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It is the cost of a non-revenue car such as the diner and lounge that is expensive. That's especially so if just compensation is paid to the host railroad for use of their tracks. By the way, meals should not be complementary as with First Class. Today's clientele are accustomed to fast food and eating out of their laps in their autos and trucks. If anything, the "forced" sit-down meals on the relatively fancy dining car (which I think is the gem and the jewel of passenger train service) is somewhat wasted on today's culture. Indeed, the usual approach to modern passenger trains is that of the 1950's. That is what is unusable and unaffordable.
For dietary or any other reason, why should us first class passengers be forced to eat fast food? And as for "complementary meals" why should we be denied regualar meals? After all we ARE paying for our meals; it's included in the price of the room.

Because the term "complementary" is used in some instances doesn't mean it's free. With Amtrak it's part of the price one pays for one's room, just as "completmentary" buses or trams are sometimes provided at amusement parks between the parking lot and the entrance. Rather than collect the fees upon boarding, the cost of the transport is indirectly paid through the price of the admission ticket.

The same can also be said for when an auto rental agency or a hotel provides "complementary" airport or train station pickup or dropoff service. They too say complementary, but guess who's is really paying? There are other examples that could also be included but I think I've provided enough to get the picture!

EDIT: I forgot to mention the fact that we first class passengers pay for our "Complementary" meals regardless of weither we eat our meals or not. Coach passengers pay a la carte! So in some cases first class passengers are paying more for meals than they're actually receiving. (Disclaimer: This excludes me. I get and enjoy each and every meal I paid for) :p
 
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I agree completely that dining service is absolutely essential for rail passenger service, especially for overnight trips. However, if dining cars and lounges are truly drains on revenue-- and, being non-revenue, they must by definition be a drain on revenue from the other cars, hence a drain on the entire operation-- then those cars need to be eliminated. That does not at all mean eliminate dining service (in whatever form) from the overall operation.

My contention is that what is offered on lounge cars or even in the diner-lounges (carry-out service, enjoyed privately at one's seat-- airline or automotive style, apparently so enamored and favored by so many today) can be, perhaps even more so, provided in cafe compartments on sleepers as I've mentioned. This may destroy the romantic images of the diner that I too would like to preserve. But, the good of the overall rail passenger service is more important than arguably 1950's notions of attempted genteel dining service-- as lovable as that is. Meals to order, such as is somewhat provided on the diner-lounges, could also be served in roomettes or rooms if requested as a perk of sleeping car class. That, in effect, preserves much of the "gentility" of railroad dining service.

No, carry-out food does not have to be "slop" "thrown" at passengers (that could even be done in a diner!). If it is, no one, including I would ride that train. It is completely illogical to assume that frugal has to mean sloppy any more than it does in many fine and sufficient but frugal and scaled down fast food establishments. Some of the best fare is actually to be found in many a low-budget eatery, if done right and with pride by the operators thereof. Quality for the minimum (not to mean insufficient wages and benefits to employees) is the principle for success in future rail passenger service (or any other successful and truly private-enterprise business).

In reference to "new routes", I would suggest a new alternating Royal Palm continuation of the Fast Flying Virginian and Ponce de Leon extension of the HOOSIER STATE through Cincinnati as alternatives to a new Southwind and Floridian. As much as it is very desirable to have Louisville, Bowling Green, and Nashville on line with service, the old CNO&TP line might be more compatible with passenger service under current conditions than the old NC&St.L.
 
I agree completely that dining service is absolutely essential for rail passenger service, especially for overnight trips. However, if dining cars and lounges are truly drains on revenue-- and, being non-revenue, they must by definition be a drain on revenue from the other cars, hence a drain on the entire operation-- then those cars need to be eliminated. That does not at all mean eliminate dining service (in whatever form) from the overall operation.
My contention is that what is offered on lounge cars or even in the diner-lounges (carry-out service, enjoyed privately at one's seat-- airline or automotive style, apparently so enamored and favored by so many today) can be, perhaps even more so, provided in cafe compartments on sleepers as I've mentioned. This may destroy the romantic images of the diner that I too would like to preserve. But, the good of the overall rail passenger service is more important than arguably 1950's notions of attempted genteel dining service-- as lovable as that is. Meals to order, such as is somewhat provided on the diner-lounges, could also be served in roomettes or rooms if requested as a perk of sleeping car class. That, in effect, preserves much of the "gentility" of railroad dining service.

No, carry-out food does not have to be "slop" "thrown" at passengers (that could even be done in a diner!). If it is, no one, including I would ride that train. It is completely illogical to assume that frugal has to mean sloppy any more than it does in many fine and sufficient but frugal and scaled down fast food establishments. Some of the best fare is actually to be found in many a low-budget eatery, if done right and with pride by the operators thereof. Quality for the minimum (not to mean insufficient wages and benefits to employees) is the principle for success in future rail passenger service (or any other successful and truly private-enterprise business).

In reference to "new routes", I would suggest a new alternating Royal Palm continuation of the Fast Flying Virginian and Ponce de Leon extension of the HOOSIER STATE through Cincinnati as alternatives to a new Southwind and Floridian. As much as it is very desirable to have Louisville, Bowling Green, and Nashville on line with service, the old CNO&TP line might be more compatible with passenger service under current conditions than the old NC&St.L.
Thanks for the clearification! That leaves me with only a few issues that aren't even worth mentioning!
 
we first class passengers pay for our "Complementary" meals regardless of weither we eat our meals or not. Coach passengers pay a la carte! So in some cases first class passengers are paying more for meals than they're actually receiving. (Disclaimer: This excludes me. I get and enjoy each and every meal I paid for) :p
I agree. If I travel coach (and have to pay for my meals), I usually just have breakfast and dinner (if that) in the diner - and usually without the "extras" like desert. But if I'm in a sleeper and the meals are "complementary", I have all 3 meals with the "extras"!
 
To pick some rough guesses, if Amtrak has 200 sleeping cars, if the average sleeping car has 15 compartments, and if Amtrak could do something that would make the average accomodation charge people were willing to pay go up by $90, that would provide almost $100 million a year in revenue.

It wouldn't surprise me if any savings in the food service area will not change Amtrak's overall operating losses given what such savings are likely to do to the demand for sleeping accomodations.

I wouldn't be surprised if I could rent a car and pay for the car and the fuel and a stationary hotel room for roughly what a roomette costs going between Boston and Chicago. That wouldn't help this fuel crisis that politicians supposedly want to do something about, and it would take me longer to travel by highway, but if the Amtrak experience is made worse by enough, I would certainly consider driving. I've certainly driven from Boston to Indiana in the past when I didn't want to fly and hadn't figured out how sleeping accomodations work on Amtrak.
 
I agree completely that dining service is absolutely essential for rail passenger service, especially for overnight trips. However, if dining cars and lounges are truly drains on revenue-- and, being non-revenue, they must by definition be a drain on revenue from the other cars, hence a drain on the entire operation-- then those cars need to be eliminated. That does not at all mean eliminate dining service (in whatever form) from the overall operation.
But dining and cafe cars are revenue producing cars. They just don't produce enough revenue to cover all of their costs, just like coach cars don't fully cover their costs. You wouldn't consider a coach a non-revenue car would you? It does generate revenue, just not enough to cover the full expense of running said car. And since coach service looses about $367 Million per year, if one is trying to cut the budget deficit, then clearly it would be better to cut the larger number first, not the smaller $100 M number.

And again, I've not seen any numbers that tell me where things stand since the implimentation of SDS and other changes in food service. I know that there has been progress towards reducing that $100 M number, but I've no idea just how well things have progressed. However it has progressed far enough to stay in compliance with what Congress ordered.
 
My contention is that what is offered on lounge cars or even in the diner-lounges (carry-out service, enjoyed privately at one's seat-- airline or automotive style, apparently so enamored and favored by so many today) can be, perhaps even more so, provided in cafe compartments on sleepers as I've mentioned. This may destroy the romantic images of the diner that I too would like to preserve. But, the good of the overall rail passenger service is more important than arguably 1950's notions of attempted genteel dining service-- as lovable as that is. Meals to order, such as is somewhat provided on the diner-lounges, could also be served in roomettes or rooms if requested as a perk of sleeping car class. That, in effect, preserves much of the "gentility" of railroad dining service.
No, carry-out food does not have to be "slop" "thrown" at passengers (that could even be done in a diner!). If it is, no one, including I would ride that train. It is completely illogical to assume that frugal has to mean sloppy any more than it does in many fine and sufficient but frugal and scaled down fast food establishments. Some of the best fare is actually to be found in many a low-budget eatery, if done right and with pride by the operators thereof. Quality for the minimum (not to mean insufficient wages and benefits to employees) is the principle for success in future rail passenger service (or any other successful and truly private-enterprise business).

I think there are some concepts, which do cause me concern.

There is "fast food", which to most people is a minimal (2 oz) hamburger or processed chicken parts. Sides are nothing much more than french fries. That is not what I consider to be a first class dinning experience.

There is "carry-out", which brings visions of chinese food or pizza. That is not what I consider to be a first class dinning experience.

There are "low-budget eateries", which to me would include the old fashion road-side diner, which brings visions of the blue-plate special, chilly, strong coffee, and pies. That is not what I consider to be a first class dinning experience.

All three of those, and probably some more examples, are simply places to ward off hunger.

What Alan has mentioned has gotten me to thinking a bit more. The financial problems of Amtrak's food service, has more to do with employee expenses and equipment expenses. However, since Amtrak can't significantly reduced those expenses (like pay waitstaff the minimum wage of $2.60 per hour), Amtrak is instead going after other aspects of their food service. Here, one can find some rather dramatic reductions in the "dining experience" that have resulted in very little reduction in costs.

Also as Alan has pointed out, more money is lost in short runs, and those are the runs with just a snack bar. So, I take that to be an example of "minimal food" that is eaten at one's seat, which does not by itself automatically yield low overall operating costs.

So, throwing "slop" at the passengers, would probably result in less than a 10% reduction in overall operating cost.

But with Congress pressuring Amtrak for that 10%, I fear it will happen. :eek:

BTW, does anyone know how Acela's first class food service does financially?
 
For dietary or any other reason, why should us first class passengers be forced to eat fast food? And as for "complementary meals" why should we be denied regualar meals? After all we ARE paying for our meals; it's included in the price of the room.
Maybe they shouldn't be included in the price of the room. It's always seemed kind of odd to me that all meals and desserts are included in a sleeper car rate. What does one have to do with the other? I'd rather they lower the sleeper car rates and make meals a la carte for everyone. Are they worried they wouldn't fill the diner car if they do that? If so, that should probably be a good clue that prices are too high and/or not enough people are interested in the service anymore.
 
Maybe they shouldn't be included in the price of the room. It's always seemed kind of odd to me that all meals and desserts are included in a sleeper car rate. What does one have to do with the other? I'd rather they lower the sleeper car rates and make meals a la carte for everyone. Are they worried they wouldn't fill the diner car if they do that? If so, that should probably be a good clue that prices are too high and/or not enough people are interested in the service anymore.
Should cruise ships stopped including meals too? I kind-of always thought of Amtrak LD sleepers more like a land cruise.

And there are certainly parallels. Both are multi-day transportation, where passengers are basically "captives". Food is included, and passengers can eat or not.

If Amtrak dropped sleeper meals, imagine being on a LD train, that is 2 or 3 days, and you have to pay $50 for a hamburger? Of course, passengers will be strictly forbidden for carrying any of their own food on-board. I wonder if Amtrak could then, finally, turn a profit? :D

Plus, if that LD train is running late (that never happens!), Amtrak gets to sell passengers even more $50 hamburgers.
 
The correct way for this to all have happen, is that Congress should own, maintain, and build new track. That's for both freight and passenger.
That would make trains on par with all other methods of transportation, where taxes are used for all the infrastructure. Airlines own their planes, not the airports. Truckers own their trucks, and not the roads (though they drive like they own the roads. :rolleyes: ).
I agree. That would truly put rail at a pretty even position with roads. To take it a step farther, if the tracks & stations were government owned, then there could be private operators of vehicles on that track, for both freight and rail. The equivalent of the FAA would control the dispatching. Passenger rail might become profitable then and we'd see private operators. Amtrak may still be needed to have a uniform reservation system, but maybe not.

This is nothing more than an appeal for European style socialism which I would oppose. We have the best and most efficient freight rail system in the world and the only one that makes money. No passenger rail system makes money. If the feds want to enhance certain routes and pay what it costs to run premium service level trains then the privately owned railroads would be glad to accomodate them and would run the trains much better and more efficiently than any quasi govt agency could. Right now Amtrak does not pay for more than just mediocre accomodation service, but expects premium service. Perhaps the way to go for the future is to turn operation of passenger trains outside the NE corridor over to the privately owned railroads and pay them to run them. Amtrak has been in existance for over 37 years now and it is still a mess. If you want to make passenger trains competitive financially, then start charging tolls for interstate highway use, raise the gasoline tax and make the airlines pay for their airports, air traffic controllers and other perks the feds provide for free. Take the NE corridor and make it stand alone as a separate operation. In case you haven't noticed the Europeans are abandoning government operated passenger trains just as fast as they can. They still maintain the infrastructure(but their infrastructure is mostly passenger oriented) but outsource the operation of trains. They also charge a lot more per mile than any US trains charge and their gasoline taxes are in the $4-5 per gallon range vs our pennies a gallon. In other words there is a huge huge difference between Europe and the US when it comes to how railroads are financed and operated. If passenger trains are so necessary and so efficient and convenient then the free market will take over and provide the service.
But there is one thing that I point out to you John,

At the end of the 25 year original contract with the private railroads in 1996, Amtrak had to renegotiate all of it's contracts with said railroads. After some drawn out negotiations, even UP signed an accord with Amtrak. How come they didn't ask for more money then? And, how come they didn't insist on a graduated increase per year? Seems very unbusinesslike if they didn't!

It's quite possible they all did/or some did, but methinks the railroads bear some responsibility for running these trains even if they "lowballed" themselves. After all, a contract is a contract! ;)
 
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But there is one thing that I point out to you John,
At the end of the 25 year original contract with the private railroads in 1996, Amtrak had to renegotiate all of it's contracts with said railroads. After some drawn out negotiations, even UP signed an accord with Amtrak. How come they didn't ask for more money then? And, how come they didn't insist on a graduated increase per year? Seems very unbusinesslike if they didn't!

It's quite possible they all did/or some did, but methinks the railroads bear some responsibility for running these trains even if they "lowballed" themselves. After all, a contract is a contract! ;)
Yes I quite agree. They signed a contract and they should honor it. If you look at the Amtrak site, most of the delays are caused by the host railroads. But as I said somewhere in here I don't believe it is intentional. True there are incidents that could be handled better but for the most part it is just congestion. I have driven from Houston to San Antonio a number of times taking the back roads and the UP often has trains plugging most every siding. If Amtrak gets stabbed behind a slow freight there is no place to put it and Amtrak just has to follow along until space becomes available. On the BNSF transcon which is double track it is a constant parade of trains. I often detour that way on my trips to Colorado watching the action around Vaughn, NM and Abo Canyon and have followed the route all the way to California on occasion. Amtrak SWC has to somehow negotiate all this traffic west of Albuquerque so when they get stuck they just have to follow the crowd until the dispatcher can arrange a run around. I have ridden the Sunset Limited from LA to Houston and it is fasinating to watch the action even if you are getting behind. The time I rode the Empire Builder most of the delays were caused by having to double and triple stop at stations with small platforms. Last May I rode the Lake Shore and it ended up being an hour late into Buffalo......but the action all night was amazing. We were constantly passing trains so much that I got little sleep. The LD trains will always be subject to traffic congestion and just have to deal with it. Unless we decide to spend billions to upgrade tracks or build separate passenger routes Amtrak will always have problems even in the so called corridors. For instance, California has virtually taken over the LA to San Diego route and vastly upgraded it.
 
If Amtrak gets stabbed behind a slow freight there is no place to put it and Amtrak just has to follow along until space becomes available.
While I sure that is true, on the east coast here, I know that many times Amtrak is the one who needs to pull over onto a siding, and either travel extremely slowly or stop all together, to allow a freight train priority. After all, it is an CSX train and they are on CSX tracks.
 
I think the usually accepted definition of "revenue" car would be one on which passengers pay a fare to ride. The bills paid by passengers for meals on dining and lounge cars are hardly to be expected to be paying for the operation of those cars. Those bills are merely, logically, only paying for the cost of the food. I would hope that pay for the staff comes out of general revenue. In reality, the cost of the food may actually be less than what is charged. Nevertheless, the modest "profit" charged for food on those cars shouldn't be expected to pay for the operation of the car.

In reference to “carry-out food”, I’m referring only to the cuisine currently served aboard either the lounges or diner-lounges. I don’t consider any exact meaning for any of the terms I’ve used for dining establishments other than a general difference between that of lounges or diner-lounges and dining cars.

Considering that AMTRAK has to hope politicians will tax money from taxpayers to pay for something they won't pay for voluntarily (since what is being paid for is apparently found by them to be largely unusable, judging by the amount of non-rail traffic along AMTRAK routes, especially at rush hours), any revenue received by AMTRAK is something like a drop of water to one thirsting in the desert. It is evident, therefore, that it is the taxpayer who is possibly paying for those complimentary meals along with, potentially, any other item in AMTRAK’s budget. The deficit includes something!

Someone might point out that even the fares on the revenue cars aren't paying the way for those cars. That's true. I won't go into why the cars are so expensive to run that the cost can't be affordably divided per passenger (or, can it?). I'm not convinced and I haven’t seen any detailed convincing proof that that unaffordable cost is unavoidable.

Nevertheless, with AMTRAK's stated revenues and expenses-- unless something is being left out-- it would appear that with fares left about where they are, with adequately increased revenue ridership and added sales of advertisement space onboard trains for roughly the same amount of revenue as the fares themselves gain, AMTRAK could accordingly approximately double their revenue without additional passengers or purpose-defeating additional cars and onboard service crew per train, pay the host railroads a mutually reasonable amount for using their tracks and break even. Now, there might be a temptation for bureaucracy to burgeon and gobble up all the black ink for irrelevant, non-essential, non-operating boondoggles, excreting red ink in its place and create new deficits.

The revised schedules I've mentioned should, in all logical likelihood, make AMTRAK service "screamingly" attractive as a transportation service-- not as a fine restaurant, a tour of railroadiana or any other tax subsidized frivolity (as much as I might revel in the fine dining or the railroadiana). Attractiveness and reliability as a serious and astonishingly efficient transportation option are more likely what will bring in revenue passengers—not offering breath mints or wine tasting, though those are nice and hopefully economical touches.

Why is advertising to those attentive passengers while they are either riding undistractedly aboard a train and able to copy information contained in an ad they see inside or when someone sees the ad on the side of a car while sitting at a crossing or some other stop and worth paying for by businesses not desirable? That, to me, defies business logic-- especially if the ad only costs the amount of a train ticket per trip. Isn’t that logic what largely funds television, radio, newspapers, magazines and the Internet?

It is debatable as to whether trains would be greatly cheaper to ride than is driving—at least as long as fuel is affordable at all to the individual. As long as it is moderately equal in cost to driving there are several other logically important factors that make train travel more valuable to the passenger than mere financial cost.

There are people, however, that would pay much more and take much more time to drive along the very route of an AMTRAK train, even if the train schedule vaguely accommodated them, merely because that's all they know or believe in doing. How much, indeed, are people going to pay for that cultural habit and for how long? I’ll not get into the historically apparent overall greater survivability of train travel than that of driving or flying in the event of a major accident.

I do strongly suspect that when AMTRAK is out of business—except for expensively managed, short, dead-end, isolated corridors—resulting from the very reasons I've written against, and there are no through trains to use, then there will be no complimentary meals (as there are none now when driving) and driving, buses or flying will be the only option, no matter how onerous, if driving, buses or flying are even still available by being affordable. In the end, complimentary meals are somewhat negligible to the larger AMTRAK budget. The cost of running the dining and lounge cars, however, might not be that negligible. (It’s interesting how the suggestion of elimination of free meals, amounting to a relatively small amount of money to each passenger by comparison, is so opposed while my suggestion of potentially deeply discounting fares by the fraction of passengers per party, a potentially greater amount of savings for passengers, seems—along with other parts of my proposals—to have been overlooked. These concepts have to be taken in context. If AMTRAK charges $50 a hamburger, or maybe even anymore than $.50, if that’s all one is worth, or bans private stocks of food or beverage, then I would seek other transportation. Trying to “trap” customers into doing business with only one company is a sure way to drive away customers from that company.)

For now, I, and so many, many others, have to drive or fly along AMTRAK's routes, even if I or they might rather take the train, simply because so many AMTRAK trains leave before the majority of people get off work, even in major cities where AMTRAK runs (and even runs superfluously, it might be argued), and arrives after most people have to be at work. If AMTRAK is going to be salvageable, it must, one could reason, be by its own revenue. That was and largely is still the political expectation for AMTRAK—to be self-sufficient or disappear, just like anything else in truly free enterprise, including other things we depend on such as grocery stores.

It might be that politically controlled funding of AMTRAK will be only for political uses, not more and better rail passenger service accessible to the majority for their serious long and short distance travel needs. If AMTRAK is to maximize its revenue, it must utilize every means available, including offering commuting and other business travel to passengers when passengers can use it and, in the way of seeking subsidy in order to lessen the cost to passengers and to further ensure revenue when ridership is down, participating in the free enterprise system such as offering advertisement space for sale to other businesses—a “win-win” proposition for all—not by merely giving away “free” meals. AMTRAK does seem to do a good job in “partnering” with companies in the GUEST REWARDS program.

If dining and lounge cars are in any way sustainable, I prefer the ones such as Pullman's Palace Cars with chandeliers, varnished mahogany, paisley brocade, silver, brass and crystal—the works! If that can be provided to everyone affordably and equitably, the way that Pullman reputedly meant it to be available, even if it has to be with imitation materials, then that's my suggestion for every car's design. Maybe that’s another topic.

Otherwise, it looks like the Pelican might win out as the cross-Dixie connector instead of the Tennessean. That could put Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville and Chattanooga in connection with Atlanta or Birmingham, or both, and Vicksburg, Jackson, Shreveport and Dallas/Ft. Worth. It would be good to have a southerly connection between the CRESCENT, CITY OF NEW ORLEANS and TEXAS EAGLE— a rail connection strategically between New Orleans and Chicago—as well as making rail passenger connections for all the points along the line with the rest of the AMTRAK system.
 
While I sure that is true, on the east coast here, I know that many times Amtrak is the one who needs to pull over onto a siding, and either travel extremely slowly or stop all together, to allow a freight train priority. After all, it is an CSX train and they are on CSX tracks.
My understanding is that, in many cases, you have 10-20 mile stretches with no passing tracks whatsoever. If a freight train going in the direction opposite the Amtrak train has covered 3/4 of a 20 mile stretch of track at 30 MPH when the Amtrak train arrives at the passing siding, what do you expect the CSX dispatcher to do? I'd sort of expect the dispatcher to make the Amtrak train wait ten minutes for the freight to cover that last five miles.
 
While I sure that is true, on the east coast here, I know that many times Amtrak is the one who needs to pull over onto a siding, and either travel extremely slowly or stop all together, to allow a freight train priority. After all, it is an CSX train and they are on CSX tracks.
My understanding is that, in many cases, you have 10-20 mile stretches with no passing tracks whatsoever. If a freight train going in the direction opposite the Amtrak train has covered 3/4 of a 20 mile stretch of track at 30 MPH when the Amtrak train arrives at the passing siding, what do you expect the CSX dispatcher to do? I'd sort of expect the dispatcher to make the Amtrak train wait ten minutes for the freight to cover that last five miles.

In my trip accross Canada on the "Canadian" many times the CN dispatcher would put us on the siding because the opposing freight was either too long or struggling up a grade in which case it was actually more effient for us to take the siding and let him pass without having to stop.
 
In my trip across Canada on the "Canadian" many times the CN dispatcher would put us on the siding because the opposing freight was either too long or struggling up a grade in which case it was actually more efficient for us to take the siding and let him pass without having to stop.
When I rode The Canadian a few years ago we pulled into a siding that didn't have a way out on the other end. So, after the freight passed, we had to back out and then go forward on the main track. That took some time it shouldn't have.
 
I think the usually accepted definition of "revenue" car would be one on which passengers pay a fare to ride. The bills paid by passengers for meals on dining and lounge cars are hardly to be expected to be paying for the operation of those cars. Those bills are merely, logically, only paying for the cost of the food. I would hope that pay for the staff comes out of general revenue. In reality, the cost of the food may actually be less than what is charged. Nevertheless, the modest "profit" charged for food on those cars shouldn't be expected to pay for the operation of the car.
Good point. ;)

Let me add that the supervisor of the dining car, is also the supervisor for the sleeping cars. So, another reason to support those dining car salaries should come out of the general revenue.

BTW, are dormer cars and baggage cars "revenue" cars, or simply the general cost of running a train?
 
I am still irritated that Amtrak or Rail travel is picked to pieces by Congress, Presidents, readers to this forum ect. When in fact the support given the highway systems, the airlines, or almost any other government program just rolls along spending into oblivion with no question of how the money is spent. If we are going to support rail travel as it was taken over from the railroads, then the diners and lounges were part of the deal. Its part of a train, always has been and always should be. If Amtrak is able to generate thousands of dollars a person for a room then meals that reflect that kind of price structure should be maintained which currently it is not.

As to long distance routes, I read with interest the Weekly Report above that mentioned that amtraks president reflected that short distance was the way to go. I think they are sadly missing the boat. People all over the country would flock to overnight trains if they were available going where or from where they wanted to go. However they are not. Connecting rail service always served the long distance trains and are still part of the picture, but not the whole answer.

I have seen little suggestions in the what routes are needed as to the center of the country being served from East to West, or for that matter in any direction.. A cross country New York, St. Louis, Kansas City, Denver, or Omaha would help, as would St. Louis and points south east and north west. Many of those overlaps would provide much needed shorter connections for travelers from the center of the country instead of lengthy travel and delays in Chicago.. (sorry Chicago Fans).
 
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I am still irritated that Amtrak or Rail travel is picked to pieces by Congress, Presidents, readers to this forum etc. When in fact the support given the highway systems, the airlines, or almost any other government program just rolls along spending into oblivion with no question of how the money is spent. If we are going to support rail travel as it was taken over from the railroads, then the diners and lounges were part of the deal. Its part of a train, always has been and always should be. If Amtrak is able to generate thousands of dollars a person for a room then meals that reflect that kind of price structure should be maintained which currently it is not.
Remember, though, that before Amtrak, the price of meals was not included in the sleeping space cost for a passenger. If you paid for coach, then added on a room at an additional charge, you still had to pay extra for the meals in the dining car and snacks in the lounge car. Many sleeping car passengers, pre-Amtrak, probably didn't bother to eat full meals in the dining car.

Don't get me wrong, one of the main reasons I ride Amtrak, when I can, is for the dining car experience. But, there have to be a ton of coach passengers out there who wouldn't even know the diner were gone if Amtrak stopped putting them on trains.
 
But, there have to be a ton of coach passengers out there who wouldn't even know the diner were gone if Amtrak stopped putting them on trains.
There's probably a ton of mouthbreathers who wouldn't know if we closed all public libraries. Just because something could be done, doesn't mean that it should be done.
 
In my trip across Canada on the "Canadian" many times the CN dispatcher would put us on the siding because the opposing freight was either too long or struggling up a grade in which case it was actually more efficient for us to take the siding and let him pass without having to stop.
When I rode The Canadian a few years ago we pulled into a siding that didn't have a way out on the other end. So, after the freight passed, we had to back out and then go forward on the main track. That took some time it shouldn't have.
Actually we did that once also. But........if there is no way out, how is the freight going to get onto the siding?????????? It is much easier to maneuver a short passenger train than a mile long freight train. Your lucky the siding was there so you could make the meet.
 
Remember, though, that before Amtrak, the price of meals was not included in the sleeping space cost for a passenger. If you paid for coach, then added on a room at an additional charge, you still had to pay extra for the meals in the dining car and snacks in the lounge car. Many sleeping car passengers, pre-Amtrak, probably didn't bother to eat full meals in the dining car.
But doesn't including meals with sleeper accommodations help the dining car? I mean, it gives the dining car a fixed, minimum, number of meals that will be paid for, even if not actually eaten.
 
In reference to having to buy your meals pre amtrak in the sleepers, yes that was true! I know I am not totally senile but in comparison, even though eveything has gone up, the prices that were charged for a room or the dinner for that matter were much more within the grasp of everyday people. Now to take a sleeper you nearly have to take out a loan, or save for a long time. I wish I had my old tickets which I threw out some years ago thinking I would never need them, but I can distinctly recall how when comparing the charge for a coach seat to a pullman, the pullman was a small percentage more. So everyday people who wanted to step up to a bit more comfort onboard could do so. Yes I do it now, but the toll on the budget is much different as it is no doubt for many. Only those who have a lot of expendable cash can just travel all over at sleeper prices today. And maybe that is the way it should be. Still for a person who can't or won't fly and needs to make a long distance trip, the cost can be quite a jolt. Most of that stems from congress insisting that amtrak do what none of the other forms of transportation do, pay its own way if possible. To me it rather contradicts the whole idea of providing usable rail transportation. People are flocking to Amtrak now because the rates at least in coach are for the most part reasonable. Somewhere along the line the sleeper passenger got the short end of the stick.
 
In reference to having to buy your meals pre amtrak in the sleepers, yes that was true! I know I am not totally senile but in comparison, even though eveything has gone up, the prices that were charged for a room or the dinner for that matter were much more within the grasp of everyday people. Now to take a sleeper you nearly have to take out a loan, or save for a long time. I wish I had my old tickets which I threw out some years ago thinking I would never need them, but I can distinctly recall how when comparing the charge for a coach seat to a pullman, the pullman was a small percentage more. So everyday people who wanted to step up to a bit more comfort onboard could do so. Yes I do it now, but the toll on the budget is much different as it is no doubt for many. Only those who have a lot of expendable cash can just travel all over at sleeper prices today. And maybe that is the way it should be. Still for a person who can't or won't fly and needs to make a long distance trip, the cost can be quite a jolt. Most of that stems from congress insisting that amtrak do what none of the other forms of transportation do, pay its own way if possible. To me it rather contradicts the whole idea of providing usable rail transportation. People are flocking to Amtrak now because the rates at least in coach are for the most part reasonable. Somewhere along the line the sleeper passenger got the short end of the stick.
I have been thinking along the same lines for a few days now. I live on the east coast and my son has lived in LA for over 9 years now. I just got to visit him there for the first time this summer. I'm retired and on a fixed income, I have multiple disabilities, I cannot fly, driving would put quite a stress on me, I can't walk from the H room I've used to the dining car nor could I use it if I could and coach seats are out of the question for me. Even todays prices are quite a strain on our budget let alone if they went up. If prices shoot up much more or if long distance trains were eliminated, that would virtually mean that the next time I could travel to see my son would go from 9 years or less to probably never! There's more to this story, but as you can see, I definitely agree with what you've said!
 
Only those who have a lot of expendable cash can just travel all over at sleeper prices today. And maybe that is the way it should be. Still for a person who can't or won't fly and needs to make a long distance trip, the cost can be quite a jolt.
I don't find a roomette all that expensive.

My local airlines seem to do a "bucket" thing similar to Amtrak. However, as best as I can tell, there is only very few seats in the lowest bucket which is the fare they feature in their ads (4 per flight?). I have yet to ever snag one of those. So more practically, a round trip to Orlando for the two of us, comes out to $600 with everything. Well, everything except for something to drink.

A round trip roomette for the two of us, on a Silver, is $703 complete.

For that extra $103, I have a much more comfortable, stress free, and enjoyable journey. Yes, the food and the dining car experience is a rather significant part of that journey.
 
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