Notes from the 2013 Northwest Spring Rail Conference

[CHamilton]

Notes from the 2013 Northwest Spring Rail Conference
National Association of Railroad Passengers
All Aboard Washington
Association of Oregon Rail and Transit Advocates
Saturday March 2, 2013 in Tukwila, WA

These are not comprehensive notes. They focus on points of interest to AUers, and items I hadn’t heard before. See also the posts on All Aboard Washington’s Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/Allaboardwashington
Several other AU members were in attendance. Corrections and amplifications welcome.

Mr. Ron Pate – Operations Manager, Acting Director, WSDOT Rail Office

• The Cascades Corridor.367 mi in WA, OR, and BC.
• WA and OR are going to add Amtrak to the cooperative agreement for managing the corridor, effective October 1.
• WA is working to get BC involved in managing the corridor.

[*]Talgo and other equipment.

• WA currently owns 3 Talgo trainsets, Amtrak owns 2. See below on OR’s new two.
• WA is likely to lease the 2 Amtrak sets once PRIIA goes into effect in October 2013.
• WA might be interested in buying the WI Talgos if they could get Federal funds. [Josh Coran from Talgo says that WI Talgos are available for sale, but they may not be Buy American compliant, since WI had planned to pay for them with state funds.]
• The 130-car bilevel car order is proceeding; they are testing frames now. It wasn’t clear how many of those cars might come to the Northwest.
• The group of states working on a locomotive order have issued an RFI, and received responses from 7 vendors. WA may get 8 locos from this order.
• WA may buy equipment (unspecified?).

[*]Working on getting more people on trains.

• Ridership is slightly down, possibly due to mudslides and Bolt Bus.
• WA is working on OTP with Amtrak and Sound Transit. Amtrak was able to improve timekeeping by working with Homeland Security to reduce border crossing times.
• WA is working with Amtrak to improve customer service and marketing efforts.
• Looking for ways to give customers what they want.

[*]The Cascades is currently creating 2600 jobs in the NW.
[*]Rail improvement projects.

• King Street Station’s main waiting room is scheduled to reopen in 2 months.
• The project to add an additional siding in Everett should happen this year.
• The stimulus-funded project to improved freight rail access at the Port of Vancouver (WA) should happen in 2014.
• Point Defiance Bypass is still scheduled for completion in 2017, due to delays in the environmental process. But the project was approved by the FRA yesterday and should be announced on Monday.
• Construction on above and other projects will continue through 2017.
• Feds have approved the outline of the mudslide work.

[*]Funding

• PRIIA Sec. 209 will require WA to come up with $3-5 mil annually. He feels that the Legislature will support this amount, since the states get revenue as well as costs.
• Looking for ways to improve cost recovery: asking for suggestions.

[*]Mudslide task force includes WSDOT, ST, Amtrak, BNSF and local communities.

• BNSF is already doing short-term mitigation.
• Focusing on root causes: faulty pipes, problems with the permitting process, looking for ways to foster “de-watering” and lessen saturation of soils.

[*]The updated WA rail plan should be complete by fall 2013.
[*]Future speeds of up to 90 are technically possible, BNSF willing to talk. BNSF is installing PTC, which could possibly allow faster speeds, but might be limited by curves.
[*]Coal trains’ effect on Cascades.

• WSDOT has commented on BNSF’s proposal, and BNSF will need to answer. BNSF has assured the state that current capacity, plus two additional slots, will be protected, but would capacity be limited? The state wants to know if they are getting their fair share of the improvements they are paying for.

Bob Melbo, Rail Planner, ODOT Rail & Transit Division

• Working on long range plan for passenger rail, by early 2015. This will improve OR’s ability to compete for Federal funds.The plan is taking $4m from Feds, $6m from state.
• It will focus on the corridor between PDX-EUG, and will evaluate which routes could be taken and which cities could be served.
• It will also look at options for frequencies, running times and propulsion.

[*]Expanding the corridor agreement between WA, OR to include Amtrak will help the NW compete for Federal funds.
[*]Preparing for PRIIA.

• Costs, including station costs, will be apportioned between LD and Cascades trains.

[*]Purchase of two Talgo trainsets.

• Cost: $44.4m, of which $38m from Feds.
• Hope to see in OR this summer. Testing in Pueblo complete on #1 now. Next step is corridor testing. Working with FRA on that now. Some testing might happen on Stampede Pass as less disruptive. Once completed, need to install wifi, then ready to enter revenue service.

[*]OR’s Federal funds were received most for planning of such projects as:

• Crossovers at Wilbridge.
• UP connection improvements at Portland Jct.
• Funding for additional tracks at PDX Union Station.
• EUG layover tracks.

[*]TIGER grants, mostly freight rail projects.

• Rehabilitate Siskiyou tracks from Ashland to CA, so line can be reopened.
• Coos Bay to EUG.

[*]“Connect Oregon” State grants to rail totaled $149m, of which $38m would improve passenger service.

• Install CTC in Albany.
• Replace Columbia River bridge at Harrisburg in 2014.

[*]PRIIA:

• Funding found for current biennium, but OR legislation will need to come up with $30m in next biennium. Not clear that OR wants to be in the rail business.
• The transit people in the Rail and Transit Office are evaluating funding sources from FTA, including the same source they are using to buy the Talgos, as well as CMAQ air quality funds.

[*]Scheduling.

• After the new Talgos are in service, OR is looking to optimize Cascades schedule to increase revenue and ridership.
• Train 509 would terminate in PDX, and the current 509 service PDX-EUG replaced by a bus. This would allow a new morning PDX-EUG train, and a new EUG-SEA train 508 in the afternoon.

[*]High level platforms.

• Possible at PDX and EUG as part of the above projects.

[*]State rail plan includes eastern OR, but is not funded and not on front burner.
Dr. Rob Eaton – Amtrak Government Affairs West (Seattle)

• Amtrak works with 19 state partners.
• In FY 12, Amtrak up to 85% cost recovery, and its debt cut in half.
• The sequester will cause 6% cut, but no service cuts.
• PRIIA Sec. 207 specifies metrics by which trains are evaluated: Service, OTP and cost recovery. Service is pulled from customer satisfaction surveys on 10 items, including food, comfort, announcements, ease of boarding/deboarding. Proposed changes that would affect these metrics include:Reconfigure Superliner coaches to move seats 2” closer together and get rid of the large gap in front. This would add 4-6 new coach seats. [Josh Coran from Talgo says passengers won’t notice this change, as legroom is very generous now.]
• Reconfigure transdorms to add 10 new revenue rooms.
• Train OBS crew on ways to improve service; this is happening on Zephyr now.
• Implement ideas from CS PIP to improve cost recovery:Add business class by turning arcade coaches into BC with leather seats, add access to wine + cheese tastings.
• Renovate PPCs to add new lounge chairs, add wifi, remove steam tables, add more seating.

[*]Make changes to Metropolitan Lounges.

• In LA, get better space and restrooms.
• In Seattle, create Metropolitan Lounge. Will be in preliminary talks with City of Seattle as soon as current renovations are complete.
• Add access for business class passengers.

[*]Improve connection times in LA, in 2013.
[*]Improve connection from westbound EB to northbound Cascades.
[*]Install wifi on EB.
[*]Add bus to connect EB to VIA, GFK-Winnipeg. This might require tweaking of both trains’ schedules, but could add 10k passengers to EB.
[*]Add stations. Amtrak LD trains have more flexibility on this than state-supported trains do, as they can work directly with local communities. Looking at Oakridge OR [and another near Williston ND, see below].


[*]Even after PRIIA Sec. 209 goes into effect, Amtrak will pay 13% of its budget for support of these trains, in services like ticketing, the website, and the call center.
AAWA Tom Martin award given to outgoing WSDOT secretary Paula Hammond.

Josh Coran, Director of Operations, Talgo, Inc.

• OR Talgos have been in Pueblo for testing since the end of last year. All tests on stopping, noise, etc have gone as planned. Only surprise was that a trainset headed by a P42 achieved 108 mph in pull mode and 113 in push mode. Thus the Talgo has better streamlining than the P42, which will save money and fuel.
• Talgos will meet the new specs for single-level trainsets.
• FRA safety rules on train cars’ ability to withstand 800,000 pounds of force, which were added by the post office in 1910, are finally being modified. New rules will be officially proposed in May. Tier 3 rules for 220-mph running, due in a couple of years, may allow standard European equipment.Once these rules are changed, Oregon’s Series 8 Talgos will be compliant for running up to 155 mph, and, with updated trucks, to 186 mph.

Mr. Bob Stewart – NARP Chairman

• Amtrak wants to find a way to save the Pennsylvanian.
• NARP’s prioritiesCardinal daily
• Sunset East

[*]Also working with Amtrak to reverse the recent change to require onboard upgrades to be sold at the high-bucket price.
[*]Announced special discounts from Alaska Railroad, VIA and others.
Kathy Cox, Eastside Community Rail

• This organization, in conjunction with AAWA and Eastside Trailway, wants to revitalize the Eastside (King County) rail line.
• Wants to reintroduce “Bounty of Washington Tasting Train” wine excursions from Woodinville-Snohomish, with potential extensions to Bellevue and Everett, while coexisting with a bike trail and potential commuter services.
• Need $6.2m for track rehab along 15.6 miles of publicly-owned ROW.

Barry Green, Montana NARP Rep

• Because of increased usage, Amtrak is looking into adding an EB stop between Wolf Point and Williston. Possibly in Culbertson or Bainville.
• Amtrak is having a hard time keeping station attendants because they can’t compete with the wages the oilfields are paying. They are looking into the possibility of using senior citizens.

 

[Anderson]

Are there any ideas on what rabbits Amtrak is looking to pull out of their hat on the Pennsylvanian?

As to the other two NARP bits...very good.

 

[CHamilton]

Are there any ideas on what rabbits Amtrak is looking to pull out of their hat on the Pennsylvanian?

There was just a general statement that they were negotiating with the state. Stewart confirmed that they wanted to save it so as to make the Pittsburgh through sleepers/coaches possible, and hinted that doing so might take the train out from PRIIA requirements and make it an LD train.

 

[Anderson]

Ok, thanks on that one. As to this:
"Funding found for current biennium, but OR legislation will need to come up with $30m in next biennium. Not clear that OR wants to be in the rail business."

I'm guessing that's $15m/yr for the Cascades, counting capital charges and the like? Seems awful steep for one train per day south of Portland.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Charlie, :hi: THANKS :hi: for such great minutes. That said, I'll have to take you at your word that these are not comprehensive notes.

A few things that come to mind from here on the right coast:

• The Wisconsin Talgos, those poor orphaned bastards of pax rail in America in the 21st century, good point about them possibly not being Buy America compliant - another reason All Aboard Florida and Talgo have some possible common ground. Just sayin'.
• There is a real lounge, of any sort, in LAX? ^_^
• NARP's priority is the SSL-East over saving the Pennsylvanian?
• The whole 750 mile rule/sleeper 'can of worms' was opened. That's all I'm sayin' here too.
• THAT'S where the 13% comes from.
• Maybe I'm slow on the uptake, but the idea of using air quality funds to support pax rail is a great idea. Mitigation funds in general - air, congestion, density of development - could be a major source of state and local funding of pax rail if the states pass legislation to make it happen.
• There is that BC in the lounges thing again. :unsure: Doesn't sound like it is going away anytime soon. I understand Amtrak sees this as a way to increase revenue by promoting BC more, BUT this is a perk that Amtrak needs to apply additional resources to if they want this to be successful and not just do a good job of p***ing off first class, or their most loyal, customers.

I could keep going hboy: , but I'll force myself to stop. :lol: Thanks again!

 

[yarrow]

great report, charlie. thanks. lot of really interesting stuff

 

[Anderson]

Charlie, :hi: THANKS :hi: for such great minutes. That said, I'll have to take you at your word that these are not comprehensive notes.
A few things that come to mind from here on the right coast:

• The Wisconsin Talgos, those poor orphaned bastards of pax rail in America in the 21st century, good point about them possibly not being Buy America compliant - another reason All Aboard Florida and Talgo have some possible common ground. Just sayin'.
• There is a real lounge, of any sort, in LAX? ^_^
• NARP's priority is the SSL-East over saving the Pennsylvanian?
• The whole 750 mile rule/sleeper 'can of worms' was opened. That's all I'm sayin' here too.
• THAT'S where the 13% comes from.
• Maybe I'm slow on the uptake, but the idea of using air quality funds to support pax rail is a great idea. Mitigation funds in general - air, congestion, density of development - could be a major source of state and local funding of pax rail if the states pass legislation to make it happen.
• There is that BC in the lounges thing again. :unsure: Doesn't sound like it is going away anytime soon. I understand Amtrak sees this as a way to increase revenue by promoting BC more, BUT this is a perk that Amtrak needs to apply additional resources to if they want this to be successful and not just do a good job of p***ing off first class, or their most loyal, customers.

I could keep going hboy: , but I'll force myself to stop. :lol: Thanks again!

The sad thing is that NARP has had the Sunset East stick up their NPCU for a long, long time and can't get over it in spite of the fact that there are plenty of other proposals that have a better shot at getting traction with a good push. I know it's a gap in the system, I know it's seen as low-hanging fruit, but...ugh. There's not even available equipment, and what's more even if an order goes in, there are about 4-5 LD bilevel trains in need of additional capacity first (SWC, CZ CHI-DEN, EB, CL...). If anything, NARP ought to dump the Sunset East push to a footnote and focus on other things (such as either more rolling stock, new diesel engines, or y'know, saving the Pennsylvanian).[/rant]

 

[jis]

Charlie, :hi: THANKS :hi: for such great minutes. That said, I'll have to take you at your word that these are not comprehensive notes.
A few things that come to mind from here on the right coast:

• THAT'S where the 13% comes from.

I could keep going hboy: , but I'll force myself to stop. :lol: Thanks again!

Well, just because some Amtrak guy said so does not make it so. Amtrak presenters at these shindigs can be remarkably uninformed about these things. I would dig deeper into the 13% thing before I'd bet my money on it. It flies against everything that Amtrak has officially said so far.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Charlie, :hi: THANKS :hi: for such great minutes. That said, I'll have to take you at your word that these are not comprehensive notes.
A few things that come to mind from here on the right coast:

• THAT'S where the 13% comes from.

I could keep going hboy: , but I'll force myself to stop. :lol: Thanks again!

Well, just because some Amtrak guy said so does not make it so. Amtrak presenters at these shindigs can be remarkably uninformed about these things. I would dig deeper into the 13% thing before I'd bet my money on it. It flies against everything that Amtrak has officially said so far.

So you see it more as coming from cap. improvement costs?

Then there is the discussion here: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/54236-states-may-not-be-paying-100-even-with-priia-209/&do=findComment&comment=426379

 

[Railroad Bill]

Thanks Charles for the informative report. You get an A for note-taking from the principal

 

[CHamilton]

Ok, thanks on that one. As to this:"Funding found for current biennium, but OR legislation will need to come up with $30m in next biennium. Not clear that OR wants to be in the rail business."

I'm guessing that's $15m/yr for the Cascades, counting capital charges and the like? Seems awful steep for one train per day south of Portland.

You're right that the figure is $15m/year, but I believe it includes more trains than that. Currently there are two RTs per day PDX-EUG (not counting the CS) plus 4-5 Thruway bus RTs, and once the new Talgos are in service, at least one of those trips will turn into a train.

 

[CHamilton]

• There is a real lounge, of any sort, in LAX? ^_^

Not really. Sleeper passenger for the CS (only, not the SL or SWC) get to hang out in the station's bar, since it's not open at that hour of the morning. They also have a roped-off overflow area of the waiting room with more tables.

• NARP's priority is the SSL-East over saving the Pennsylvanian?

Those two comments weren't on the same PowerPoint slide, so I'm not sure that the Pennsylvanian was on the same priority list.

OT: Speakers at events like this need to kill using PowerPoint. No one beyond the first rows can see the @#$%^ slides anyway.

 

[CHamilton]

Charlie, :hi: THANKS :hi: for such great minutes. That said, I'll have to take you at your word that these are not comprehensive notes.
A few things that come to mind from here on the right coast:

• THAT'S where the 13% comes from.

I could keep going hboy: , but I'll force myself to stop. :lol: Thanks again!

Well, just because some Amtrak guy said so does not make it so. Amtrak presenters at these shindigs can be remarkably uninformed about these things. I would dig deeper into the 13% thing before I'd bet my money on it. It flies against everything that Amtrak has officially said so far.

That was evidently the case here. The presenter had been given "talking points," and, I believe, the slide deck, from Amtrak HQ. The 13% was on the slide, but what it included was his interpretation.

 

[CHamilton]

Thanks Charles for the informative report. You get an A for note-taking from the principal

Thanks, Bill I started taking notes at these meetings when I realized that 75% of the presentations are either old news or boring...but the other 25% is like "oh, really!" and it's useful to remember those bits.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

While the WInnipeg connections could add 10K to the EB each year, does it have capacity AT ALL even in the off season through North Dakota right now? At what point, if any, will MN and ND jump in and decide they want to pay for a day Minneapolis-Williston train? Assuming equip, of course, but still...

 

[CHamilton]

While the WInnipeg connections could add 10K to the EB each year, does it have capacity AT ALL even in the off season through North Dakota right now? At what point, if any, will MN and ND jump in and decide they want to pay for a day Minneapolis-Williston train? Assuming equip, of course, but still...

Johnny, I wondered about that myself. The EB is often sold out in the summer, and is getting busier in the winter. Obviously, some of the reconfigurations to Superliners discussed would add capacity (especially in coach, where it's apparently most needed). But I doubt whether those changes alone would be enough to provide the additional capacity needed. As to state support from MN and ND, we didn't hear anything about that.

 

[Anderson]

10k/yr is 15 passengers per train...that's 5-10 boardings and alightings in a given direction.

Edit: A map of load factors might be useful. Is the EB sold out all the way through, or is there a chokepoint? i.e. Are they looking to run a bunch of traffic west to Seattle/Portland (and enable loop trips) or east to Minneapolis/Chicago? If there's an area on the route where the train sells out, there's always the possibility you've got a lot of "dead space" on the train somewhere. This comes up a lot in conjunction with the Zephyr, and I know it applies elsewhere, too.

 

[Paulus]

FRA safety rules on train cars’ ability to withstand 800,000 pounds of force, which were added by the post office in 1910, are finally being modified. New rules will be officially proposed in May. Tier 3 rules for 220-mph running, due in a couple of years, may allow standard European equipment.

Praise the Ommnissiah!

Once these rules are changed, Oregon’s Series 8 Talgos will be compliant for running up to 155 mph, and, with updated trucks, to 186 mph.

Is this with the Tier 3 regs or the buff strength ones? I'm presuming the Tier 3 regs.

Mr. Bob Stewart – NARP Chairman
Amtrak wants to find a way to save the Pennsylvanian.
NARP’s priorities
Cardinal daily
Sunset East
Also working with Amtrak to reverse the recent change to require onboard upgrades to be sold at the high-bucket price.
Announced special discounts from Alaska Railroad, VIA and others.

Does NARP actually propose or do anything useful? This and everything else I've seen from them makes them sound like nothing more than a cheerleader squad for Amtrak and the long distance trains in particular rather than trying to support useful intercity service for most Americans.

 

[Anderson]

FRA safety rules on train cars’ ability to withstand 800,000 pounds of force, which were added by the post office in 1910, are finally being modified. New rules will be officially proposed in May. Tier 3 rules for 220-mph running, due in a couple of years, may allow standard European equipment.

Praise the Ommnissiah!

Once these rules are changed, Oregon’s Series 8 Talgos will be compliant for running up to 155 mph, and, with updated trucks, to 186 mph.

Is this with the Tier 3 regs or the buff strength ones? I'm presuming the Tier 3 regs.

Mr. Bob Stewart – NARP Chairman
Amtrak wants to find a way to save the Pennsylvanian.
NARP’s priorities
Cardinal daily
Sunset East
Also working with Amtrak to reverse the recent change to require onboard upgrades to be sold at the high-bucket price.
Announced special discounts from Alaska Railroad, VIA and others.

Does NARP actually propose or do anything useful? This and everything else I've seen from them makes them sound like nothing more than a cheerleader squad for Amtrak and the long distance trains in particular rather than trying to support useful intercity service for most Americans.

Ok, ok...who let the Mechanicus fanatic in here?

 

[MattW]

Did they say anything about locomotives for the 155, 186mph Talgos? I'm pretty sure even 4 P42s couldn't haul the set much past 110 even on a downgrade, and the F125 ordered by Metrolink is only good for 125mph, so any idea what they're planning? Was electrification mentioned?

 

[Ryan]

The sad thing is that NARP has had the Sunset East stick up their NPCU for a long, long time and can't get over it in spite of the fact that there are plenty of other proposals that have a better shot at getting traction with a good push. I know it's a gap in the system, I know it's seen as low-hanging fruit, but...ugh. There's not even available equipment,

I suspect that the equipment is available, I don't think that they've taken advantage of the schedule change to eliminate the 4th set. If that's the case, the equipment is still just sitting in NOL when it could be running to FL.

I need to start watching the arrivals/departures of 1/2 in NOL and see if I can figure this out...

 

[afigg]

Did they say anything about locomotives for the 155, 186mph Talgos? I'm pretty sure even 4 P42s couldn't haul the set much past 110 even on a downgrade, and the F125 ordered by Metrolink is only good for 125mph, so any idea what they're planning? Was electrification mentioned?

According to the most excellent report from CHamilton, the 155 and 186 mph capability of the Talgo trainset can from the Talgo representative. The only way those trainsets would ever run at those speeds in revenue service in the west would be on newly built high speed electrified corridors. Since WA and OR are only funding incremental upgrades to the existing corridor, true HSR corridors in the Pacific NW are a very long ways off. Would not read anything of significance in that statement.

 

[Ryan]

Also working with Amtrak to reverse the recent change to require onboard upgrades to be sold at the high-bucket price.

I thought that the recent change was "current bucket", not "high bucket".

Either way, I think that there are probably more important windmills to tilt at.

Great report Charlie, and thanks for sharing.

 

[CHamilton]

10k/yr is 15 passengers per train...that's 5-10 boardings and alightings in a given direction.
Edit: A map of load factors might be useful. Is the EB sold out all the way through, or is there a chokepoint? i.e. Are they looking to run a bunch of traffic west to Seattle/Portland (and enable loop trips) or east to Minneapolis/Chicago? If there's an area on the route where the train sells out, there's always the possibility you've got a lot of "dead space" on the train somewhere. This comes up a lot in conjunction with the Zephyr, and I know it applies elsewhere, too.

I haven't seen such a map, but I know that the traffic to/from Williston goes both east and west. MSP-CHI could easily fill another train, and both Amtrak and the state are still interested in a daylight SEA-SPK train, since although traffic to/from those points isn't great right now, it would be with better scheduling.

 

[CHamilton]

Did they say anything about locomotives for the 155, 186mph Talgos? I'm pretty sure even 4 P42s couldn't haul the set much past 110 even on a downgrade, and the F125 ordered by Metrolink is only good for 125mph, so any idea what they're planning? Was electrification mentioned?

Sorry, Matt, I don't recall hearing anything about what locos they might use, other than the hints about "standard European equipment." The Oregon rail guy did say that electrification would be considered as part of their passenger rail plan.