New Tunnel Under Construction

[gswager]

NEW YORK (CNN) -- The largest mass transit project in the country got under way Monday with the help of federal stimulus dollars, as public officials broke ground on a second passenger rail tunnel beneath the Hudson River.

Here's the info from CNN News.

 

[George Harris]

This thing has been under discussion by NJ transit for a LOOOOOONG time

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Don't bet on it. Me and my associates at the Lackawanna Coalition will fight that tunnel, as currently proposed, to the death. It is a poorly concieved, poorly designed white elephant designed to sever NJTransits need to operate on Amtrak-owned rail, and produce un-needed time-consuming one-seat rides.

 

[AlanB]

While I won't deny that I still think that the lack of a connecting between the exiting NYP and the new tunnel is a big mistake and one that somehow could have been overcome, it's not enough to break the deal for me.

As for severing NJT's need to operate on Amtrak rail, this new tunnel will do nothing to change that need. Yes, Amtrak may demand one or two slots back in the existing tunnels, but NJT won't be giving up the rest of its slots anytime soon. And this new tunnel changes nothing west of Secaucus where trains on the NEC, Raritan, Coast, and Midtown direct services will still need to operate on Amtrak rails for at least part of their journeys.

And one seat rides are never unneeded. Frankly, while I understand at the time why it was built, what's unneeded is the monument that NJT built at Secaucus Junction. That should have been a simple, minimal transfer point to ease the pain until trains on the Bergen, Main, and Pascack Valley lines could run into NY.

The way to increase ridership is to provide one seat rides. People don't like to transfer!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

While I won't deny that I still think that the lack of a connecting between the exiting NYP and the new tunnel is a big mistake and one that somehow could have been overcome, it's not enough to break the deal for me.
As for severing NJT's need to operate on Amtrak rail, this new tunnel will do nothing to change that need. Yes, Amtrak may demand one or two slots back in the existing tunnels, but NJT won't be giving up the rest of its slots anytime soon. And this new tunnel changes nothing west of Secaucus where trains on the NEC, Raritan, Coast, and Midtown direct services will still need to operate on Amtrak rails for at least part of their journeys.

And one seat rides are never unneeded. Frankly, while I understand at the time why it was built, what's unneeded is the monument that NJT built at Secaucus Junction. That should have been a simple, minimal transfer point to ease the pain until trains on the Bergen, Main, and Pascack Valley lines could run into NY.

The way to increase ridership is to provide one seat rides. People don't like to transfer!

The time saved by the transfers at Dover, Long Branch, and Secaucus over the time it will take to exit the deep cavern terminal will mean many people will still perform those transfers.

 

[AlanB]

While I won't deny that I still think that the lack of a connecting between the exiting NYP and the new tunnel is a big mistake and one that somehow could have been overcome, it's not enough to break the deal for me.
As for severing NJT's need to operate on Amtrak rail, this new tunnel will do nothing to change that need. Yes, Amtrak may demand one or two slots back in the existing tunnels, but NJT won't be giving up the rest of its slots anytime soon. And this new tunnel changes nothing west of Secaucus where trains on the NEC, Raritan, Coast, and Midtown direct services will still need to operate on Amtrak rails for at least part of their journeys.

And one seat rides are never unneeded. Frankly, while I understand at the time why it was built, what's unneeded is the monument that NJT built at Secaucus Junction. That should have been a simple, minimal transfer point to ease the pain until trains on the Bergen, Main, and Pascack Valley lines could run into NY.

The way to increase ridership is to provide one seat rides. People don't like to transfer!

The time saved by the transfers at Dover, Long Branch, and Secaucus over the time it will take to exit the deep cavern terminal will mean many people will still perform those transfers.

With the new dual mode locos there will be no transfers at Dover or Long Branch like there is today. Only those not wanting an express ride into the city because they are headed elsewhere in NJ will consider transferring at those two stations. That means that it will be highly likely that NJT will eliminate cross platform transfers at those stations, or at least the kind that exist today where the diesel pulls up, everyone runs across the plat and the electric pulls out. Now the diesel will leave first and the electric if it's even in the station will sit there for a while.

As for Secaucus Junction, no one is going to want to go through that maze, the hassle of the turnstyles that require inserting a ticket, and standing around for 4 to 5 minutes to await the next arriving train with no seats, when they can keep sitting in the seat that they already have. Even if that means a 4 minute escalator ride once they get to NY.

 

[Tony]

I guess this new tunnel will help support the new Poconos-to-NYC commuter train, that just got passed another approval hurdle (the EPA).

 

[jis]

While I won't deny that I still think that the lack of a connecting between the exiting NYP and the new tunnel is a big mistake and one that somehow could have been overcome, it's not enough to break the deal for me.

I agree with you.

As for severing NJT's need to operate on Amtrak rail, this new tunnel will do nothing to change that need. Yes, Amtrak may demand one or two slots back in the existing tunnels, but NJT won't be giving up the rest of its slots anytime soon. And this new tunnel changes nothing west of Secaucus where trains on the NEC, Raritan, Coast, and Midtown direct services will still need to operate on Amtrak rails for at least part of their journeys.

Actually with the track layout as planned Midtown Directs will completely cease to operate on any Amtrak track. They will operate on the new NJT tracks over the south Portal bridge which will be an entirely NJT operation with access only to NYPSE.

The separation between NYP and NYPSE bound trains will take place at a completely rebuilt CP Swift. Midtown Directs will go straight from M&E tracks to the new NYPSE tracks without ever touching NEC tracks. NEC trains will continue to operate into NYP, as will most, if not all, NJCL trains. Not sure about RVL. They will likely transfer voer to NYPSE. Actually at least initially NJT didn't even plan to build all the transfer tracks between NEC and NYPSE at Swift. Some of use raised questions about it and in response they added the necessary missing parts.

The way to increase ridership is to provide one seat rides. People don't like to transfer!

I agree. The acid test will be whether NJT will be able to entice enough Bergen County riders away from their buses into trains.

 

[jis]

The time saved by the transfers at Dover, Long Branch, and Secaucus over the time it will take to exit the deep cavern terminal will mean many people will still perform those transfers.

Why would someone take the trouble to transfer at SEC to get to overcrowded narrow platforms from which it takes 10 minutes to get to the surface anyway due to narrow and insufficient egress beats me. but of course Lackawanna Coalition knows best

 

[Green Maned Lion]

While I won't deny that I still think that the lack of a connecting between the exiting NYP and the new tunnel is a big mistake and one that somehow could have been overcome, it's not enough to break the deal for me.
As for severing NJT's need to operate on Amtrak rail, this new tunnel will do nothing to change that need. Yes, Amtrak may demand one or two slots back in the existing tunnels, but NJT won't be giving up the rest of its slots anytime soon. And this new tunnel changes nothing west of Secaucus where trains on the NEC, Raritan, Coast, and Midtown direct services will still need to operate on Amtrak rails for at least part of their journeys.

And one seat rides are never unneeded. Frankly, while I understand at the time why it was built, what's unneeded is the monument that NJT built at Secaucus Junction. That should have been a simple, minimal transfer point to ease the pain until trains on the Bergen, Main, and Pascack Valley lines could run into NY.

The way to increase ridership is to provide one seat rides. People don't like to transfer!

The time saved by the transfers at Dover, Long Branch, and Secaucus over the time it will take to exit the deep cavern terminal will mean many people will still perform those transfers.

With the new dual mode locos there will be no transfers at Dover or Long Branch like there is today. Only those not wanting an express ride into the city because they are headed elsewhere in NJ will consider transferring at those two stations. That means that it will be highly likely that NJT will eliminate cross platform transfers at those stations, or at least the kind that exist today where the diesel pulls up, everyone runs across the plat and the electric pulls out. Now the diesel will leave first and the electric if it's even in the station will sit there for a while.

As for Secaucus Junction, no one is going to want to go through that maze, the hassle of the turnstyles that require inserting a ticket, and standing around for 4 to 5 minutes to await the next arriving train with no seats, when they can keep sitting in the seat that they already have. Even if that means a 4 minute escalator ride once they get to NY.

The time saved by the transfers at Dover, Long Branch, and Secaucus over the time it will take to exit the deep cavern terminal will mean many people will still perform those transfers.

Why would someone take the trouble to transfer at SEC to get to overcrowded narrow platforms from which it takes 10 minutes to get to the surface anyway due to narrow and insufficient egress beats me. but of course Lackawanna Coalition knows best

Because the escalator ride will take 7 minutes on its own from the Mez and in addition, once the various major safety flaws of the station become known a lot of people will avoid using it.

 

[AlanB]

Because the escalator ride will take 7 minutes on its own from the Mez and in addition, once the various major safety flaws of the station become known a lot of people will avoid using it.

People still go up into very tall buildings despite the known major safety flaws and despite having watched two of them fall to the ground in less than 30 seconds.

People will use the new station no matter what to save time and to get a one seat ride. Sorry!

 

[PRR 60]

...Because the escalator ride will take 7 minutes on its own from the Mez and in addition, once the various major safety flaws of the station become known a lot of people will avoid using it.

A typical escalator moves at 2 feet per second and is set at a 30-degree angle to horizontal. That results in a 1-foot per second vertical speed. A 150-foot rise will take 2.5 minutes. 1 minute for me since I walk the escalator (stand right, walk left).

There is no greater safety hazard than those antiquated platforms and inadequate stairways at NYP. Lets hope there is never a need to rapidly evacuate a NJT trainload of passengers from down there. That place is a catastrophe waiting to happen. If safety is the issue, I would greatly prefer NYPSE.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

...Because the escalator ride will take 7 minutes on its own from the Mez and in addition, once the various major safety flaws of the station become known a lot of people will avoid using it.

A typical escalator moves at 2 feet per second and is set at a 30-degree angle to horizontal. That results in a 1-foot per second vertical speed. A 150-foot rise will take 2.5 minutes. 1 minute for me since I walk the escalator (stand right, walk left).

There is no greater safety hazard than those antiquated platforms and inadequate stairways at NYP. Lets hope there is never a need to rapidly evacuate a NJT trainload of passengers from down there. That place is a catastrophe waiting to happen. If safety is the issue, I would greatly prefer NYPSE.

I grant that NYP is not exactly a safe station, although the LIRR section of NYP is considerably better then NJT and Amtrak's section in that regard. However, the biggest flaw with NYPSE is that there is only one escalator shaft at one point- if it becomes defunct, there is no escape. Skyscrapers have more than one emergency staircase. A typical NYP platform has 4 exits, and there are aren't many dead-ends in the station itself. Atleast evacuation would be possible if one exit in NYP is blocked. If the central escalator shaft is blocked in NYPSE, that's all she wrote.

 

[George Harris]

I grant that NYP is not exactly a safe station, although the LIRR section of NYP is considerably better then NJT and Amtrak's section in that regard. However, the biggest flaw with NYPSE is that there is only one escalator shaft at one point- if it becomes defunct, there is no escape. Skyscrapers have more than one emergency staircase. A typical NYP platform has 4 exits, and there are aren't many dead-ends in the station itself. Atleast evacuation would be possible if one exit in NYP is blocked. If the central escalator shaft is blocked in NYPSE, that's all she wrote.

Having worked on some of this stuff, I think there has got to be something wrong with what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, there is no way this station could meet the fire codes as they apply to transit systems, which is what would be the classification of this stations.

 

[jis]

I grant that NYP is not exactly a safe station, although the LIRR section of NYP is considerably better then NJT and Amtrak's section in that regard. However, the biggest flaw with NYPSE is that there is only one escalator shaft at one point- if it becomes defunct, there is no escape. Skyscrapers have more than one emergency staircase. A typical NYP platform has 4 exits, and there are aren't many dead-ends in the station itself. Atleast evacuation would be possible if one exit in NYP is blocked. If the central escalator shaft is blocked in NYPSE, that's all she wrote.

Having worked on some of this stuff, I think there has got to be something wrong with what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, there is no way this station could meet the fire codes as they apply to transit systems, which is what would be the classification of this stations.

The design does meet the latest NYFD fire code developed after the collapse of the WTC towers. The reason that there is a mezzanine between the two levels is to meet the total width requirements for egresses for a given capacity. And even for the egress from the mezzanine to the surface there are sufficient and redundant egresses as required by the fire code.

Actually I was given a very nice explanation by a certified civil engineer who has nothing to do with NJT and is indeed a critic of some of the aspects of the design. He went over in detail about why the whole design is the way it is and how each aspect is determined by the needs of meeting various regulatory requirements. It was quite interesting. I do have the lengthy screed that he sent me somewhere.

Incidentally none of the NJT or Amtrak platforms at NYP come even close to meeting the current fire code. So I find it kind of ironic when people espousing the interest of safety would rather have more people pile into the death-trap that NYP is instead of considering the possibility of a station with a more upto date design. I just don't get it.

You know I never thought I would be defending NJT's ARC project, certain aspects of which for various reasons I do not like in its current form. But OTOH I find some of the criticisms leveled against it a bit over the top, and some of the alternative suggested quite unrealistic and impractical.

Needless to say, even as imperfect as it is, I am actually looking forward to use NYPSE. Of course as GML has said his group is working hard to make sure that that does not happen. And I would be quite happy if they fail in that endeavor, because if they succeed what will happen is we will not have new tunnels, we will not have any additional capacity and we will be stuck with the hellhole that NYP is for the next 40 years. Because once the money (if it actually materializes ) is gone it will be quite a while for the political stars on both sides of the river to align again to make things happen again.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Having worked on some of this stuff, I think there has got to be something wrong with what you are saying. If what you are saying is true, there is no way this station could meet the fire codes as they apply to transit systems, which is what would be the classification of this stations.

I know. There is some weird technicality that eludes my memory for the moment that allows them to claim that. But that is one of our arguments: It DOESN'T meet the codes.

 

[PRR 60]

...However, the biggest flaw with NYPSE is that there is only one escalator shaft at one point- if it becomes defunct, there is no escape. Skyscrapers have more than one emergency staircase. A typical NYP platform has 4 exits, and there are aren't many dead-ends in the station itself. Atleast evacuation would be possible if one exit in NYP is blocked. If the central escalator shaft is blocked in NYPSE, that's all she wrote.

There are three high-rise escalator banks planned between the mezzanine level and the sub-street level: one at Sixth/Broadway, one at Seventh, and one at Eighth. Each bank will have five high-speed escalators. There will be five exits to the streets, and also direct, underground pedestian connections to Penn Station and the NYC Subway.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You know I never thought I would be defending NJT's ARC project, certain aspects of which for various reasons I do not like in its current form. But OTOH I find some of the criticisms leveled against it a bit over the top, and some of the alternative suggested quite unrealistic and impractical.

Because for $8.6 billion dollars, we could construct two tunnels directly into NYP AND build Moynihan Station. And we could remove all of the problems with the current platforms, increase capacity, and get rid of the whole ridiculous concept of a 150 foot escalator trip. Furthermore, it would allow Amtrak to take advantage of more than two slots of that additional capacity, which the current plan does not. And for a little more money, I bet you could even modify things so that Superliners could run into Penn.

Why are we settling for this joke of a station? It is a bad solution. It might be better than nothing, but I refuse to believe that the project could not be intelligently redesigned in a year and STILL open EARLIER than NYPSE because we wouldn't need to spend time and money excavating a gigantic cavern 150 feet below the streets of Manhattan.

 

[AlanB]

Because for $8.6 billion dollars, we could construct two tunnels directly into NYP AND build Moynihan Station. And we could remove all of the problems with the current platforms, increase capacity, and get rid of the whole ridiculous concept of a 150 foot escalator trip. Furthermore, it would allow Amtrak to take advantage of more than two slots of that additional capacity, which the current plan does not. And for a little more money, I bet you could even modify things so that Superliners could run into Penn.

While a noble idea, Moynihan is a project that should be put out to pasture. It only marginally made sense for Amtrak to consider Moynihan, and absolutely no sense for NJT to consider it. Commuters want to connect to subways upon arrival. Moynihan is one block too far away from the most useful subways. The only answer that ever really made sense was to the Garden behind the Farley Post Office and build a new Penn Station in place of the Garden.

The LIRR was smart when they without hesitation turned down space in Moynihan after David Gunn nixed the idea of Amtrak moving over there and having to pay rent. NJT under Warrington once again seemed to be having dreams of grandeur in building another unneeded monument like Secaucus Junction and even the current space in NYP. Who needs Italian pink marble in a train station for commuters? People don't even hang out long enough to admire it. They want more trains; they want better cars, better engines. Not Italian pink marble.

As for Superliners, that's DOA. There is no point in building anything to accommodate them at NYP or even NYPSE, as you still can't get them to Sunnyside for servicing.

 

[TVRM610]

While I don't live in NJ, I really like the Secaucas Jct. Station (and I just used it this week). I see your point Alan, that commuters don't care about the expensive marble etc. but I personally like it when things look nice and stylish. The JCT. is a really really well designed and pretty station, I love using it!

 

[AlanB]

While I don't live in NJ, I really like the Secaucas Jct. Station (and I just used it this week). I see your point Alan, that commuters don't care about the expensive marble etc. but I personally like it when things look nice and stylish. The JCT. is a really really well designed and pretty station, I love using it!

I don't dislike the station itself and I agree it does look "nice and stylish." But I'm sure that they could have still managed to achieve nice & stylish without importing marble from Italy for it, and for 7th Avenue for that matter.

However my bigger problem with Secaucus is the fact that once the new tunnels are built under the Hudson, it will see very little use. Other than people wishing to transfer from the Bergen/Main lines and to go west on the NEC and vice versa, this huge station will go largely empty. No one is going to endure a forced wait of at least 5 minutes, multiple escalators, turnstyles where you have to insert your ticket, and give up their seat on a train to transfer to/from the Bergen/Main to NYP.

They are going to board the trains that will run directly into NYP from the Bergen/Main lines. Some will even board and stand on a full direct train, rather than endure the transfer.

And Secaucus Junction will largely become an unused monument that sees only a handful of passengers each day and an expensive albatross around NJT's neck to maintain and heat/cool. And people will come to hate it thinking of all the other wonderful projects that could have been done with the money that was poured into a station that saw 10 minutes of fame and glory.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

While I don't live in NJ, I really like the Secaucas Jct. Station (and I just used it this week). I see your point Alan, that commuters don't care about the expensive marble etc. but I personally like it when things look nice and stylish. The JCT. is a really really well designed and pretty station, I love using it!

I don't dislike the station itself and I agree it does look "nice and stylish." But I'm sure that they could have still managed to achieve nice & stylish without importing marble from Italy for it, and for 7th Avenue for that matter.

However my bigger problem with Secaucus is the fact that once the new tunnels are built under the Hudson, it will see very little use. Other than people wishing to transfer from the Bergen/Main lines and to go west on the NEC and vice versa, this huge station will go largely empty. No one is going to endure a forced wait of at least 5 minutes, multiple escalators, turnstyles where you have to insert your ticket, and give up their seat on a train to transfer to/from the Bergen/Main to NYP.

They are going to board the trains that will run directly into NYP from the Bergen/Main lines. Some will even board and stand on a full direct train, rather than endure the transfer.

And Secaucus Junction will largely become an unused monument that sees only a handful of passengers each day and an expensive albatross around NJT's neck to maintain and heat/cool. And people will come to hate it thinking of all the other wonderful projects that could have been done with the money that was poured into a station that saw 10 minutes of fame and glory.

I never thought about it like that. I mean I've used it several times its always something I dread since its always means getting on to a full train no matter what direction you take it. If all the lines run into NYPSE I still think there would be some traffic for those looking to go to Hoboken. Also, its a great place to railfan as the Amtrak trains speed right through. Granteed I'm not a commuter and only went through Seacacus once during a weekday rush period, It didn't feel any buiser then the Saturday Afternoons I've sat waiting to change there.

 

[jis]

I never thought about it like that. I mean I've used it several times its always something I dread since its always means getting on to a full train no matter what direction you take it. If all the lines run into NYPSE I still think there would be some traffic for those looking to go to Hoboken. Also, its a great place to railfan as the Amtrak trains speed right through. Granteed I'm not a commuter and only went through Seacacus once during a weekday rush period, It didn't feel any buiser then the Saturday Afternoons I've sat waiting to change there.

I agree with Alan's general contention in the message that the above is a response to.

All I would like to add is that SEC should be developed as a primary transfer point for intra-NJ travelers. This has already started happening to some extent and its relevance in that role will not be diminished one iota even after ARC is constructed and is operational.

 

[jis]

You know I never thought I would be defending NJT's ARC project, certain aspects of which for various reasons I do not like in its current form. But OTOH I find some of the criticisms leveled against it a bit over the top, and some of the alternative suggested quite unrealistic and impractical.

Because for $8.6 billion dollars, we could construct two tunnels directly into NYP AND build Moynihan Station. And we could remove all of the problems with the current platforms, increase capacity, and get rid of the whole ridiculous concept of a 150 foot escalator trip. Furthermore, it would allow Amtrak to take advantage of more than two slots of that additional capacity, which the current plan does not. And for a little more money, I bet you could even modify things so that Superliners could run into Penn.

Why transit construction funds should even be considered for use to construct Moynihan Station beats me too. It is afterall mostly a mall with a few ticket machines and stairways to platforms, all located somewhere that is patently inconvenient for most commuters. it should be put out to pasture, as Alan rightly says.

As for removing all problems with current platforms, these are the sort of statements that finally convinced me that those that espouse such ideas have no idea what they were talking about. How do you exactly remove all current problems without increasing the net platform area per platform track? And if you do that in a constricted space that is NYP how do you do it without reducing the number of tracks available? And if you do that how is that achieved without reducing capacity - and all this while you are actually adding more traffic through the new tunnels? Ah yes, I know, the next mantra is that all that capacity will magically materialize by running all trains through, and of course then conveniently forget that in order to do so it will require wholesale replacement of rolling stock which is of course assumed to cost nothing since actually costing that out blows another hole in the argument. And while this major surgery is taking place at Penn Station how is the disruption going to be handled? Oh, we have to handle that too?

All of Moynihan Station and Penn Station put together does not increase track capacity one bit, and these guys keep insisting that they can shove 25 more tph through that mess from a new tunnel in addition to the traffic from the existing tunnel. It would really be nice to know what brand they are smoking.

Why are we settling for this joke of a station? It is a bad solution. It might be better than nothing, but I refuse to believe that the project could not be intelligently redesigned in a year and STILL open EARLIER than NYPSE because we wouldn't need to spend time and money excavating a gigantic cavern 150 feet below the streets of Manhattan.

Just because a few people repeatedly call something a joke and bad etc. etc. over and over again does not necessarily make it so. Yes it has its imperfections, what doesn't? But is it bad enough to be rejected in lieu of nothing happening for many years, which is what will happen? I don't think so.

Of course anyone is free to believe whatever they like, but until they are able to convince sufficient number of people that they are not out in the left field, with their own proposals, they are unlikely to be taken seriously. Calling something "a joke" and then making blanket statements like "one believes that something better can be done" without providing any details with at least a plausible outline construction plan, ops plan and cost estimates, does not exactly increase confidence in the claims being made.

 

[AlanB]

I never thought about it like that. I mean I've used it several times its always something I dread since its always means getting on to a full train no matter what direction you take it. If all the lines run into NYPSE I still think there would be some traffic for those looking to go to Hoboken. Also, its a great place to railfan as the Amtrak trains speed right through. Granteed I'm not a commuter and only went through Seacacus once during a weekday rush period, It didn't feel any buiser then the Saturday Afternoons I've sat waiting to change there.

I agree with Alan's general contention in the message that the above is a response to.

All I would like to add is that SEC should be developed as a primary transfer point for intra-NJ travelers. This has already started happening to some extent and its relevance in that role will not be diminished one iota even after ARC is constructed and is operational.

Jishnu,

Do you have any idea just how much traffic intra-NJ travelers generate for SEC? And are there any forecasts for the future?

And again, I'm not saying that SEC didn't serve a valuable purpose over the past few years and still going forward for the next several. But still and all I believe that the station was way over built for its function. I've never stopped to compare square footage, and I don't know what would happen to NEC schedules if you tried this, but I'd be willing to bet that SEC could easily handle the entire passenger volume that NJT puts into NYP each day and then some. Of course there would be no place for all those people to go, but the station could still handle the volume.

And I don't think that intra-NJ travel will ever get close to that kind of volume, which brings me right back around to "there was a heck of a lot of money wasted on a station that could have been used for other things like MOM, Lackawana Cutoff, double tracking Pascack Valley sooner and more fully than was done, and probably a dozen other projects. Not suggesting that they all could have been done with the money saved, but at least one of those could have been gotten off the ground or started sooner with the money lavished on SEC.

It's also important to note that SEC is not a station that passengers, other than railfans, go to hang out. The average person probably spends less than 15 minutes per day in that station on a round trip, if that. As long as the place doesn't look like crap, they aren't really going to care what it looks like. They just want their next train to come quickly.