Niagara Falls departure at 3:40am

[colobok]

Why does one of 2 Niagara Falls-NYP trains have departure at ridiculous time - 3:40am?

I can't imagine anybody using it as well as 4am and 5am departures from Buffalo and Rochester.

 

[Ryan]

Because people want a midday arrival into New York?

 

[colobok]

Because people want a midday arrival into New York?

Then overnight train would work better.

How do you imagine people waking up at 2am and getting to the station by 3am???

 

[JeffW]

The Rochester at 5:30am is a workable time for Rochester if you need to be to Syracuse or further east at an early time. Granted, the 4:30 is particularly early for Buffalo (and 3am is a redeye for Niagara), but perhaps they set this time based on further down the line: 7:30 in Rome, 7:50 in Utica and 9 in Amsterdam.

On a different note, it would be nice to be able to take a day trip from Rochester to Buffalo, but with the way the schedules are set, that is not currently possible. Of course, it's nice having a station with multiple daily trains (not just one in each direction).

 

[JeffW]

Because people want a midday arrival into New York?

Then overnight train would work better.

How do you imagine people waking up at 2am and getting to the station by 3am???

Oops... I already posted my earlier comment...

Keep in mind, a lot of the midwest stops are in the middle of the night. It's just how it works out. On the LSL, you've got Toledo, Sandusky and Erie PA. For the Southwest Chief, you've got most of Kansas in either direction being overnight.

With the Empire Service, an overnight might be interesting. But my guess is that by moving overnight, Niagara Falls would not gain as many riders as Buffalo and Rochester would lose. Empire Service is a corridor service, not a long-distance train, which means that more people are riding shorter distances.

 

[Ryan]

Because people want a midday arrival into New York?

Then overnight train would work better.

How do you imagine people waking up at 2am and getting to the station by 3am???

What about all the stations in between that would then be served in the middle of the night instead of during the morning?

 

[NS VIA Fan]

There are many places across the Amtrak system with departures in the early morning hours......all long distance overnight trains have them.

At least at Niagara Falls, if you don’t like the 3:40am departure......you have other choices at 7am, 12:30pm or 2:30pm (Su).

 

[Long Train Runnin']

I've ridden that train several times. Its the best choice if you want to get to NY, or connect someplace further south. You can take that train and catch a Silver train to Florida. A thought that crossed my mind several times during the winter up there.

Each time I rode it there were many people boarding its quite a well used train.

 

[afigg]

The Rochester at 5:30am is a workable time for Rochester if you need to be to Syracuse or further east at an early time. Granted, the 4:30 is particularly early for Buffalo (and 3am is a redeye for Niagara), but perhaps they set this time based on further down the line: 7:30 in Rome, 7:50 in Utica and 9 in Amsterdam.

For other examples, there are NE Regionals which depart from WAS northward to NYP and/or to BOS at 3:15 AM, 4 AM, 4:50 AM, 5:30 AM. The first Acela starts at 5 AM, the next at 6 AM. I've taken the 5 and 6 AM Acela from WAS to NYP. The 5 AM Acela usually did get not a large crowd at WAS (typically 30-40 people maybe), but could get full after WIL at 6:11 AM and PHL at 6:30 AM to get into NYP at 7:42 AM. The really early morning corridor trains are more for people who need to get to the destination by early to mid-morning or to provide more convenient times for the stations mid-route.

Checking the passenger numbers for the NY stations in FY10, Niagara Falls had only 27K passengers total compared to 111K at Buffalo-Depew, 129K at Rochester, 139K at Syracuse. The 3:40 AM start time for the Empire service train is not for the handful of people probably getting on at Niagara Falls, but for passengers at Rochester and points east. If NY state can reduce NFL to NYP trip times by an hour or more, maybe NFL can get a slightly more reasonable departure time of 4:30 AM.

 

[Anderson]

An overnight that went "limited" or partly "sealed" on part of the route from New York to Toronto (so you don't have to wake everyone up on the way over the border) might be a workable proposition if you could find the cars for it. The biggest problem I can see is waking everybody up at 2 AM for a border check of some kind...such does not make for happy passengers.

Of course, if you have a schedule that hits the border around 11 PM or 6 AM (depending on which direction you're going), that wouldn't be too bad...I just fear passengers dealing with a badly-timed border crossing.

 

[colobok]

Checking the passenger numbers for the NY stations in FY10, Niagara Falls had only 27K passengers total compared to 111K at Buffalo-Depew, 129K at Rochester, 139K at Syracuse. The 3:40 AM start time for the Empire service train is not for the handful of people probably getting on at Niagara Falls, but for passengers at Rochester and points east. If NY state can reduce NFL to NYP trip times by an hour or more, maybe NFL can get a slightly more reasonable departure time of 4:30 AM.

Then if this train is mostly for Rochester and points east - why don't start it in Rochester?

And another train would start in Niagara Falls on a different and better time...

 

[AlanB]

Checking the passenger numbers for the NY stations in FY10, Niagara Falls had only 27K passengers total compared to 111K at Buffalo-Depew, 129K at Rochester, 139K at Syracuse. The 3:40 AM start time for the Empire service train is not for the handful of people probably getting on at Niagara Falls, but for passengers at Rochester and points east. If NY state can reduce NFL to NYP trip times by an hour or more, maybe NFL can get a slightly more reasonable departure time of 4:30 AM.

Then if this train is mostly for Rochester and points east - why don't start it in Rochester?

And another train would start in Niagara Falls on a different and better time...

Because then you'd need a crew base in Rochester, a cleaning crew, the ability to refuel the engine and rewater the cars & remove waste, and you'd need some place to actually park the train. Since all of that already exists in Niagara, it just makes more sense to run the train from there, even if there are only a few riders on the train out of that area.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Of course, if you have a schedule that hits the border around 11 PM or 6 AM (depending on which direction you're going), that wouldn't be too bad...I just fear passengers dealing with a badly-timed border crossing.

Amtrak did have such a train for a couple of years in the mid 1990’s. “The Niagara Rainbow” between New York and Toronto. It operated on weekends only. Westbound, it crossed the border at 7am and was then attached to a VIA train at Niagara Falls Ont. for Toronto. Eastbound, again, it was part of a VIA train to Niagara Falls and crossed the border at 8:45pm. Arrival in New York was at 7:45 the next morning. Sleeping cars were available. Timetables here:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19940501ne&item=0032

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19940501ne&item=0031

The biggest problem I can see is waking everybody up at 2 AM for a border check of some kind...such does not make for happy passengers.

VIA’s “Atlantic” through Maine between Montreal and Halifax was like that. Eastbound, US Customs would wake everyone at 2am in Jackman, Maine for inspection. Westbound at Vanceboro, Maine wasn’t as bad…..inspections there were usually before midnight. Eventually, the train was “sealed” across Maine.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Checking the passenger numbers for the NY stations in FY10, Niagara Falls had only 27K passengers total compared to 111K at Buffalo-Depew, 129K at Rochester, 139K at Syracuse. The 3:40 AM start time for the Empire service train is not for the handful of people probably getting on at Niagara Falls, but for passengers at Rochester and points east. If NY state can reduce NFL to NYP trip times by an hour or more, maybe NFL can get a slightly more reasonable departure time of 4:30 AM.

Then if this train is mostly for Rochester and points east - why don't start it in Rochester?

And another train would start in Niagara Falls on a different and better time...

Because then you'd need a crew base in Rochester, a cleaning crew, the ability to refuel the engine and rewater the cars & remove waste, and you'd need some place to actually park the train. Since all of that already exists in Niagara, it just makes more sense to run the train from there, even if there are only a few riders on the train out of that area.

I don't get why you think the train is such a bad idea in the first place. Its used by the folks in Niagara Falls and the Buffalo stations, sure its a little early, but its the only way to get to New York City at a decent hour from that area.

 

[Anderson]

Checking the passenger numbers for the NY stations in FY10, Niagara Falls had only 27K passengers total compared to 111K at Buffalo-Depew, 129K at Rochester, 139K at Syracuse. The 3:40 AM start time for the Empire service train is not for the handful of people probably getting on at Niagara Falls, but for passengers at Rochester and points east. If NY state can reduce NFL to NYP trip times by an hour or more, maybe NFL can get a slightly more reasonable departure time of 4:30 AM.

Then if this train is mostly for Rochester and points east - why don't start it in Rochester?

And another train would start in Niagara Falls on a different and better time...

Because then you'd need a crew base in Rochester, a cleaning crew, the ability to refuel the engine and rewater the cars & remove waste, and you'd need some place to actually park the train. Since all of that already exists in Niagara, it just makes more sense to run the train from there, even if there are only a few riders on the train out of that area.

I don't get why you think the train is such a bad idea in the first place. Its used by the folks in Niagara Falls and the Buffalo stations, sure its a little early, but its the only way to get to New York City at a decent hour from that area.

I think the better question is why, equipment permitting, you wouldn't just run it in the 234/252 slot and stick a Viewliner on it: Stretch the running time out a bit, and you get a more reasonable midnight-ish departure (and you could always allow early boarding starting at 10 PM, or move the train to Buffalo and hold it there for a while). 250/232 might also be a workable slot...there you might even be able to push the departure back to 11 PM with some "excuse padding". You'd probably need to return the Viewliner on the Lake Shore (or on some other rescheduled train) and deadhead it to Niagara, but an overnight train on that route is not insane from an operational standpoint (and, as noted, has been done before).

Edit: Yeah, I know, we're short Viewliners. Thank you, EPA, for forcing Amtrak to dump all of that heritage equipment over the dumping system.

 

[jdcnosse]

Because people want a midday arrival into New York?

Then overnight train would work better.

How do you imagine people waking up at 2am and getting to the station by 3am???

To be honest if I had to be up at 2...I probably just wouldn't sleep until I got on the train. lol

 

[Long Train Runnin']

Checking the passenger numbers for the NY stations in FY10, Niagara Falls had only 27K passengers total compared to 111K at Buffalo-Depew, 129K at Rochester, 139K at Syracuse. The 3:40 AM start time for the Empire service train is not for the handful of people probably getting on at Niagara Falls, but for passengers at Rochester and points east. If NY state can reduce NFL to NYP trip times by an hour or more, maybe NFL can get a slightly more reasonable departure time of 4:30 AM.

Then if this train is mostly for Rochester and points east - why don't start it in Rochester?

And another train would start in Niagara Falls on a different and better time...

Because then you'd need a crew base in Rochester, a cleaning crew, the ability to refuel the engine and rewater the cars & remove waste, and you'd need some place to actually park the train. Since all of that already exists in Niagara, it just makes more sense to run the train from there, even if there are only a few riders on the train out of that area.

I don't get why you think the train is such a bad idea in the first place. Its used by the folks in Niagara Falls and the Buffalo stations, sure its a little early, but its the only way to get to New York City at a decent hour from that area.

I think the better question is why, equipment permitting, you wouldn't just run it in the 234/252 slot and stick a Viewliner on it: Stretch the running time out a bit, and you get a more reasonable midnight-ish departure (and you could always allow early boarding starting at 10 PM, or move the train to Buffalo and hold it there for a while). 250/232 might also be a workable slot...there you might even be able to push the departure back to 11 PM with some "excuse padding". You'd probably need to return the Viewliner on the Lake Shore (or on some other rescheduled train) and deadhead it to Niagara, but an overnight train on that route is not insane from an operational standpoint (and, as noted, has been done before).

Edit: Yeah, I know, we're short Viewliners. Thank you, EPA, for forcing Amtrak to dump all of that heritage equipment over the dumping system.

Why?

I think most passengers (rail fans excluded) are more interested in getting somewhere. They would rather get up early and get to where there going then have some extra service that not everyone would get to take advantage of, and if you add sleeper service how would you add more food service? NY State isn't interested in spending any more money of food service thats why the shorter empire service trains (NYP-ALB) have none at all...

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Because people want a midday arrival into New York?

Then overnight train would work better.

How do you imagine people waking up at 2am and getting to the station by 3am???

*shrug* I get up at 2:30 two days a week (Tuesday and Saturday) to work a flea market 100 miles from my house. I get up at 3:30 one day a week (Thursday) and 5 or 5:30 every other day. I get out of bed at the time I need to get out of bed in order to get where I am going at the proper time. I have to get to Cowtown at 5:30. It takes me 45 minutes to stop for breakfast and refuel my truck, 45 minutes to get my butt out of bed, dressed, and awake enough to drive my truck, and an hour and thirty minutes to blast my way along I-195 and the New Jersey Turnpike at 75 mph or so. So for me to get to work on time, one must get up at 2:30. Like it or not, I gotta do it. And I'd be crazy not to do it, because Cowtown is easily the best flea market in New Jersey.

If I have to be in New York by mid day for a business meeting, I can get up and drive myself at 3:30 or take Amtrak an hour earlier, and possibly catch some of that lost shutteye without smashing my car into something. The solution to your problem, pally, is not to schedule the existing train to suit your needs- rather, it is to lobby for expanded service out of Niagara Falls.