnatti in the middle of the night is not good management,and this train doesnt get to WAS

till almost 6PM and NYP @9:45PM on the East bound leg,this is not convient for anyone no?The CL leaves an hour later from CHI and beats it to WAS by 5 hrs! Also IMHO improved timetable,more and improved consist and the better scenery

would make this one of the best ridden trains from the midwest to the NE!(The CL and LSL are OK but nothing to

write home about for such an important route from our major NE cities to CHI!!!

I don't think that anyone would argue on the equipment side, or that this train should be run daily. Both would improve ridership more than the extension to NYP did a few years back.

As for times though, again it's not easy. Yes, you're right, many times western trains fail to make the connection in Chicago. So let's just say that Amtrak moves the departure back by 1 hour to near the Capitol's time. Well now that 9:45 PM arrival into NYP that you were complaining about just became 10:45 PM, an even later arrival and more unatractive than the current time.

The departure time from NYP IMHO is also unattractive @ 6:45 AM. But move it later and we risk breaking connections in Chicago to the westbound trains, especially if the Cardinal runs late.

Now, if track speeds could be improved a bit on the Cincy to CHI corridor, and if Amtrak could remove the padding in the schedule, then we could improve both those Chicago times and the NY times. But that still leaves us nowhere on calling times for Cincy and Indy.

By the way, one of the reasons that the Cardinal's run is longer is simply thanks to the fact that it travels many more miles on a far less direct routing than the Capitol. Take out the NEC portion and the Cardinal covers 921 miles between Chicago and DC vs. the 780 covered by the Capitol. And technically the Capitol's current mileage listed in the TT is wrong by about 20 miles or so. It's actually less.

As usual you are correct Alan,as we always say "in a perfect world.."Guess Ill just have to ride the Cardinal as is and hope they get a real diner and adequate sleepers someday? It makes sense about stub trains for Cinn,what a shame that such

a grand station sits empty in the middle of the night when the Cardinal is there!(and the OTP/scheduling thing can be looked

@ from the Western end also,too many trains arrive too close together from the west IMHO!)

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I have always felt that regional and state projects should be state or regionally funded, or we should give up the farce of a seperate state budget and such altogether. But we're getting into politics, so I'll stop right there.

So are you then saying that Amtrak should get out of the business of running the Northeast Regionals and just run the LD trains? Sounds like what the previous adminsitration was advocating too, i.e. separating out the NEC from the Amtrak system.

The Regionals can call themselves Regional if they want to. They can call themselves "New Mexico Commuter Train" if they want to. Naming does not make it so. I don't think they are particularly regional in nature. The Capitol Limited isn't regional, yet it covers a similar amount of distance- a mere 120 miles less.

...On the other hand, I disagree with you that any of the state supported trains shouldn't be. The Carolinian should be. The Cascades should be. The Hiawatha danged well should be. The Pennsylvanian should be. The Heartland Flyer should be- if they extend it to Newton, KCY, or CHI we can talk. Obviously, California service should be. The Ethan Allen Express should be- although I'd argue that NYRA should be contributing something for its service to Saratoga in season.

The Pennsylvanian is not a state-supported train. The Keystone Corridor is. The Pennsylvanian is 100% Amtrak funded.

According to the current timetable, it is. Even if it isn't, it should be.

The Cascades should not be nationally funded. Here's the problem with national funding:

The powerful states get to decide the fate of nationally funded trains, while the weak states have a harder time. If Washington State and Oregon pay to run the Cascades, the Cascades run. It is the local people there that decide if they should exist. Not the neanderthals in, say, Arizona who wouldn't know a decent transit system if they were ran over by one.

 

[jis]

I have always felt that regional and state projects should be state or regionally funded, or we should give up the farce of a seperate state budget and such altogether. But we're getting into politics, so I'll stop right there.

So are you then saying that Amtrak should get out of the business of running the Northeast Regionals and just run the LD trains? Sounds like what the previous administration was advocating too, i.e. separating out the NEC from the Amtrak system.

The Regionals can call themselves Regional if they want to. They can call themselves "New Mexico Commuter Train" if they want to. Naming does not make it so. I don't think they are particularly regional in nature. The Capitol Limited isn't regional, yet it covers a similar amount of distance- a mere 120 miles less.

I was just trying to get some idea of what would the definition of "regional" in your use of the term cover. Would it be something that is fully in one state? Or perhaps covering three states? I don;t know. The definition at present is somewhat fuzzy. I was just trying to get a better handle on the concept. That's all.

Frankly I don't see what "New Mexico Commuter Train" or Capitol Limited or what distance it travels has to do with any of this. How many states it crosses is probably more relevant. But then again it is once a day train. I would imagine that a regional operation would be multiple trains per day covering a specific region perhaps encompassing multiple interconnected route. In that sense the NEC spine plus Keystone and Empire Corridors do constitute a nice compact regional system and conceivably could be run by a regional compact consisting of the states it covers, no?

 

[PRR 60]

...On the other hand, I disagree with you that any of the state supported trains shouldn't be. The Carolinian should be. The Cascades should be. The Hiawatha danged well should be. The Pennsylvanian should be. The Heartland Flyer should be- if they extend it to Newton, KCY, or CHI we can talk. Obviously, California service should be. The Ethan Allen Express should be- although I'd argue that NYRA should be contributing something for its service to Saratoga in season.

The Pennsylvanian is not a state-supported train. The Keystone Corridor is. The Pennsylvanian is 100% Amtrak funded.

According to the current timetable, it is. Even if it isn't, it should be.

A listing of the state supported and non-state supported corridor trains is here:

http://www.amtrak.com/pdf/CorridorTrains.pdf

The confusion comes from the listing of the Pennsylvanian on the Keystone Service timetable. The 'state funded" note applies to the Keystones, not the Pennsylvanian.

The Amtrak funding of the Pennsylvanian comes from the original 1971 turnover of Penn Central service to Amtrak. Amtrak kept the PC's cross-Pennsylvania service in the form of the Broadway Limited. In the 1980's, a second cross-state train was added on a more convenient schedule. That train was the Pennsylvanian. It was state funded. When the Broadway went away, Amtrak maintained cross-state service with the Pennsylvanian, now an Amtrak-funded service.

A similar situation exists in California with the Pacific Surfliner. In 1971, Amtrak inherited and retained three LA to San Diego trains from the AT&SF. To this day the Pacific Surfliner funding formula is worked so that Amtrak contributes the funding equal to the cost of three daily LAX-SAN round trips. California funds the balance of the Surfliner cost.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I was just trying to get some idea of what would the definition of "regional" in your use of the term cover. Would it be something that is fully in one state? Or perhaps covering three states? I don;t know. The definition at present is somewhat fuzzy. I was just trying to get a better handle on the concept. That's all.
Frankly I don't see what "New Mexico Commuter Train" or Capitol Limited or what distance it travels has to do with any of this. How many states it crosses is probably more relevant. But then again it is once a day train. I would imagine that a regional operation would be multiple trains per day covering a specific region perhaps encompassing multiple interconnected route. In that sense the NEC spine plus Keystone and Empire Corridors do constitute a nice compact regional system and conceivably could be run by a regional compact consisting of the states it covers, no?

I'm merely saying that just because Amtrak feels it should be called "Regional" does not mean it is, in fact, regional. One of the first qualification points I'd make for a regional system is an overall route length of less than 500 miles- which the Northeast Regional is not.

In addition, a regional train must be economically beneficial primarily to region it passes through. That is not the case with the Regionals. While Seattle, or Detroit, or St. Louis are regional hubs, as admittedly Boston, Richmond, and to some extent Philadelphia are, New York and Washington are not regional hubs. They are National hubs- New York could qualify as the international hub of the continent, if not the entire world. The service is economically beneficial to the entire country, even if it only serves the BosWasRich megalopolis.

The country would not be handicapped significantly if the Wolverine disappeared. Only the region it serves- Michigan - would be. It is therefore a regional train.

 

[battalion51]

The issue that I have is that we (as a society) are all too focused on a single mode of transportation as the ultimate solution. The honest truth is you have to have synergy amongst all modes for the system to truly work. From rail, to car, to bus, to plane, to ship we need harmony amongst all these options. Because when a society becomes so reliant on one item, if that item goes away it can cripple society. Look at the fallout after the shutdowns of 9|11. When the skies were shut down America shut down. Any courier service (USPS, UPS, FedEx, DHL) essentially grinded to a hault, as did the movement of people. Amtrak didn't have the capacity to make a dent in the overflow from the airlines. We all have to promote synergy. We need planes. Otherwise how would we quickly cross oceans or the continents?

 

[Bob Dylan]

I was just trying to get some idea of what would the definition of "regional" in your use of the term cover. Would it be something that is fully in one state? Or perhaps covering three states? I don;t know. The definition at present is somewhat fuzzy. I was just trying to get a better handle on the concept. That's all.
Frankly I don't see what "New Mexico Commuter Train" or Capitol Limited or what distance it travels has to do with any of this. How many states it crosses is probably more relevant. But then again it is once a day train. I would imagine that a regional operation would be multiple trains per day covering a specific region perhaps encompassing multiple interconnected route. In that sense the NEC spine plus Keystone and Empire Corridors do constitute a nice compact regional system and conceivably could be run by a regional compact consisting of the states it covers, no?

I'm merely saying that just because Amtrak feels it should be called "Regional" does not mean it is, in fact, regional. One of the first qualification points I'd make for a regional system is an overall route length of less than 500 miles- which the Northeast Regional is not.

In addition, a regional train must be economically beneficial primarily to region it passes through. That is not the case with the Regionals. While Seattle, or Detroit, or St. Louis are regional hubs, as admittedly Boston, Richmond, and to some extent Philadelphia are, New York and Washington are not regional hubs. They are National hubs- New York could qualify as the international hub of the continent, if not the entire world. The service is economically beneficial to the entire country, even if it only serves the BosWasRich megalopolis.

The country would not be handicapped significantly if the Wolverine disappeared. Only the region it serves- Michigan - would be. It is therefore a regional train.

Think I might include Chicago on that list,perhaps even more important than NYC for the USA,it truely is the hub!!!