On Board Chain of Command

[Ryan]

Thanks Oldtimer and EB_OBS for your perspective. Sounds like the bones of a decent program are in place and (like everything else) with some time and effort (and money) things can really be improved.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Rumor has it there are Amtrak employees called "Spotters." In my opinion they could save that money by requiring those responsible for each individual LD train, the On Board Service Managers, to unglue themselves from their desks and climb aboard. :angry:

How many times do I have to repeat this?

Now, turning to one of the underlying themes currently running through this topic, let me once again repeat something that I have said many, many times before.

Amtrak Management Does Ride the Trains!

We currently have one now retired member who did that for a good portion of his career at Amtrak and we have one member who currently does it. Is there a manager on every train every day? No. But they are out riding the trains.

The problem isn't that management isn't riding the trains! The problem is that the employees know who the managers are. So when there is a manager around, the bad employees do their jobs. When there is no manager around, they don't. It's that simple.

Also even if they don't know who the manager is most of them just hid in there room have there meals delivered and never actually venture out of there room.

 

[AlanB]

How many times do I have to repeat this?

How many times do we have to point out that it's NOT working?

NONE!

Because it's irrelevant in the context of the original complaint.

The complaint was that managers aren't riding the trains! And that is 100% wrong! Managers are riding the trains. They are getting out from behind their desks. The aforementioned manager that retired from Amtrak about 2 years ago, at one point supervised something like 4 or 5 onboard managers. And I can assure you that he made sure that his managers weren't only sitting at their desks. And I can assure you that this man was out riding the trains under his care. This man cared so much about Amtrak and trying to enhance & fix things that he has given freely of his time for probably at least 8 years to come here and offer help & advice, as well as take things back to management.

Yes, the problem isn't being totally solved by management riding the train, in part because as I noted the employees shape up when one rides. Although things are slowly improving, clearly not as fast as we might like it, but there are improvements from where we were 10 years ago.

If people want to demand that Amtrak invoke shoppers or other methods to try and improve things; fine. I have no problems with that. But demanding and complaining that the problems exist because managers don't ride the trains is wrong. 100% wrong! And it is an insult to the managers who visit our forum to be told that they are just sitting at their desks and doing nothing.

 

[Ryan]

That sound like the exception, rather than the rule though.

The complaint that there is inadequate supervision of OBS personnel, leading to wildly varying service levels is dead accurate. One solution to that inadequate supervision is more managers and supervisors on trains. It won't fix everything, but Amtrak can't fix problems that the don't know exist.

If your complaint is simply that the statement "managers don't ride trains" needs to be amended to "some managers don't ride trains" in the name of accuracy and to protect the feelings of those managers that DO care and so kindly give their time, I agree 150%. However, your posts seem to indicate that the level of supervision provided by management is sufficient, and I disagree with equal vigor. That absolute statement is just as inaccurate going the other way. The truth lies square in the middle - just like Amtrak service, the quality of supervision likely varies wildly (in fact, I'd be willing to guess that there is some correlation between bad employees and managers that aren't seen enough out in the system). Does that mean that the good managers that you're talking about have some bad apples, or the bad managers have some superstars that don't need a strong manager to do their jobs? Of course. But overall if you increase the quality or the supervision (be it ARASA supervisors or Amtrak management), you'll increase the quality and consistency of service.

 

[VentureForth]

I can certainly attest to Alan B.'s comment that "...Amtrak management does ride the trains......"

I my recent trip on the Crescent, I had a very interesting meal with a Director Of Product Development...........

He shared virtually ALL of the frustrations that most of us at AU post about, often.

And he plans to do what about it? That's the ultimate problem. Management rides the train. Crew performs well for them. Managment also knows that when they aren't around, the crew's behavior typically deteriorates. But Management can't seem to do anything about it. I'm not anti union, but I'm anti union abuse in the way they protect the jobs of those who really could care less about their job than to bring home a paycheck with the bare minimum of effort. Amtrak employees can get fired, but it is seemingly very hard. And it seems like they get fired for little infractions over procedures rather than major infractions over customer service.

 

[cirdan]

I've gotten surveys after several trips that I've taken, and the door is always open to provide unsolicited feedback to the folks at 60 Mass Ave.

I'm not sure that the problem a lack of information flowing to Amtrak.

yeah, happened to me too. Fortunately I was very happy with the service so had nothing to complain about.

 

[cirdan]

That sound like the exception, rather than the rule though.

The complaint that there is inadequate supervision of OBS personnel, leading to wildly varying service levels is dead accurate. One solution to that inadequate supervision is more managers and supervisors on trains. It won't fix everything, but Amtrak can't fix problems that the don't know exist.

If your complaint is simply that the statement "managers don't ride trains" needs to be amended to "some managers don't ride trains" in the name of accuracy and to protect the feelings of those managers that DO care and so kindly give their time, I agree 150%. However, your posts seem to indicate that the level of supervision provided by management is sufficient, and I disagree with equal vigor. That absolute statement is just as inaccurate going the other way. The truth lies square in the middle - just like Amtrak service, the quality of supervision likely varies wildly (in fact, I'd be willing to guess that there is some correlation between bad employees and managers that aren't seen enough out in the system). Does that mean that the good managers that you're talking about have some bad apples, or the bad managers have some superstars that don't need a strong manager to do their jobs? Of course. But overall if you increase the quality or the supervision (be it ARASA supervisors or Amtrak management), you'll increase the quality and consistency of service.

There are many other reasons besides why managers should ride trains regularly. I'm pretty sure that not all employees recognise all managers so I don't think they will automatically be treated differently.

Other reasons, besides quality of staff service is so that managers are aware of the overall experience, shortcomings, possible areas for improvement that are systemic and not the fault of staff.

They should also be made to book through the normal booking system so that they expeinece that as well and pay with their own money so they can assess value for money.

 

[AlanB]

That sound like the exception, rather than the rule though.

The complaint that there is inadequate supervision of OBS personnel, leading to wildly varying service levels is dead accurate. One solution to that inadequate supervision is more managers and supervisors on trains. It won't fix everything, but Amtrak can't fix problems that the don't know exist.

If your complaint is simply that the statement "managers don't ride trains" needs to be amended to "some managers don't ride trains" in the name of accuracy and to protect the feelings of those managers that DO care and so kindly give their time, I agree 150%. However, your posts seem to indicate that the level of supervision provided by management is sufficient, and I disagree with equal vigor. That absolute statement is just as inaccurate going the other way. The truth lies square in the middle - just like Amtrak service, the quality of supervision likely varies wildly (in fact, I'd be willing to guess that there is some correlation between bad employees and managers that aren't seen enough out in the system). Does that mean that the good managers that you're talking about have some bad apples, or the bad managers have some superstars that don't need a strong manager to do their jobs? Of course. But overall if you increase the quality or the supervision (be it ARASA supervisors or Amtrak management), you'll increase the quality and consistency of service.

Actually I thought that I was rather clear on things, but I'll reiterate things.

If one wants to say that having management out on the trains isn't solving all the problems; I'd agree.

If one wants to say that there should be secret shoppers out there; again I'll agree.

But if one wishes to say that the reason, or even part of the reason, that we have all these problems is because the supervising managers aren't riding the trains and are just sitting behind their desks; then that is false!

Now is it possible that one of those managers gets out from behind their desk only to hide in their sleeping compartment for the entire trip? Sure. I have to allow for that. But if it is happening, then it is only a very select few. I've bumped into many managers out on the trains, in addition to my personal knowledge of the members here at AU who have or currently still do work the trains.

There are plenty of reasons why we have personell problems on the trains, a few and certainly not limited to this list include, worker attitudes today; union brothers protecting the lazy; the procedures put in place to protect worker's rights; the logistics of not having a fixed building that doesn't move; etc.

But management is out there riding the trains. Again, you're not going to find one on every train, but they are out there. And even some of the top level managers are out; not to mention their families. I saw former Amtrak President Alex Kummant's wife riding the Capitol Limited a few years back. Many of those attending last year's Gathering sat around a table in the Sightseer Lounge on the Eagle headed for Bloomington talking with a manager. We probably had a good half hour or longer conversation with him on all things Amtrak. And I've seen plenty of others on the trains. Our own Jishnu (JIS) ate a meal on the Capitol Limited coming back from the OTOL Fest last month with another high level manager.

So I hope that this clears up once and for all the idea that all these problems exist because managers aren't out riding the trains. They are out there! A lot!

 

[VentureForth]

Just out of curiosity, how did you recognize Alex Kummant's wife?

 

[AlanB]

Actually I didn't, but a few of us were returning from an OTOL Fest and we were chatting with our sleeping car attendant when she walked by. The attendant told us who she was after she was out of earshot.

 

[Steve4031]

In my experience, the crews based in LA tend to be better than those in Chicago and NYC. What is being done Differently in LA?

 

[Big Iron]

If blame is being pointed at Amtrak Management for inconsistent service then some culpability needs to be pointed at Amtrak's Human Resources Dept. If a theory is trying to be proven that on board employees work hard only when they know they are being watched and that service is sketchy because employess cannot be watched all the time, then Amtrak is not hiring the right people for the job. It takes a self motivated individual to perform without direct supervision.

 

[Steve4031]

The trainee that was on the Texas Eagle in the 2230 car was outstanding. It is some of the veterans that are the worst.

 

[EB_OBS]

The trainee that was on the Texas Eagle in the 2230 car was outstanding. It is some of the veterans that are the worst.

Mostly I would agree with this statement. I've noticed too, that with the economy and jobs situation the way it is, the new hires this past year have been really good quality.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There are plenty of reasons why we have personell problems on the trains, a few and certainly not limited to this list include, worker attitudes today; union brothers protecting the lazy; the procedures put in place to protect worker's rights; the logistics of not having a fixed building that doesn't move; etc. So I hope that this clears up once and for all the idea that all these problems exist because managers aren't out riding the trains. They are out there! A lot!

So, it's never about the amazing customer-focused managers, it's about those lazy unions and overzealous worker protections? I've been curious what you thought was the explanation of Amtrak's customer service problems and now I finally know. Never mind that some of the best passenger trains I've ever experienced were in countries with far more powerful unions and far stronger worker protections than what the US provides.

 

[AlanB]

There are plenty of reasons why we have personell problems on the trains, a few and certainly not limited to this list include, worker attitudes today; union brothers protecting the lazy; the procedures put in place to protect worker's rights; the logistics of not having a fixed building that doesn't move; etc. So I hope that this clears up once and for all the idea that all these problems exist because managers aren't out riding the trains. They are out there! A lot!

So, it's never about the amazing customer-focused managers, it's about those lazy unions and overzealous worker protections? I've been curious what you thought was the explanation of Amtrak's customer service problems and now I finally know. Never mind that some of the best passenger trains I've ever experienced were in countries with far more powerful unions and far stronger worker protections than what the US provides.

I'll thank you to stop putting words in my mouth and translating the things that I say to suit your needs! :angry2:

Next time try reading what I actually said and not what you think I said!

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There are plenty of reasons why we have personell problems on the trains, a few and certainly not limited to this list include, worker attitudes today; union brothers protecting the lazy; the procedures put in place to protect worker's rights; the logistics of not having a fixed building that doesn't move; etc. So I hope that this clears up once and for all the idea that all these problems exist because managers aren't out riding the trains. They are out there! A lot!

So, it's never about the amazing customer-focused managers, it's about those lazy unions and overzealous worker protections? I've been curious what you thought was the explanation of Amtrak's customer service problems and now I finally know. Never mind that some of the best passenger trains I've ever experienced were in countries with far more powerful unions and far stronger worker protections than what the US provides.

I'll thank you to stop putting words in my mouth and translating the things that I say to suit your needs! :angry2:

Next time try reading what I actually said and not what you think I said!

What part did I get wrong Alan? The part about you blaming unions? The part about you blaming worker protections? If you'd like to clarify I'd be happy to hear your clarification.

 

[AlanB]

There are plenty of reasons why we have personell problems on the trains, a few and certainly not limited to this list include, worker attitudes today; union brothers protecting the lazy; the procedures put in place to protect worker's rights; the logistics of not having a fixed building that doesn't move; etc. So I hope that this clears up once and for all the idea that all these problems exist because managers aren't out riding the trains. They are out there! A lot!

So, it's never about the amazing customer-focused managers, it's about those lazy unions and overzealous worker protections? I've been curious what you thought was the explanation of Amtrak's customer service problems and now I finally know. Never mind that some of the best passenger trains I've ever experienced were in countries with far more powerful unions and far stronger worker protections than what the US provides.

I'll thank you to stop putting words in my mouth and translating the things that I say to suit your needs! :angry2:

Next time try reading what I actually said and not what you think I said!

What part did I get wrong Alan? The part about you blaming unions? The part about you blaming worker protections? If you'd like to clarify I'd be happy to hear your clarification.

Um, all of it!

Again, try reading!

For example, I didn't blame unions. I said, and I quote just for you, "union brothers protecting the lazy". That does not imply the the "union" is lazy. It implies that some union workers are protecting their lazy brothers!

And you've been around here long enough to know that I'm one of the first to jump to the defense of the workers when someone starts spouting the nonsense that compares a maid in a hotel room to a sleeping car attendant. Or makes a comparison to a waiter/waitress' salary vs. a dining car waiter's salary. So quite clearly I don't think that they're all lazy.

So once again I'll thank you to stop putting words into my mouth!