Norfolk Amtrak schedule will allow day trips to D.C.

[John-MCPO-USN]

More news for the Hampton Roads area of Virginia (Norfolk)......John

http://hamptonroads.com/2011/10/norfolk-amtrak-schedule-will-allow-day-trips-dc

 

[Oldsmoboi]

yikes, a 5:30am departure?

 

[Anderson]

Give me until after Election Day, but I'm going to have a serious talk with one of the local delegates about trying to get this negotiated off of 164/174 and onto 84/88. Basically, something went very, very wrong at some stage of planning...164/174 were supposed to come into NPN originally. They're great as supplementary trains, but awful as the sole train into the area. The counterpart they're planning to extend is, I believe, 125 (3:55 PM out of WAS, which would give a 7:30 -ish arrival in Norfolk according to their expected schedule). That's a good timing, actually.

Failing getting them to rethink the stand-alone departure, I'm going to try and talk them into extending a bus out of NPN to meet each of the trains each way. I'd gladly opt for 125 over 95, given the choice, but 164/174 leave Norfolk too early for me to seriously consider them...with one exception, and that's if I need to catch the Lake Shore Limited. Then, I'd give it a serious look vs. taking the Silver Meteor, but only then.

Edit: Here's my logic: The DRPT folks are making the same mistake with this that they almost made with the Lynchburger, which if you'll recall was supposed to have a much later slot. CSX told them off and forced it earlier. Doing so basically opened up the Lynchburg market to the train. In this case, the same thing is happening: They're focused a bit too much on the Washington time and they're forgetting the endpoint time. Now, this might work for some of the military guys used to getting up at 4:00 AM, but for your "average Joe" this is going to be a questionable stand-alone time. They'll get business traffic (this is a decent-to-very-good business train timing, and I'm glad to see a focus on that), but they're going to lose out on everything else if they don't either leave later or run a solid Thruway option that attaches to it.

 

[VentureForth]

With all due respect, what is more important, financially speaking, than business passengers?

That being said, VRE should handle commuters.

 

[Anderson]

With all due respect, what is more important, financially speaking, than business passengers?

That being said, VRE should handle commuters.

Actually, non-business travelers are a substantial share of business. Also, I'm thinking that it's good for one subset of business travelers (military folks) but not for another subset. Also, I think they're passing up a potentially non-trivial Hampton Roads-to-Richmond market.

Edit: The VRE is only north of Fredericksburg. South of there, you did have a VRE bus from Richmond, but the VRE will likely never go beyond Richmond.

 

[afigg]

Edit: Here's my logic: The DRPT folks are making the same mistake with this that they almost made with the Lynchburger, which if you'll recall was supposed to have a much later slot. CSX told them off and forced it earlier. Doing so basically opened up the Lynchburg market to the train. In this case, the same thing is happening: They're focused a bit too much on the Washington time and they're forgetting the endpoint time. Now, this might work for some of the military guys used to getting up at 4:00 AM, but for your "average Joe" this is going to be a questionable stand-alone time. They'll get business traffic (this is a decent-to-very-good business train timing, and I'm glad to see a focus on that), but they're going to lose out on everything else if they don't either leave later or run a solid Thruway option that attaches to it.

I pretty much agree with you. Going for the really early time for a specific market subset at the detriment of everyone else who would want to take the train is not a good way to start the service. #84 would still leave Norfolk rather early, at around 6-6:30 AM, but it still works for the DC day trip military guys. If they are going to the Pentagon or Crystal City, they are going to get off in Alexandria and take the Metro. #84 gets to Alexandria at 9:50 AM, still a useful time for a day trip. But VA planners are obviously fixated on the military and contractor crowd traveling to DC because that is an easy group to visualize while the rest of the customer base is going to be far more mixed in their destinations and reasons for taking the train.

Getting good schedule times for the 3 trains to/from Norfolk using extended Regionals is going to be a challenge because the WAS to NYP section drives the schedule. The ideal schedule, IMHO, would be an early morning departure, mid-late morning departure, and then a mid-late afternoon departure from Norfolk. They should also be thinking about NYC to DC to Norfolk travelers who may want to get to Norfolk by mid day to early afternoon.

 

[Anderson]

Afigg,

You've hit the nail on the head. Given the budget to do so, I'd run 84 into Norfolk and 174 into Newport News. I suspect that's where the second-stage plan is (i.e. to run both trains in) and to get another train.

Running down the candidate list for NB trains (those showing up on the list NB from RVR), you have:

86 (Depart RVR 6:00 AM, Arrive WAS 8:15 AM)

174 (Depart RVR 7:00 AM, Arrive WAS 9:30 AM)

84 (Depart RVR 8:00 AM, Arrive WAS 10:15 AM)

94 (Depart RVR 11:04 AM, Arrive WAS 1:35 PM) Currently NPN at 9:15 AM

66 (Depart RVR 6:35 PM, Arrive WAS 8:58 PM) Currently NPN at 4:55 PM

176 is taken as the Lynchburger

For an evening time, you have options such as 198 (departs WAS NB at 8:45) or 188 (departs WAS NB at 7:10 PM); given the choice, I'd suggest 198 (8 or 8:15 PM arrival in WAS would translate into a 4:30-ish departure from Norfolk, which would be ideal on the business side. For a late® morning departure, 186 presents itself (assuming 3.5 hours plus half an hour hold in WAS for an equipment change, your 1 PM departure would translate into a 9 AM departure from Norfolk).

On the existing RVR-WAS trains that aren't re-routed:

86 is unworkable for anything further south than RVR IMHO, unless you're basically doing an equipment move.

174 is workable alongside another train, but you risk losing all non-military traffic without a good later train.

84 would be good, though I might divert it into NPN alongside 174 into Norfolk (if Amtrak persists in that decision) or vice-versa.

 

[gatelouse]

Presuming the majority of passengers for the new Tidewater service will originate out of Norfolk than Newport News, is there any consideration being given to shuttle trains that run RVR-RVM-WBG-NPN as the Hartford/Sprintfield shuttles do now? Given the limited number of trains available to extend, a shuttle train could make sense and make more departures available to both sides of the water. Keep the existing through trains to NPN to serve those who prefer or need the one-seat ride, and run shuttles to provide additional departure times.

My real question is whether a shuttle train would be cost-prohibitive at this point.

 

[Anderson]

Well, you could probably do three turns Norfolk-Richmond-Norfolk (or NPN-RVR/RVM-NPN) with a push-pull setup, assuming you were willing to screw with scheduling. The problem is the "cross-platform transfer", which has a habit of losing something like 40-50% of riders. Now, on something this short it might work whereby you could "force" the connection (i.e. make it a nominal 15-minute connection but hold the northbound Regional from RVR/RVM No Matter What), but I don't know what would ultimately happen there cost-wise.

Assuming that you could run one 4-5 car consist as the shuttle (I'm thinking 3-4 Coach cars, 1 BC, and possibly a cafe...though a 90-minute run probably wouldn't justify more than a vending machine, especially if you get some sort of "faster" food option either in RVM or nearby), I'm wondering what the cost would be...if it's a 90-minute trip, which they seem to be gunning for, you'd probably be able to do two turns with one crew (6 hours) and one turn with another (3 hours). And a shuttle could link up to 174 (5:20 AM out of Norfolk, 6:50 into Richmond), turn in time to run a link to 94 (9:20 out of Norfolk), pick up folks from 67 (11:00 AM out of Richmond would offer an hour-long layover and the train would be back in Norfolk by 12:45 at the latest), and then return again in time to link with the Palmetto or with 66 and then "sweep" 125 and/or 99/83/93.

 

[gatelouse]

That's a sobering stat that the cross-platform transfer loses so many riders. (And since it's likely to be low-platform with stairs, even more difficult for those with lots of luggage or mobility impairments.) Hence the need to keep a couple of through trains to both NPN and Norfolk.

IIRC, the Springfield shuttles are typically two coaches with no cafe, running push-pull, and a running time of about 90 minutes. Somebody correct me if I got the car count or trip time wrong. So it seems to me that we can get a few extra frequencies up quickly if the host railroads are willing to accept them. Again, the idea is to supplement, not replace, the through trains.

As for me, and many others on this board, I'll take the transfer in a heartbeat. Extra 100 points, plus bonuses!

 

[trainviews]

Another problem with the very early departure is that Harbor Part totally loses its designed function as an intermodal hub. The first Tide light rail doesn't arrive until about 6.15...

As for transfers, where does the 40 % stat come from? If it is based on the notoriously unreliable LD's where people typically travel with a lot of luggage, that sounds likely. But most travellers to/from Norfolk will be day travellers with only a laptop and a small bag/briefcase or maybe a weekend bag. If - and that is a big if - both connecting trains can be run with a decent OTP, then cross platform transfers should be as little of a problem as it is anywhere else in the world. But if a transfer either includes missing your connection half the times due to late arrivals or a long wait at the transfer station in order to avoid this, then ridiers will drop the service.

 

[NY Penn]

What about splitting a train between NPN and Norfolk (for example 84 and its counterpart)?

 

[jis]

What about splitting a train between NPN and Norfolk (for example 84 and its counterpart)?

Amtrak splitting/joining a train several times a day? That would be a sight to behold!

 

[afigg]

What about splitting a train between NPN and Norfolk (for example 84 and its counterpart)?

Way too complicated and makes the combining of the 2 trains on the northward trip dependent on both route segments being on time. Is splitting a train at RVR even feasible?

As for a shuttle train on the Newport News route north of the river, the major restriction in the near term is whether CSX would allow any additional passenger trains on the (slow) route without major capacity upgrades. CSX uses that line for coal shipments and coal exports are up, so CSX traffic on that line is likely increasing.

In the long term, a shuttle or connecting train would likely only be a viable concept when all Amtrak trains are rerouted to stop at the Main Street Station in downtown Richmond with the Main Street Station becoming a major hub for Richmond. Add station stops at the 2 airports on the Richmond to Newport News route for local/regional passenger traffic and implement the Newport News plans for a new station at a downtown location. Then start a mutliple daily frequency train that loops back and forth between Richmond and Newport News. But the rerouting of all Amtrak north-south and Norfolk traffic through the Main Street Station requires significant funding for and construction of the Southeast HSR project. That will take a decade or longer.

 

[spidersfan351]

What about splitting a train between NPN and Norfolk (for example 84 and its counterpart)?

Way too complicated and makes the combining of the 2 trains on the northward trip dependent on both route segments being on time. Is splitting a train at RVR even feasible?

As for a shuttle train on the Newport News route north of the river, the major restriction in the near term is whether CSX would allow any additional passenger trains on the (slow) route without major capacity upgrades. CSX uses that line for coal shipments and coal exports are up, so CSX traffic on that line is likely increasing.

- To answer your question from a strictly factual basis, I believe it would be possible with the new #4 track at RVR to do a simple switch move. The problems are that depending on the time, you may have other trains sitting on this siding, and these moves take time and some lead space from CSX, both of which are at a premium in the morning.

As to the Main Street Station to Newport News stretch of the Huntington Division, I believe CSX is actually presently working to double track this entire main as it was in the C&O days. In a nutshell, the coal traffic in and empties out are just too much for the one track plus siding plan they've tried. Frankly, Amtrak hasn't made this easier, but I think CSX is coming back to the conclusion that it makes more sense to be able to stack the trains up than to fool with sidings and weaving traffic through.

Finally, as to the question of business passengers, from having worked a bit on the planning stages of the Lynchburger, I've learned that the business traveller is a key demographic to the state from what amounts to a political reason. Basically, they want to justify the millions of dollars they spend by saying it allows businesses and their employees efficient transport to DC without the need to relocate to DC/NOVA. This is one area both sides of the aisle agree on - as opposed to other passengers, which begins to sound like "socialized rail" or Europe to some less receptive ears. You would be surprised (or maybe you already know) how much emphasis Governors like to make on bringing new jobs and keeping old ones to the state. They are willing to plunk down a lot of cash if they can point to real things like this, as opposed to simple ridership numbers of retirees to see their families, etc.

 

[Anderson]

spidersfan,

I definitely get the political point on business travelers. I guess that my concern, phrased a bit better, is this: For a borderline intrastate trip, how many businesses are going to be thrilled about forcing their folks to get up at 4:00(-ish) AM to drive to downtown Norfolk? At some point, convenience trumps cost and folks will either want to start on the road a bit later and just drive to DC (not fun, but potentially more convenient) or drive to RVR and grab the 80-series train instead (splits the difference on time and convenience: You're not driving into Washington and you're not getting up quite as early). Your average businessman, even in Hampton Roads, does not likely keep to a Marine's sleep schedule.

The biggest problem I see with a split train is actually on-board logistics: Either people will somehow wind up in the wrong car or one side or another will get the BC car and you'll get shouting over "Why did [NPN/NFK] get BC service when all we get is coach?!?" Mind you, a solution might be to run a full BC one way and a half-cafe half-BC car the other, but I'm not quite sure you'd avoid a partly empty BC car in the process at this point.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I travel alot on business and most of it is by plane, but I am often up at 3-4AM to catch an early flight out of JAX so I can get to a morning or noon meeting. I would have no problem getting up early for a 5AM train departure. Unlike a plane where you have to go through all the security and are wide awake by the time you get to your very small seat, on a train you can relax and sleep in the comfortable wide, reclining seat. I am glad to see Norfolk getting passenger service again. I rode N&W's Pocahantas in and out of Norfolk in 1970....great train....N&W had excellent dining cars right up to the end with fried apples served as an option with all breakfasts. I am sure that eventually there will an 8AM departure added to the 5AM one.

 

[Anderson]

I travel alot on business and most of it is by plane, but I am often up at 3-4AM to catch an early flight out of JAX so I can get to a morning or noon meeting. I would have no problem getting up early for a 5AM train departure. Unlike a plane where you have to go through all the security and are wide awake by the time you get to your very small seat, on a train you can relax and sleep in the comfortable wide, reclining seat. I am glad to see Norfolk getting passenger service again. I rode N&W's Pocahantas in and out of Norfolk in 1970....great train....N&W had excellent dining cars right up to the end with fried apples served as an option with all breakfasts. I am sure that eventually there will an 8AM departure added to the 5AM one.

1) I'm jealous.

2) Part of the jam here is that the train is getting you into

3) The other thing...I think the 5 AM and 8 AM departures will pair well together, as will the (likely) eventual addition of an evening departure (to serve folks doing the trip "backwards", that is visiting Norfolk from either Richmond or DC) if the service works. The problem, at least as I see it, is that you're going to have a limited market for this as a stand-alone departure. That's been my criticism from the get-go: It's a dubious "starter time" for a service.

Briefly addressing another service bit: On the Peninsula Subdivision of CSX, I know that the sudden spike in coal traffic killed talk of a commuter line from Newport News to about Toano. How bad is the crowding along that subdivision? I remember having to wait like 15 or 20 minutes for 67 to pass one time when my train was late coming out of NPN on my way to WAS, so I'm certain it's single track from the eastern side of town to close to RVR. At the same time, judging by how often I hear the whistles blow (I live a block and a half from the tracks...it's a long block and a half, but I can hear most train whistles from my yard), it feels like there's not more than 1-2 trains per hour on the line (and I could probably get some hard numbers next time I spend a few hours in my yard, since the trains have to blow their whistle for Harpersville Road). Also, what do you mean by "Amtrak hasn't made [presumably fixing the crowding problems] easier"?