Northeast Regional discussion 2022-2024 H1

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It absolutely takes time to turn the seats. These aren’t modern Japanese trains where the seats can all turn simultaneously at the push of a button.

An employee must flip the seats, row by row, across 8 cars. In what world does that not take time?
I remember on the Pascack Valley Line on the Erie (now Metro-North) the conductor going through and flipping the seats preparatory to getting to the end of the line.
Also, the old cars on the Staten Island Rapid Transit back in the 60s, flipping the seats at Tottenville and St George.
 
Without being too cynical, it would be really interesting to learn where the equipment is coming from for added daily departures (if that ever actually happens).
 
So in the NEC at BOS and WAS, what are they going to do now ? Cut off the lead engine on a stub track, hitch another at the rear end, and head back eventually, while the inbound engine is trapped at the bumper block until it pulls away, to be the next locomotive to pull another train away on another track ?

If so, cutting all the cables and hoses and reconnecting at the other end takes the time that they spent wying. All in all, I don't see the improvement.
This is exactly how the Metroliners, with Amfleet equipment, operated in Wash. DC for many years....
 
Passengers turn it whichever way they want. Actually on alternate rows you can even turn them facing the window. I am not sure that the crew actually turns them at all except at terminal stations. As it turns out, though no one really stops them from doing so, passengers do not turn seats too often except for when there is a group of four, or experiencing the novelty of sitting in a seat facing the window once in a while.

It is only in the 2x2 executive class where seats turn. In the 3x2 standard Chair Cars I am not sure that the 3 side seats turn. But I must admit I have not looked at them closely.
I miss the days when the Seats in the Superliners Sightseer Lounges could be pivoted by the passengers while sitting in the seats.

Supposedly they were all fixed in place due to broken hardware on the seats, which required frequent Maintainence, and Safety concerns??
 
This is exactly how the Metroliners, with Amfleet equipment, operated in Wash. DC for many years....
Didn't they do something like that at Penn Station in NY too? I had seen two Metroliners pull in at the same platform one behind the other. A loco hitches onto the west end of the one at the west end of the platform. Its loco at the east end detaches and attaches to the on at the east end of the platform, and the loco that brought in the one at the east end detaches and goers off to the storage track to repeat the process as the next two arrive.
 
So in the NEC at BOS and WAS, what are they going to do now ? Cut off the lead engine on a stub track, hitch another at the rear end, and head back eventually, while the inbound engine is trapped at the bumper block until it pulls away, to be the next locomotive to pull another train away on another track ?

If so, cutting all the cables and hoses and reconnecting at the other end takes the time that they spent wying. All in all, I don't see the improvement.
Probably what I've seen them do in Washington when they've had to turn a late train quickly. It comes in, as usual, locomotive first. Then, while they're cleaning out the cars and such, they uncouple the locomotive and roll in new one in at the other end facing out of the station. They hook that up, and then the outbound train is good to go. After it leaves, then the old locomotive can pull out and head for the yard to wait for the next train. Of course, this meant that the consist it reversed from the usual, in the case of Washington it means that Business class and the Quiet car are at the front of the outbound train. But if they do it on a regular basis, they will just keep the business class and Quiet car at the south end of the train running in both directions, so it's at the back of the train when running northbound and at the front of the train when running southbound. This is just what the Acela does, except that the Acela has power cars at both ends, so they don't need to fuss around with locomotives.
 
Honestly curious, why would they do it that way? There’s fundamentally no reason there couldn’t be a consistent row where the seating direction changes. Having the direction change in different rows for different cars is just asking for problems for no real reason.

On all of the midwest/West Coast routes that have 50/50 seating, they basically use the same seat row to flip directions.

The layout of the Coaches has changed because of bike racks and luggage towers being added in some cars. I’ve seen some Amfleet’s with half the seats backwards and another car on the same set with about 2/3’s of the seats backwards. I’m not sure exactly how this happens. But it does.
 
Probably what I've seen them do in Washington when they've had to turn a late train quickly. It comes in, as usual, locomotive first. Then, while they're cleaning out the cars and such, they uncouple the locomotive and roll in new one in at the other end facing out of the station. They hook that up, and then the outbound train is good to go. After it leaves, then the old locomotive can pull out and head for the yard to wait for the next train. Of course, this meant that the consist it reversed from the usual, in the case of Washington it means that Business class and the Quiet car are at the front of the outbound train. But if they do it on a regular basis, they will just keep the business class and Quiet car at the south end of the train running in both directions, so it's at the back of the train when running northbound and at the front of the train when running southbound. This is just what the Acela does, except that the Acela has power cars at both ends, so they don't need to fuss around with locomotives.
Yikes, I didn't think about the business class and quiet cars changing position based on direction of travel. That will take a long time for passengers to get used to. It's pretty consistent across the board these days that station agents announce that they are the last two cars of the train, and passengers still get confused and board wherever.
 
Yikes, I didn't think about the business class and quiet cars changing position based on direction of travel. That will take a long time for passengers to get used to. It's pretty consistent across the board these days that station agents announce that they are the last two cars of the train, and passengers still get confused and board wherever.
It wasn't that long ago that Business Class and the Quiet Car were the first two cars on the train. People got used to that change pretty quickly, and I think they'll adapt once again.
 
Didn't they do something like that at Penn Station in NY too? I had seen two Metroliners pull in at the same platform one behind the other. A loco hitches onto the west end of the one at the west end of the platform. Its loco at the east end detaches and attaches to the on at the east end of the platform, and the loco that brought in the one at the east end detaches and goers off to the storage track to repeat the process as the next two arrive.
Yes, especially with the first arrival of the day from DC. It had a short turn in NYP. They would either run the engine around or use the Station protect. They also had a set of cleaners who would clean the train and turn the seats in the dark. Later arrivals started going around the SSYD loop to simplify some of the work.
 
I think their intention may be to lock the seats in place and then save on maintenance by not maintaining the mechanism that enables seats to be turned. Reduction in cost of maintenance. When NJT tried to remove the seat flipping feature in the cars that had it, they also proceeded to remove the turning levers. So I am guessing based on that.
Could be but as I had mentioned before on this thread the Pennsylvania RR had reversible seats that were mostly fully operative in the 1960's on cars that were built in the 1920's. And these were used frequently used on their commuter lines.
 
One thing that is a head scratcher for me is why it is not possible to have seats that turn in the much vaunted First World countries when India is able to deploy turning seats with power plugs and USB plugs in seat armrests on the new Vande Bharat Express articulated sets. Is the Third World really becoming more technically capable than the First World as time marches on? I have difficulty believing that so I would tend to ascribe this to rank laziness and misplaced priorities.
I don't think laziness is the issue. I think it is economics: bean counters in middle and upper management looking at their spreadsheets and being penny wise and pound foolish. Upper management and, in the case of Amtrak, Congress, pushing them to spend as little as possible and driving them to false economies, especially when trying to balance spending with mandates like "buy American". So they look at things like seats (both the quality of seats in the new coaches and the labor of flipping the seats when they turn around trains) and meals and maintenance as places to save a few pennies, even though it costs them millions in increased ridership.
 
A trains article from yesterday provides a little more of a hint of how they will speed things up and why they are doing this. Apparently a certain amount of train sets will indeed be operating push pull with the newly converted HHP8 NPCUs on the other end and will do platform turns. This will enable the additional round trips and is why the seats are being changed. Apparently this change will also be made to the current Acela a bit later this year. (The new Acela will be like this already.) it was rumored the converted NPCUs were mainly going to be used for push pull service in areas that are currently push pull to replace aging and problematic metro liner cab cars but it sounds like their first assignment will be on the corridor to enable these frequencies.
 
A trains article from yesterday provides a little more of a hint of how they will speed things up and why they are doing this. Apparently a certain amount of train sets will indeed be operating push pull with the newly converted HHP8 NPCUs on the other end and will do platform turns. This will enable the additional round trips and is why the seats are being changed. Apparently this change will also be made to the current Acela a bit later this year. (The new Acela will be like this already.) it was rumored the converted NPCUs were mainly going to be used for push pull service in areas that are currently push pull to replace aging and problematic metro liner cab cars but it sounds like their first assignment will be on the corridor to enable these frequencies.
That makes a little more sense. It would be nice if they would at least flip the seats in Business Class (First Class Acela).
 
A trains article from yesterday provides a little more of a hint of how they will speed things up and why they are doing this. Apparently a certain amount of train sets will indeed be operating push pull with the newly converted HHP8 NPCUs on the other end and will do platform turns. This will enable the additional round trips and is why the seats are being changed. Apparently this change will also be made to the current Acela a bit later this year. (The new Acela will be like this already.) it was rumored the converted NPCUs were mainly going to be used for push pull service in areas that are currently push pull to replace aging and problematic metro liner cab cars but it sounds like their first assignment will be on the corridor to enable these frequencies.
In addition to making short turns easier, perhaps it would make it easier to open new terminal stations. That would be both in cost and in negotiations with freight railroads to avoid interference, from the freight point of view. The new NPN that is due to open in April or May has both a new wye long enough to turn a full train, just north of the station, and a new siding for service half a mile south. Like Savannah and Mobile, the state and the freight railroad have a joint interest in boosting the seaport, in competition with other ports. There's a lot of revenue and a lot of cost in a seaport, as well as jobs and other economic benefits. It's large enough to be a major interest in state policy. The state rail plans describe relevant grants. In states supporting pax rail, cooperation is the byword, not conflict, at least publicly. Cooperation means investing money.

So perhaps there's some strategy like that to rear-facing seats at Amtrak, or not. The lore among commuters is it's safer in the rare accidents, if I recall correctly. Seems like a compromise, as you see when people are chosing seats.
 
A trains article from yesterday provides a little more of a hint of how they will speed things up and why they are doing this. Apparently a certain amount of train sets will indeed be operating push pull with the newly converted HHP8 NPCUs on the other end and will do platform turns. This will enable the additional round trips and is why the seats are being changed. Apparently this change will also be made to the current Acela a bit later this year. (The new Acela will be like this already.) it was rumored the converted NPCUs were mainly going to be used for push pull service in areas that are currently push pull to replace aging and problematic metro liner cab cars but it sounds like their first assignment will be on the corridor to enable these frequencies.
There will be
6 double ended sets weekdays
4 double ended sets on Sundays, in addition to 121/122 which is a Keystone set with extra cars
No double ended sets on Saturdays
 
Bidirectional sets in general lead to more efficient use of equipment as a result of the quicker turns possible, That is why almost all commuter trains are bidirectional sets. Good to see Amtrak actually doing that even before they get the Airos. As for whether they flip or turn seats or not is a somewhat separate issue. There are plenty of double ended train operations in the world with turnable seats that are actually turned. And then again there are plenty others where they are fixed seats. The latter reduces the number of parts that need maintenance attention.
 
IMO this insistence that it will allow more trains is a wakeup call. If Amtrak is so short of passenger ready revenue cars even on the NEC then management's cost cutting is being shown up. When the FY 2022 budget was signed Amtrak did not start hiring persons to fill in spots especially maintenance and operating persons,. It was summer 2022 before any substantial hiring started but even as late as summer 2023 the same not enough hiring was still in effect. Have no idea if this summer will have enough personnel.

Still why couldn't Siemens construct train seats that rotate like JNR? That may actually allow for more rapid cleaning?

Now to give credit where it is due the T&E + OBS persons may work more actual trains and not have as much non-operating paid dead time.
 
Alright. This is new for me. Last week I bought a business class ticket for a future journey. Well, I just received an updated receipt and new ticket but, nothing about the trip has changed -- same train, same departure & arrival, same day, same seat.

The seat map has updated to the new layout and the only thing I can think of is that the changed seat map generated the new issuance of receipt and ticket. Scratchin' my head.
 
Alright. This is new for me. Last week I bought a business class ticket for a future journey. Well, I just received an updated receipt and new ticket but, nothing about the trip has changed -- same train, same departure & arrival, same day, same seat.

The seat map has updated to the new layout and the only thing I can think of is that the changed seat map generated the new issuance of receipt and ticket. Scratchin' my head.
This has happened to me in the past for no discernible reason at all. So I just made sure that the reservation was still there and then rolled with the flow.

IMO this insistence that it will allow more trains is a wakeup call. If Amtrak is so short of passenger ready revenue cars even on the NEC then management's cost cutting is being shown up.
Even if there was no shortage of equipment it would still allow more trains to be operated with the same set of available equipment if dwell times at terminal stations can be reduced. I am familiar with operations elsewhere where they have dwell times at terminal where the equipment turns, as low as ten minutes. I don't think Amtrak will get there, but it is done. Train that requires full cleaning and restocking of meals for the entire train takes as little as 50 minutes. It can be done if there is will and need.
 
IMO this insistence that it will allow more trains is a wakeup call. If Amtrak is so short of passenger ready revenue cars even on the NEC then management's cost cutting is being shown up. When the FY 2022 budget was signed Amtrak did not start hiring persons to fill in spots especially maintenance and operating persons,. It was summer 2022 before any substantial hiring started but even as late as summer 2023 the same not enough hiring was still in effect. Have no idea if this summer will have enough personnel.

Still why couldn't Siemens construct train seats that rotate like JNR? That may actually allow for more rapid cleaning?

Now to give credit where it is due the T&E + OBS persons may work more actual trains and not have as much non-operating paid dead time.
I doubt Siemens makes any seats. Most transportation seating whether it be bus train or plane are selected by the purchaser from compatible offerings from a group of companies in that business.
 
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