Ohio High-Speed Rail Advocates Look to Maine as a Model

[profwebs]

Sure would be nice to see this happen.. This is the 2nd story I have read recently talking about starting service in 2011:

COLUMBUS, Ohio—High-speed rail advocates are holding up a New England state as an example of a system that could work in Ohio.
Columbus hasn’t had regular passenger-train service since 1971.

The state plans to ask for about $400 million in federal stimulus money to start what’s being called a “3-C” system connecting Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati.

The money will be used to make major improvements to the existing freight-train tracks, signals and equipment to make them suitable for higher-speed passenger traffic.

Rest of the story:

Ohio High Speed Rail

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

2001 3-C High-Speed Rail Study for Ohio Rail Development CommissionCincinnati to Cleveland: 258 miles each way, $90.27 ticket, 3 hours and 28 minutes

Columbus to Cleveland: $47.42 fare

That's a pretty hefty fare for only 258 miles in a rust-belt state. However I am glad to see a number for fare... I don't know how they're going to get down to that time but if they do it may be worth the cash... *may*

I also like following ME as an example rather than OR or WA, this holds hope that Ohio may let Amtrak use existing Amfleet Is and P42s which would cut down the startup costs.

 

[profwebs]

2001 3-C High-Speed Rail Study for Ohio Rail Development CommissionCincinnati to Cleveland: 258 miles each way, $90.27 ticket, 3 hours and 28 minutes

Columbus to Cleveland: $47.42 fare

That's a pretty hefty fare for only 258 miles in a rust-belt state. However I am glad to see a number for fare... I don't know how they're going to get down to that time but if they do it may be worth the cash... *may*

I also like following ME as an example rather than OR or WA, this holds hope that Ohio may let Amtrak use existing Amfleet Is and P42s which would cut down the startup costs.

How'd I know you'd be the first to reply

Having driven Youngstown to Cinci and Akron to Cincy, I'd gladly pay the $90 for a 3 hour ride... especially driving through Columbus during rush hour.

Also read about a company looking for loans to start a plant in Columbus manufacturing cars for the route, but they also said the cars would be built for 79 mph speeds, but could be upgraded.... not high speed there.

 

[MattW]

Indeed, Maine is probably the model to look at. Chicago's always been a hub, and California is...well...California...and captive fleets never made sense to me!! (OR, WA) Congrats to Ohio for actually being serious about this. Maybe this will help kick-start something down here in Georgia! On that note, about how far along are Ohio's plans vs. Georgia's plans? They shovel-ready and we aren't? The studies at the same places?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Indeed, Maine is probably the model to look at. Chicago's always been a hub, and California is...well...California...and captive fleets never made sense to me!! (OR, WA) Congrats to Ohio for actually being serious about this. Maybe this will help kick-start something down here in Georgia! On that note, about how far along are Ohio's plans vs. Georgia's plans? They shovel-ready and we aren't? The studies at the same places?

The track upgrades are almost shovel ready. They're waiting on the funds. The studies are (to my knowledge) over, and that they're just doing the politicking and the contract signing to get shovels in the ground for track upgrades.

I haven't heard anything about new cars or Talgo nonsense so it is likely that this project will start up with Amtrak gear and that Amtrak will be the operator.

As for the price, here is how I think about it:

For $90 I could get just about anywhere on the NEC, PGH-NYP in BC on the Penny, and three coach tickets from PDX to SEA.

Again, to me, it seems pricey, especially if that is low-bucket.

 

[jeff davis]

What Maine has accomplished with the Downeaster is indeed a good example. The key being cooperation between a few freight railroads, a Massachusetts commuter railroad (MBTA) and of course Amtrak all of whom share what at times is a single track. Many argued that even though Boston is at one end of the line this experiment would not work because travelers would not stand for trains constantly running late but in truth The Downeaster trains are seldom late and the MBTA trains continue to run on schedule.

I would argue that price is also a factor. The Downeaster is about $25 for the trip from Boston to Portland Maine. I use it

about twice a month because of the value and convenience. Considering the cost of driving to the nearest station (about 20) gas and station parking fees I would have to think twice if the fair went up significantly.

 

[profwebs]

Found the article I talked about previously. This is not connected to the 3cplans at all, but atleast it would create some jobs if they can compete: U.S. Railcar LLC

Also found the Ohio DOT 3c website here..

 

[TimePeace]

Well - it's been a while since I thought of this phrase, but who remembers "As Maine goes, so goes the nation. . . "

Proud to be here, that's me - and looking forward to a CZ trip with my son in Nov!

David

 

[profwebs]

Just saw this in a story:

Ticket prices have not been determined. But a one-way ticket from Cleveland to Cincinnati would cost $25.50 at the Amtrak average of 10 cents per mile, said Ken Prendergast, executive director of All Aboard Ohio, a nonprofit agency that promotes rail travel.

Plain Dealer

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

$25.50 for one-way coach would not be a bad deal for low buckets, in fact I bet you could easily get more than that *IF* the trains kept to the 3.5 hour schedule.

 

[profwebs]

Looking at the "Ohio Hub" graphic here, I would think the trains would have no problem keeping on schedule

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The service, which could start in two years, would leave Cleveland at 6:30 a.m. and arrive in Columbus at 9:53 a.m., according to a proposed schedule. The trains, run by Amtrak, would travel at 79 miles an hour.

Plain Dealer

I just ran some quick numbers. The route is 258 miles according to Amtrak, at 79mph the entire route would take up 3.25 hours. Meaning they have only allotted 15 minutes for station stops and they're also assuming they can run at a constant 79mph.

Obviously the 3.5 hour runtime is unobtainable for what they're proposing.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Looking at the "Ohio Hub" graphic here, I would think the trains would have no problem keeping on schedule

258 miles at a straight 79mph will take over 3 hours 15 minutes to complete.

They will not keep that promise unless they can get to 110mph on some parts of the route.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Looking at the "Ohio Hub" graphic here, I would think the trains would have no problem keeping on schedule

258 miles at a straight 79mph will take over 3 hours 15 minutes to complete.

They will not keep that promise unless they can get to 110mph on some parts of the route.

Hope they dont hire Veola, theyll ensure that the trains will never run @ all like theyve done here in Austin!!

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Looking at the "Ohio Hub" graphic here, I would think the trains would have no problem keeping on schedule

258 miles at a straight 79mph will take over 3 hours 15 minutes to complete.

They will not keep that promise unless they can get to 110mph on some parts of the route.

Hope they dont hire Veola, theyll ensure that the trains will never run @ all like theyve done here in Austin!!

From what I've read from Amtrak and Strickland they will be using Amtrak crews and gear to start up-- with Ohio/USA made coaches to work into the system.

As for the upgrades they'll be paying CSX and NS to do the upgrades, who will be paying is still up for debate. If we get HSR funds the Feds might pick up the tab using ODOT as a middle-man. If not we'll probably have ODOT pay for it-- but I have confidence Ohio will get a slice of the HSR pie.

Strickland, Brown, and others are all strong union Democrats, thats why they haven't flirted with Talgo. They not only want US built cars, they want (but may not get) OHIO-made gear. Strickland would like the 3-C corridor to only be the first step. He wants Ohio to be the hub of the midwest HSR network, which makes sense if said network ever works because of Ohio's geographic location. You get Ohio-made cars, Ohio pax and Ohio trains and you got a good dream.

One thing I like is that I haven't seen any deals like what happened with NYDOT and the Turboliners. There's no "if you upgrade the tracks, we'll make the coaches" kind of deal here. Strickland knows this is a tough sell, and he's keeping it simple. That's why he's looking at Maine (which has a very successful yet simple setup) and dealing with three companies: Amtrak, Amtrak, and Amtrak. They got the infrastructure and industry knowledge-- its the safe bet.

 

[AAARGH!]

Another article here.

Amtrak said Tuesday that a plan to restore passenger train service among Ohio's major cities would draw about 478,000 riders each year on a route that has key demographics needed for successful operations.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Another article here.

Amtrak said Tuesday that a plan to restore passenger train service among Ohio's major cities would draw about 478,000 riders each year on a route that has key demographics needed for successful operations.

Total travel time on the route would be 6 hours and 30 minutes. That's about what it would take to drive the same corridor, but longer than a more direct route between Cleveland and Cincinnati on Interstate 71 that takes 4 1/2 hours by car.

That sounds better... now where are the other articles getting the 3.5 hour estimate from?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Found the article I talked about previously. This is not connected to the 3cplans at all, but atleast it would create some jobs if they can compete: U.S. Railcar LLC
Also found the Ohio DOT 3c website here..

That's the old Rader/Colorado Rail Car. Their product is about the worst junk you can possibly imagine. Badly built, overweight, and built using a material (carbon steel) that hasn't been used in rail car construction in the civilized world for 50 years. Even stingy Pullman gave up on it in the late 50s, using only aluminum and, for the Superliners, Stainless.

It being American owned is its only plus.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Found the article I talked about previously. This is not connected to the 3cplans at all, but atleast it would create some jobs if they can compete: U.S. Railcar LLC
Also found the Ohio DOT 3c website here..

That's the old Rader/Colorado Rail Car. Their product is about the worst junk you can possibly imagine. Badly built, overweight, and built using a material (carbon steel) that hasn't been used in rail car construction in the civilized world for 50 years. Even stingy Pullman gave up on it in the late 50s, using only aluminum and, for the Superliners, Stainless.

It being American owned is its only plus.

Well I haven't seen what they've produced recently so I don't know.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Well I haven't seen what they've produced recently so I don't know.

Until they with the modern world and switch to Stainless Steel or aluminum, it doesn't matter how well they build them. They will still be overweight and insufficiently durable.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Well I haven't seen what they've produced recently so I don't know.

Until they with the modern world and switch to Stainless Steel or aluminum, it doesn't matter how well they build them. They will still be overweight and insufficiently durable.

So what have the built recently?

 

[AAARGH!]

Where do they get 478,000? I don't buy that. I live in Cleveland and don't know too many people who go to Columbus or Cincy.

I would think college kids (OSU, U of Cincy) and Saturdays in the fall (Hey ALC... OH..), but what else would draw Ohioans across the state?

 

[profwebs]

Where do they get 478,000? I don't buy that. I live in Cleveland and don't know too many people who go to Columbus or Cincy.
I would think college kids (OSU, U of Cincy) and Saturdays in the fall (Hey ALC... OH..), but what else would draw Ohioans across the state?

OSU games for 1. I have a few friends and family who moved away from NE Ohio because Columbus is a better area overall. Plus I know there have to be some business travelers who would go CLE to Columbus.

Plus in cincy you have King's Island which is a nice switch from Geauga Lake and Cedar Point.

 

[AAARGH!]

Plus in cincy you have King's Island which is a nice switch from Geauga Lake and Cedar Point.

FYI: Geauga Lake is now closed (except for a water park where Sea World used to be).

I don't ever go to Kings Island because I live close to Cedar Point. There is no point (excuse the pun) to go to Kings Island when a park that is 10 times better is so close.

Unfortuantely the inverse would not be true. That is, there won't be a train stop close enough to Sandusky to attract people from Cincy or Columbus to take the train to get there. If they took the CCC train, they would then have to rent a car and drive 75 minutes to get there.

 

[profwebs]

Plus in cincy you have King's Island which is a nice switch from Geauga Lake and Cedar Point.

FYI: Geauga Lake is now closed (except for a water park where Sea World used to be).

I don't ever go to Kings Island because I live close to Cedar Point. There is no point (excuse the pun) to go to Kings Island when a park that is 10 times better is so close.

Unfortuantely the inverse would not be true. That is, there won't be a train stop close enough to Sandusky to attract people from Cincy or Columbus to take the train to get there. If they took the CCC train, they would then have to rent a car and drive 75 minutes to get there.

Haven't been to either in years, but King's Island did have a decent coaster and couple other cool rides that Cedar Point didn't have when I was there. Was a nice getaway from NE Ohio.

Also, I just asked a friend from Cleveland on Twitter who works in a market occupied by Fast paced people. Most of these people would never take the train due to the speed and he said:

@profwebs I've never been to Cincy, but if there was a train and it was affordable I'd go. What kid wouldn't want a fun train ride?

So there is interest there, although his interest seems more aligned with everyone here.