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fulham

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Jun 22, 2012
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While I doubt this will ever come to fruition, this is what I would like to see in the NY - Chicago corridor.

Currently I believe Amtrak has a lot of potential in this market and I would like to see the following:

WB

Keep the LSL as is with the possible change of finding some way to run an open cafe car all the way from NY - Chicago instead of the current situation in ABY. Maybe even go back to a connecting train in ABY for Boston and do away w/the Boston sleeper.

Run a second NYP - Chicago train via Pittsburg and Cleveland. This train would leave NYP around 8 PM, get into Cleveland around 8 AM the following morning and provide day time service between Cleveland and Chicago. Arrival in Chicago would be around 2 PM. This train would have 1 - 2 sleepers, coaches, and no diner...only a cafe car. Sleeping car fares would be slightly lower since meals would not be included.

EB

Have the LSL leave around 5 PM gettting into NYP at a more civilized 2 PM the next day. Keep the diner open until ABY and again look at running a cafe car into NYP instead of Boston.

Run a second Chicago - NYP train via Cleveland and Pittsburg. This train would be the "clean-up" train out of Chicago, leaving at 8 - 8:30 PM w/arrival in Pittsburg 8 AM the following morning and then arrival at NYP around 3 - 4 PM. The Pennsylvanian could possibly leave later in the morning.

The LSL would remain the premier train between Chicago and NYP, but by leaving earlier from Chicago and arriving earlier in NY, it could possibly capture increased business between these two cities.

Equipment could come from several sources:

The second NY-Chicago train could use the new Viewliner sleepers. Coaches could possibly be rebuilt horizon cars once the new bilevels begin service around Chicago.

Also, maybe look at making the Cardinal a daily, daytime, Washington-Cinc train. This would also free up a sleeper or two.

I know the above scenario was what was basically running before the Three Rivers was axed, but I believe as Amtrak as become more popular, 2 direct NY - Chicago trains w/better times make sense...especially EB. I know the 2 new trains would be considered "long-distance" but by not having a diner on the later train, the cost part of the equation could be more favorable.

The chances of this happening are probably slim to none, but one can always hope.
 
You won't get my vote for making Boston travelers second-class citizens! One of my earlier trips, they did that to us: made us get out of our sleepers at Albany, change to old equipment coaches, and only sandwiches (no hot drinks or meals) between Albany and BOS. Hated it.The only thing worse was being bustituted from Albany to BOS, ha, ha!
 
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When it comes to Boston, the only "real" answer is to cut 448/449 off into it's very own train and no longer have it connect with 48/49.

Ideally, I see the East Coast <-> Chicago market as needing five separate daily trains:

  1. Lake Shore Limited. New York City to/from Chicago via Albany on the Water Level Route. Coachclass, Sleeperclass, full dining and lounge car service.
  2. Broadway Limited/Pennsylvanian. New York City to/from Chicago via Pittsburgh on the old Pennsy main line. Coachclass, Sleeperclass, full dining and lounge car service.
  3. Capitol Limited. Washington DC to/from Chicago. Leave this train unchanged from it's current running.
  4. Cardinal. New York City to/from Chicago via Washington DC and St. Louis. Make daily. Coachclass, Sleeperclass, full dining and lounge car service.
  5. Bostonian/Colonial. Boston to/from Chicago via Albany on the Water Level Route. Coachclass, Sleeperclass, full dining and lounge car service.
 
New York City to Chicago via St. Louis? Now that would a train that would make the Traveler proud! :p A more practical train would be one that splits at Indy with one section going to St. Louis and the other to Chicago.

The Broadway as described would be a very slow train given the current condition of the old Pennsy Fort Wayne route. However, it could be run on its final routing via CSX (ex B&O) through Akron and Garrett, Nappanee (probably over CSX's dead body though).

I would also consider running one of the three trains running on the Water Level Route west of Cleveland via Toledo, Dearborn, Kalamazoo, thus adding many useful city pairs that do not have direct service now. Perhaps the Lake Shore would provide the maximum bang for the buck if it precedes the Cap into Toledo wastbound and follows it westbound.
 
jis said:
New York City to Chicago via St. Louis? Now that would a train that would make the Traveler proud! :p A more practical train would be one that splits at Indy with one section going to St. Louis and the other to Chicago.
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True! And likely the best idea after all. Not to mention it would make an east-coast connection for St. Louis without the need to go through Chicago.

I would also consider running one of the three trains running on the Water Level Route west of Cleveland via Toledo, Dearborn, Kalamazoo, thus adding many useful city pairs that do not have direct service now. Perhaps the Lake Shore would provide the maximum bang for the buck if it precedes the Cap into Toledo wastbound and follows it westbound.
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I wonder if this would be better suited for the LSL or the Boston train?
 
fulham said:
While I doubt this will ever come to fruition, this is what I would like to see in the NY - Chicago corridor.

Currently I believe Amtrak has a lot of potential in this market and I would like to see the following:

WB

Keep the LSL as is with the possible change of finding some way to run an open cafe car all the way from NY - Chicago instead of the current situation in ABY. Maybe even go back to a connecting train in ABY for Boston and do away w/the Boston sleeper. Take away a Boston Sleeper for that connection train, you'll have some pissed off riders.

Run a second NYP - Chicago train via Pittsburg and Cleveland. This train would leave NYP around 8 PM, get into Cleveland around 8 AM the following morning and provide day time service between Cleveland and Chicago. Arrival in Chicago would be around 2 PM. This train would have 1 - 2 sleepers, coaches, and no diner...only a cafe car. Sleeping car fares would be slightly lower since meals would not be included. This puts the train in Philly at 930 to 10ish.. Passengers can't use the lounge in Philly who are using Sleeping Accommodations. That's a big plus of buying Sleeper space. And lower fares to put Amfood in the stomachs of Sleeper Passengers? That was the case on the old three rivers.. I wasn't into it.. I prefer a full service diner.

EB

Have the LSL leave around 5 PM gettting into NYP at a more civilized 2 PM the next day. Keep the diner open until ABY and again look at running a cafe car into NYP instead of Boston. Not repeating myself on this one.

Run a second Chicago - NYP train via Cleveland and Pittsburg. This train would be the "clean-up" train out of Chicago, leaving at 8 - 8:30 PM w/arrival in Pittsburg 8 AM the following morning and then arrival at NYP around 3 - 4 PM. The Pennsylvanian could possibly leave later in the morning. If you're gunna have an 8am arrival, why not put that Pennsylvanian to the afternoon?

Also, maybe look at making the Cardinal a daily, daytime, Washington-Cinc train. This would also free up a sleeper or two. I'm laughing at this one. The Cardinal departs NYP at 7am. What daylight is there at 1am?? Keep in mind the Cardinal is a big link for the West Virginia passengers to Indy and Chicago. This will never happen, considering they are trying to make it a daily service.

The chances of this happening are probably slim to none, but one can always hope. You already answered your questions.
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Blackwolf said:
When it comes to Boston, the only "real" answer is to cut 448/449 off into it's very own train and no longer have it connect with 48/49.

Ideally, I see the East Coast <-> Chicago market as needing five separate daily trains:
Click to expand...
Frankly, there's enough demand for it. We can quibble about exact route and scheduling, but:
- The Lake Shore Limited is already long enough that separate NY and Boston trains are justifiable.

- A train from the East Coast to Detroit is needed as well. If the US's USSR-style border crossing harassment insanity ever gets fixed, it could run across a rebuilt Canada Southern; otherwise it can run via Toledo.

- A train (or at least through cars) from Philaelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago is needed.

- Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Cleveland and Pittsburgh-Akron/Canton-Cleveland are *both* needed

- One of the routes to Chicago needs to go through Fort Wayne.

And I haven't even gotten to the appropriate routes for the Ohio River Valley cities.
 
Nathanael said:
Blackwolf said:
When it comes to Boston, the only "real" answer is to cut 448/449 off into it's very own train and no longer have it connect with 48/49.

Ideally, I see the East Coast <-> Chicago market as needing five separate daily trains:
Click to expand...
Frankly, there's enough demand for it. We can quibble about exact route and scheduling, but:
- The Lake Shore Limited is already long enough that separate NY and Boston trains are justifiable. It's long. But the question is does the connected of segments justify two trains. My answer is no. That's one train you'd have to run in two different slots which CSX won't go for.

- A train from the East Coast to Detroit is needed as well. If the US's USSR-style border crossing harassment insanity ever gets fixed, it could run across a rebuilt Canada Southern; otherwise it can run via Toledo. How much demand is there for a East Coast link to Detroit? My guess is not much..

- A train (or at least through cars) from Philaelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago is needed. Have you read the PRIIA on this?

- Pittsburgh-Youngstown-Cleveland and Pittsburgh-Akron/Canton-Cleveland are *both* needed Keep in mind that the Three Rivers served both Youngstown and Akron. The TR was cut back to PGH when Amtrak sold the mail contracts. That's all the TR was.. A long string of mail cars and Roadrailers. The demand wasn't there to keep the train running to CHI.

- One of the routes to Chicago needs to go through Fort Wayne. IIRC that was served by the Three Rivers.

And I haven't even gotten to the appropriate routes for the Ohio River Valley cities.
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fulham said:
WB

Keep the LSL as is with the possible change of finding some way to run an open cafe car all the way from NY - Chicago instead of the current situation in ABY. Maybe even go back to a connecting train in ABY for Boston and do away w/the Boston sleeper.

Run a second NYP - Chicago train via Pittsburg and Cleveland. This train would leave NYP around 8 PM, get into Cleveland around 8 AM the following morning and provide day time service between Cleveland and Chicago. Arrival in Chicago would be around 2 PM. This train would have 1 - 2 sleepers, coaches, and no diner...only a cafe car. Sleeping car fares would be slightly lower since meals would not be included.
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Adding my own comments to the earlier ones. Why kill the Boston sleeper car and split service to BOS? Reduces service, does not improve it.
Like the idea of a restored Three Rivers, but its primary market for overnight trips to CHI would be not just NYC, but also PHL, Paoli, Lancaster, Harrisburg. A 8 PM departure from NYP means pretty late boardings at PHL, later still at Lancaster. A circa 7 PM NYP departure would be better for PHL and Lancaster and still provide acceptable morning times at Cleveland. Of course, finding a slot for a circa 7 PM NYP departure could be a problem. And no diner? If Amtrak succeeds in eliminating losses on LD diner car operations, cutting a diner from an overnight train would be a serious mistake.

Big question though of whether it should follow the same route from PGH through Ohio as the CL.

fulham said:
EB

Have the LSL leave around 5 PM getting into NYP at a more civilized 2 PM the next day. Keep the diner open until ABY and again look at running a cafe car into NYP instead of Boston.

...

Also, maybe look at making the Cardinal a daily, daytime, Washington-Cinc train. This would also free up a sleeper or two.
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A 5 PM CHI departure for the LSL would break connections with arriving western LD trains. Amtrak proposed several years ago in the PRIIA PIP report to move up the LSL CH departure to 7 to 7:30 PM with some padding removed from the schedule and the CL to later to be the last connecting train east. Nothing has happen on this so far. Amtrak may be waiting for CSX to complete tunnel clearance projects on the CL route or for some track projects in IN and IL to be completed for more reliable service before committing to a new schedule.
As for the Cardinal, a WAS to Cincinnati train would lose a LOT of markets. CIN to CHI, VA and WV to CHI, CVS to NYP for starters. Amtrak will be getting 25 new sleepers and 25 baggage-dorms which will expand sleeper capacity. Don't have to take sleepers away from the Cardinal.

The Cardinal will benefit from VA funding for track maintenance and new siding to the Buckingham Branch and for upgrades on the portion of the NS route in VA the Cardinal uses. If IN follows through on supporting the Hoosier State with track improvements, the Cardinal will benefit on the IN and IL end of the route. If IN funds a daily Hoosier State in a year, that leaves the way open for daily Cardinal after that, if the BBRR and CSX constraints have been addressed by then.
 
Good discussion, I like all of the points. Two things to consider:

The new Rochester NY station will not have a platform long enough to handle the current length of the LSL. Splitting it into two would take care of this problem.

Also, to get a train back to Nappanee would be great--I grew up halfway between Elkhart and Nappanee, and it would be kind of cool to have another option.

As mentioned, this is a real stretch, but you never know...
 
As long as we're dreaming, how about a low-budget NYC-CHI train? Vending machines instead of diner/lounge. Only one employee...the engineer. A rebuilt cattle car for the lizards to sleep. And a real low price. Lower than Greyhound.

Not very appealing to most of us, I know. But it would attract a lot of the "unwashed masses" and other undesirables. It would make the other trains that much better.
 
Undesirables? Really?

I do like the idea of an East Coast to CHI train that runs through southern Michigan.

All of the ideas to reduce service are ridiculous - Amtrak should be adding new service, not cutting trains.
 
Yes, Ryan, Really. You can imagine whom I'm referring to....people who don't take baths, people with bad breath, racist Redskin fans, etc. (lol)
 
billthebarn said:
As long as we're dreaming, how about a low-budget NYC-CHI train? Vending machines instead of diner/lounge. Only one employee...the engineer. A rebuilt cattle car for the lizards to sleep. And a real low price. Lower than Greyhound.
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That would be contrary to FRA regulations :p

But clearly, in spite of no indication as such, this would appear to be a non-serious contribution. ;) An attempt at a joke perhaps? :D
 
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Amtrak will not have a serious national system until it has train leaving Chicago for NY by 6 pm. The current situation is ridiculous, though I know the reason.. I used to take it once or twice a year. Now, never. I'm not going to pay first class fare to get on at night, not get an actual dinner, and not get to NYC till the day is over. I can't believe they can't scrape up the money for an additional train. Part of it is that, much as we like the Cardinal scenery, it devours a huge amount of expense but politically they can't get rid of it.

And no, much as I would like, the Amtrak on the Pennsy main line through Fort Wayne isn't going to happen. I'd settle for a real Broadway on the "new" routing.
 
RyanS said:
I do like the idea of an East Coast to CHI train that runs through southern Michigan.
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YES YES, a thousand times, YES.

Route it through Canada to save time, if possible, or just run it through IN, MI, and OH. I don't care. Just make it happen.

Backtracking to Chicago isn't TOO horrible from where I am, but it does take up an entire day, so we may as well drive to the east coast since it would only add a few hours.

Driving to Toledo is right up there with delinting my sweaters. Plus, the LSL departure and arrival times at TOL are way too late/early for me to be behind the wheel of a car.
 
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Lots of good replies to this post...

My comments about doing away w/the Boston sleeper did not seem very popular. Again I believe they need to run a lounge/cafe car on the NY section of the LSL. Why not run 2 cafe cars...one for the Boston section and one for the NY section? Boardman has said the cafe cars break even on the corridor trains. I wonder how they do on the LD trains? The times I have ridden the WB LSL, the lines for the cafe car out of ALB are huge...so maybe a dedicated NY cafe car would make sense.

As far as the 3rd NY - Chicago train, keeping it on a Chi-Clev-Pitt-NY routing makes sense in that the line already sees service and no new stations, crossing timings, etc would need to be installed. How the NS would take to a 3rd train would be a major issue, (and would probably prevent it from happening).

With the current LSL schedule, it is a Catch-22 situation. If the Chief, Zephyr, and Builder are on-time, having to wait 5 - 6 hours in CUS stinks...but if they are really late, having that 9:30 departure time is good. That is why having the 3rd train is important. Even if it were to leave Chicago around 9 PM it should still get to NYP between 3 and 4 PM...early enough to catch connecting trains to Boston, Albany, Washington, Hartford, etc.
 
With all the debate about schedules; it was very common for business travelers to leave for Chicago at 10:30 or 11:15 pm, getting in the next morning for the beginning of the business day. The trips back to NYC also ran late for on overnight journey. The big difference from then vs now is that about eight or nine trains left throughout the day. I have old timetables that show that.

As for adding more trains; if the equipment were available that would be nice, but it isn't. End of discussion. When Amtrak finally gets the Viewliner II's don't be surprised if the current rolling stock is brought to the scrapyard. Certainly the diners and baggage cars will head that way but I hope that Amtrak has the good sense to keep the sleepers.
 
dlagrua said:
Certainly the diners and baggage cars will head that way but I hope that Amtrak has the good sense to keep the sleepers.
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The Sleepers will be progressively refurbished to bring them upto the same standard as the new one, with 125mph trucks and with the removal of commodes from the Roomettes and installation of two common restrooms etc. So no, there is no plan to scrap them. Also the Viewliner Diner is not going anywhere. They might even retain a few cherry-picked Temoinsa Diners for a little bit.
 
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