Northwest mudslide season begins

[zephyr17]

Sacramento River Canyon between Dunsmuir and Redding sometimes has problems, but nothing near as often as BNSF between Seattle and Everett.

 

[Phil S]

Here's an article from the Everett Herald on the BNSF mudslide zone. No easy fix. Cost's $$$

http://www.heraldnet...blocking-trains

Thanks for the link. Still makes no sense to me. Storm water runoff should go into storm drains that channel the water elsewhere. Did the counties not require that a stormdrain system be built? Or is there one in place and it just dumps water onto the cliffs? If so this is a failure by govt to properly regulate development, caused perhaps by inadequate funding (ie. tax cuts). But it's be nice to have some actual info.

 

[Blackwolf]

@Blackwolf - I'm taking the southbound Coast Starlight from Seattle to the East Bay on Saturday night which will put me right in the thick of one of the storms in far northern CA... do mudslides cause disruptions in the mountainous parts of that route during rains like this? What do you think is the chance it'll be canceled and I'll be bussed from somewhere?

All I can offer for real advice is to be flexible, but enjoy your trip all the same. Yes, that is right about the time the strongest of these three major storms is forecast to be impacting Southern Oregon and Northern California.

IF a problem occurred, my guess for a likely candidate would be in the Cascade region. There are numerous slide areas there which have impacted the Coast Starlight route in years past. It really is a crapshoot to try and say what may happen because there are so many variables. In a contrast to mudslides, there are also flood warnings in effect for all of NorCal from the Bay Area north. It's winter-time, and contrary to popular belief, we do get all four seasons in good ol' Sunny California!

 

[Jacob Goes By Jack]

IF a problem occurred, my guess for a likely candidate would be in the Cascade region.

Where do you mean by the Cascade region? Just WA/OR/northern CA in general, or are you talking about a more specific area?

 

[Nathanael]

Here's an article from the Everett Herald on the BNSF mudslide zone. No easy fix. Cost's $$$

http://www.heraldnet...blocking-trains

Thanks for the link. Still makes no sense to me. Storm water runoff should go into storm drains that channel the water elsewhere. Did the counties not require that a stormdrain system be built? Or is there one in place and it just dumps water onto the cliffs? If so this is a failure by govt to properly regulate development, caused perhaps by inadequate funding (ie. tax cuts). But it's be nice to have some actual info.

Remember, these were rural counties when a lot of the development was done, and the stormwater management laws only started coming into effect in the 1970s in most parts of the country, and later in many. I don't have the facts, but it's perfectly possible the counties didn't get around to regulating runoff until well after development had caused the problems.

 

[zephyr17]

Here's an article from the Everett Herald on the BNSF mudslide zone. No easy fix. Cost's $$$

http://www.heraldnet...blocking-trains

Thanks for the link. Still makes no sense to me. Storm water runoff should go into storm drains that channel the water elsewhere. Did the counties not require that a stormdrain system be built? Or is there one in place and it just dumps water onto the cliffs? If so this is a failure by govt to properly regulate development, caused perhaps by inadequate funding (ie. tax cuts). But it's be nice to have some actual info.

Remember, these were rural counties when a lot of the development was done, and the stormwater management laws only started coming into effect in the 1970s in most parts of the country, and later in many. I don't have the facts, but it's perfectly possible the counties didn't get around to regulating runoff until well after development had caused the problems.

The problem areas, like around Shilsole and Mukilteo, were pretty much developed by the 1970s.

 

[Phil S]

Here's an article from the Everett Herald on the BNSF mudslide zone. No easy fix. Cost's $$$

http://www.heraldnet...blocking-trains

Thanks for the link. Still makes no sense to me. Storm water runoff should go into storm drains that channel the water elsewhere. Did the counties not require that a stormdrain system be built? Or is there one in place and it just dumps water onto the cliffs? If so this is a failure by govt to properly regulate development, caused perhaps by inadequate funding (ie. tax cuts). But it's be nice to have some actual info.

Remember, these were rural counties when a lot of the development was done, and the stormwater management laws only started coming into effect in the 1970s in most parts of the country, and later in many. I don't have the facts, but it's perfectly possible the counties didn't get around to regulating runoff until well after development had caused the problems.

The problem areas, like around Shilsole and Mukilteo, were pretty much developed by the 1970s.

Google maps shows that the vast majority of the houses are on multi-acre lots extending from the road almost to the cliffedges. The houses are all right near the roads. I recall my friends' house had a gravel driveway maybe 70-80 ft long. My guess is that there isn't s single stormdrain anywhere along the whole cliff system, at least not for the rersidential areas. I Googled King County and there are no storm water system maps. They now have a stormwater management plan, as of 2012, which calls for at least having the information collected in the next 3 years.The plan nowhere mentions the word "rail" of "cliff".

A better bet for info looks like the following: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/projects/rail/slidemanagement/ If you haven;t looked at the site and are interested in this issue, it's worth a peek. I'll e-mail Melanie, the listed contact person, see if I can get some more info. But it really doesn't seem that anything is being done to even determine if the topside development is indeed part of the problem.

 

[EB_OBS]

Well there's a brand new mud-slide / blocking event at MP 29.3 BN Scenic Sub, near Mukilteo.

48 hour moratorium in effect until 10:24PM 12/2/12.

Sorry folks.

 

[CHamilton]

As EB_OBS said:

Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_CascadesAmtrak Cascades train 513 & 510 Replaced By Bus Service Vancouver BC - Seattle.

 

[CHamilton]

Once again, there's some poor communication. The Amtrak_Cascades Twitter account posted earlier this afternoon

3:20pm Amtrak Cascades trains operating normally, with no significant delays.

but an AP story on the Seattle Times website says

A Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway spokesman says runs of passenger trains between Seattle and Everett have been halted because of mudslides.
Spokesman Gus Melonas says passenger train runs will be on pause until Monday, unless conditions improve.

Heavy rain soaked the Puget Sound region on Friday and Saturday, pushing mud, rocks and debris onto track sensors.

Melonas say [sic] freight trains continue operating.

Passenger train service has been significantly disrupted between Seattle and Everett over the past ten days due to rain.

Commuters can check soundtransit.org for updates.

But there's nothing on the Sound Transit website that I can find. With communication like this, train riders really have no idea what's going on.

 

[CHamilton]

Well, this is clear, at least. Of course, there are no passenger trains on that line at 4:00am...

Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_CascadesService between Seattle & Everett suspended until 4:00am 12/5/12 due to mudslide. Alternate transportation will be provided.

 

[CHamilton]

Did the Cascades tweet get the date wrong?

More Seattle-Everett passenger train runs halted

Runs of passenger trains between Seattle and Everett will be canceled until Tuesday morning after more mudslides fell this weekend, a Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway spokesman said.
Closing the tracks all say Monday marks at least the seventh day of closures for Amtrak and Sound Transit trains along this corridor since Thanksgiving, spokesman Gus Melonas said. Passenger train service is now scheduled to restart at 4 a.m. Tuesday, he said.

Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railway had estimated the closure of tracks to Amtrak and Sound Transit trains would end on Monday, but more mudslide damaged occurred overnight Saturday as heavy rain soaked the Puget Sound region, pushing mud, rocks, trees and debris onto the tracks.

The downpours have soaked loosened dirt on the slopes - some as high as 150 feet - along the track that runs between the two cities.

...

Freight trains will continue operating because their sturdier build, flexible schedule and don't carry passengers, Melonas said.

"The major difference between passenger trains as opposed to rail car full of lumber is the human factor. We're not going to put the public in harm's way," he said.

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Did the Cascades tweet get the date wrong?

More Seattle-Everett passenger train runs halted

...

Freight trains will continue operating because their sturdier build, flexible schedule and don't carry passengers, Melonas said.

"The major difference between passenger trains as opposed to rail car full of lumber is the human factor. We're not going to put the public in harm's way," he said.

So they don't give a darn about their crews then.

 

[Blackwolf]

Frustration. Word of the season. Again.

 

[CHamilton]

So they don't give a darn about their crews then.

An SCA I had on the EB grumbled about that when passengers from train 7 were bussed from Everett to Seattle, but the crew stayed on the train.

 

[josuelowe]

I have a question regarding the northwest mudslide season. In addition to the problems north of Seattle, there have been problems from time to time along Puget Sound south of Pt. Defiance. With the completion of the Sounder to Lakewood, WA, would Amtrak reroute their trains over the new Sounder line and Tacoma Rail tracks through Dupont if there were again problems with mudslides in this area?

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

That's odd the status map shows 516 as operating tonight, left MVW 11 minutes late and the Amtrak status page shows 516 7 minutes late out of Bellingham.

 

[CHamilton]

That's odd the status map shows 516 as operating tonight, left MVW 11 minutes late and the Amtrak status page shows 516 7 minutes late out of Bellingham.

I understand that they were running the train as far as Everett, then busing from there to Seattle.

 

[anir dendroica]

So they don't give a darn about their crews then.

An SCA I had on the EB grumbled about that when passengers from train 7 were bussed from Everett to Seattle, but the crew stayed on the train.

Mud, (small) rocks, and trees are fairly forgiving compared to other things that sometimes collide with trains (semi trucks come to mind). I have to assume that at slow speed (~20 mph through slide zones?) the risk to life and limb from even a direct slide impact is fairly low for anyone on a train. Plenty of potential for equipment damage though.

Mark

 

[TimePeace]

Well guess I get to enjoy the opulent luxury of a bus.

Hey, those new high-speed buses are nice!

http://www.theonion....with-hig,18473/

Hahahahah!

 

[CHamilton]

Amtrak, too, I assume. Sigh.

Slide cancels Sounder service to Mukilteo, Everett through ThursdayPosted on December 4, 2012 at 3:38 PM

Northline Sounder service to Mukilteo and Everett is canceled through Thursday morning due to a mudslide that occurred before noon Tuesday between Edmonds and Mukilteo.

Sounder service between King Street Station and Edmonds will operate as scheduled.

If no other mudslides occur, Sounder service to Mukilteo and Everett will resume for the evening commute on Thursday, Dec. 6.

 

[CHamilton]

The state and BNSF hope a $16 million federal grant will help ease mudslides along the train tracks between Everett and Seattle. (WSDOT image)

Temporary fix but no solution in sight for Sounder's mudslide disruptionsWith Sound Transit and Amtrak forced to cancel service again between Seattle and Everett because of mudslides, state officials say they're doing all they can to slow the frequent slides. Despite millions of dollars, they admit there's only so much they can do.

The latest slide comes just two weeks after mudslides covered the tracks in a number of places, halting passenger service for the entire Thanksgiving week.

The problem is both the steep hillsides and the stormwater runoff pouring down from the areas above, says Ron Pate, Cascades Operations Manager with the Washington Department of Transportation.

The Federal Railroad Administration has kicked in $16 million for the Washington State Department of Transportation and Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad, owner of the tracks, to help brace the slopes.

"It's not going to fix the whole slide problem, but what we're going to target is more fence catchments of slides to prevent it from ending up on the tracks," Pate says.

The money will also be used to improve storm water containment to help catch and divert some of the runoff pouring from the hillsides above.

"We think that by controlling that storm water and having better drainage facilities that should improve it significantly."

The state and BNSF spent the summer clearing culverts and drains, removing brush and debris, building new ditches and reshaping some of the hillsides, Pate says.

But even with all those measures, they'll never be able to completely prevent slides and closures because the hillsides are too steep and at times, there's simply too much water.

 

[CHamilton]

Not the usual location, south of Seattle/Tacoma this time. So the Cascades from SEA-PDX and the CS will be affected through, I assume, at least Tuesday night.

Slide hits BNSF tracks in Nisqually areaOLYMPIA, Wash. —

Heavy rain and winds caused a mudslide that hit Burlington Northern Santa Fe tracks about 1:30 a.m. Monday in the Nisqually area north of Olympia.

...the track has been cleared for freight trains, but there's a 48-hour safety moratorium for Amtrak trains between Olympia and Tacoma.

 

[CHamilton]

Yep, confirmed on Twitter. Assume that "until December 19" means that trains will be running Wednesday morning, but it's not clear.

Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_CascadesAmtrak Cascades service between Seattle and Portland disrupted until December 19 due to mudslide. Alternate transportation will be provided

 

[Old MM]

We had the bustitution in both directions from Everett-Seattle last winter. it isn't bad at all, 45 min bus ride.