overbooking on reserved trains

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amtrakmichigan

Lead Service Attendant
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Oct 5, 2003
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Location
Plymouth,Mi
Can one of you guys explain to me how in the world an all reserved train can be overbooked ? Obviously with a high tech computer reservation system this should never ever happen. How hard is it to program a computer to only sell as many seats a train has and no more? I was reading someones trip report that told about an overbooked train and made me think of this problem. I have encountered myself once or twice over the years. This also seems to be a problem in the airline industry too. I guess I just don't understand how it's even possible.
 
amtrakmichigan said:
Can one of you guys explain to me how in the world an all reserved train can be overbooked ? Obviously with a high tech computer reservation system this should never ever happen. How hard is it to program a computer to only sell as many seats a train has and no more? I was reading someones trip report that told about an overbooked train and made me think of this problem. I have encountered myself once or twice over the years. This also seems to be a problem in the airline industry too. I guess I just don't understand how it's even possible.
It is possible because it is done intentionally. Flights are overbooked based on an established history of ticketed passengers not showing up. The no-shows are often passengers who have booked multiple flights with the intention of flying only one.

If a flight has 120 seats and the airline knows that, on average, 10% of the confirmed passengers will not fly, then they will oversell the flight by 5% to help ensure a full or nearly full plane. If everyone actually shows up, the flight is overbooked and seats must be freed by either voluntary or involuntary bumping (no standees or lounge sitters on a plane). They will offer credits and vouchers and sometimes even cash to entice passengers to take a later flight to free-up seats. If all that fails, then they will deny boarding for some ticketed passengers. The DOT prescribes specific rules for compensation for any airline passenger holding a confirmed reservation that is denied boarding. It is quite lucrative for the bumped passenger.

Airline overbooking has dropped as the popularity of non-refundable tickets has increased. Without the ability to get a refund, and with the application of reticketing fees of $100 or more, there is a major financial penalty to book multiple flights so the number of no-shows drops and the need to overbook likewise is reduced.

Amtrak does the same thing. I witnessed it on Acela Express and reports indicate it happens on Silver Service as well. In Amtrak’s case, they do not really bump passengers. They simply have them stand, or sit in the lounge, or ride in the baggage car (only kidding): whatever they feel like. Unlike the airlines, Amtrak has no mandated compensation for these inconvenienced passengers. So, if you end up sitting 10 hours in a Amcafe because Amtrak could not seat you despite holding a ticket for a reserved coach seat, you can only ask or beg for compensation. Amtrak is under no obligation to provide anything.

In Amtrak’s defense, I am sure that no-shows are a major problem, particularly on Acela. All Acela fares are fully refundable, so there is no penalty for someone who is returning from New York to Boston in late afternoon to simply book the 4pm, 5pm, and 6pm trains, use the one ticket for the train he actually rides, and then turn in the two unused tickets for a full refund without penalty. Doing that, he (or she) is protected from trying to rebook at the last minute and finding the desired train is sold out. But, for Amtrak, that one rider represents one occupied seat and two empty, no revenue seats. So, to protect against empty seats, Amtrak might sell 330 seats for the 300 seat train and hope for the best. Amtrak is pretty stingy with operational stats, but I am willing to bet they have a 20% or higher no-show rate on Acela, particularly during the peak hour, most popular time slots.
 
The greed of companies today has gotten in the way of good customer service and satisfaction. Let's say 10% more seats for a train is sold then there actually is, then you are gambling on people not showing up. However if and when they all do show up, then you probably just lost 10% of that trains passangers for life, who will vow never to take Amtrak again because of having to sit on the floor, or stand for hours. Trying to make a couple more bucks now, will eventually make customers mad as hell, and in turn loose some business in the future. Is it worth it ? I personelly don't think so.

Another similar topic that I totally disagree with is Amtrak reselling your sleeper space if there is a no show. In my opinion when you buy that sleeper ticket and pay for it, then that's your room on that train for that day to and from two stations. If you want to show up or not is up to you, but Amtrak has no right to resell something that is already sold. If you or i tried to attempt to do something similar, we would probably find out that fraud charges were made against us. It would be much different if you paid 1/2 up front then the remainder when you boarded the train. But when the total price is paid for in advance, then it's wrong to resell the room AGAIN.
 
Your logic is simply not logical on the subject of re-selling rooms ....or anything for that matter. Hotels, car rental companies, airlines all do this, in fact it is not even a subject for discussion. If you reserve something and are a no-show, if the company can re-sell the room, airline seat, car, sleeping accommodation, etc, they must. If not, they are simply not displaying good business practices. If the ticket is refundable, and you adide by all the rules, you will get your money back. If it is non-refundable you won't .....it's as simple as that.

Also, overbooking is not greed, it is also a good business practice. No one is going to pay an airline/rail company for the empty seats of no-shows, so they have to overbook (based on historical data) to achieve maximum capacity.
 
I agree, if you don't bother to show up, than why should Amtrak leave that room empty when they could make more profit off that room? If you fail to show at the station you said you would board at, they have every right to sell that room to someone else. The only condition where I would say otherwise is if you call reservations, let them know that you will be showing up at Station X instead of Station Y because ________. That's the only possible reason why they shouldn't resell your room.
 
battalion51 said:
I agree, if you don't bother to show up, than why should Amtrak leave that room empty when they could make more profit off that room? If you fail to show at the station you said you would board at, they have every right to sell that room to someone else. The only condition where I would say otherwise is if you call reservations, let them know that you will be showing up at Station X instead of Station Y because ________. That's the only possible reason why they shouldn't resell your room.
I agree, that's why I took that precaution when we changed our destination from DLB to ORL for my recent vacation. It's perfectly sensible to follow that policy.
 
Exactly, otherwise Viewliner's room probably would've be resold way before Orlando rolled along.
 
amtrakmichigan said:
Can one of you guys explain to me how in the world an all reserved train can be overbooked ? Obviously with a high tech computer reservation system this should never ever happen. How hard is it to program a computer to only sell as many seats a train has and no more? I was reading someones trip report that told about an overbooked train and made me think of this problem. I have encountered myself once or twice over the years. This also seems to be a problem in the airline industry too. I guess I just don't understand how it's even possible.
Well James, it's probably from railfans making 4-5-6 reservations and changing and cancelling, or adding segments, and dumping all of this mess onto a ticket agents lap to straighten out. :blink: :blink:
 
battalion51 said:
Exactly, otherwise Viewliner's room probably would've be resold way before Orlando rolled along.
If that were the case (as I suspected all along), then my attendant had been misinformed on our return trip, telling us that even if we hadn't told reservations that we were changing our station that the room still wouldn't have been sold. Don't get me wrong, he was a nice guy, and one of the better attendant's I had.
 
Guest said:
Well James, it's probably from railfans making 4-5-6 reservations and changing and cancelling, or adding segments, and dumping all of this mess onto a ticket agents lap to straighten out. :blink: :blink:
Hey!!!

I am a rail fan, and when I book a trip I know exactly what I want. I dont need to make several reservations and then cancel them. Nor do I really every need to make changes. In general, I expect that most rail fans would be easier to serve because of their knowledge of the system.
 
haolerider said:
Your logic is simply not logical on the subject of re-selling rooms ....or anything for that matter. Hotels, car rental companies, airlines all do this, in fact it is not even a subject for discussion. If you reserve something and are a no-show, if the company can re-sell the room, airline seat, car, sleeping accommodation, etc, they must. If not, they are simply not displaying good business practices. If the ticket is refundable, and you adide by all the rules, you will get your money back. If it is non-refundable you won't .....it's as simple as that.
Also, overbooking is not greed, it is also a good business practice. No one is going to pay an airline/rail company for the empty seats of no-shows, so they have to overbook (based on historical data) to achieve maximum capacity.
So holerider.... If you went to a car dealer and paid for a car in cash and said I will be back in a hour to pick it up, and instaed it was an hour and a half you wouldn't expect your car to be sold to someone else would you??? Granted this is an example on a larger scale, but same principal.
 
battalion51 said:
I agree, if you don't bother to show up, than why should Amtrak leave that room empty when they could make more profit off that room? If you fail to show at the station you said you would board at, they have every right to sell that room to someone else. The only condition where I would say otherwise is if you call reservations, let them know that you will be showing up at Station X instead of Station Y because ________. That's the only possible reason why they shouldn't resell your room.
Why should Amtrak leave the room empty? If you owned a house that you rented out, and your renter said...well I am going on vacation next month here is your rent check in advance but I won't be around. What do you think would happen to you if you re-rented the house to someone else for that month and your renter found out about it? The point I am trying to make is none of us could ever get away with something like that. What makes the travel industry so special? If you book a room and I guess the whole key words here is PAY IN ADVANCE for it. Then how can they justify selling something that in a way is yours for a certain period of time?
 
amtrakmichigan said:
haolerider said:
Your logic is simply not logical on the subject of re-selling rooms ....or anything for that matter.  Hotels, car rental companies, airlines all do this, in fact it is not even a subject for discussion.  If you reserve something and are a no-show, if the company can re-sell the room, airline seat, car, sleeping accommodation, etc, they must.  If not, they are simply not displaying good business practices.  If the ticket is refundable, and you adide by all the rules, you will get your money back.  If it is non-refundable you won't .....it's as simple as that.
Also, overbooking is not greed, it is also a good business practice.  No one is going to pay an airline/rail company for the empty seats of no-shows, so they have to overbook (based on historical data) to achieve maximum capacity.
So holerider.... If you went to a car dealer and paid for a car in cash and said I will be back in a hour to pick it up, and instaed it was an hour and a half you wouldn't expect your car to be sold to someone else would you??? Granted this is an example on a larger scale, but same principal.
Actually this is not the same principle. In this case you seem to be implying that you brought the car, since you used the word sold. That makes it your property.

One is only renting a hotel room or an Amtrak sleeper, they are not the proud new owners of that room. That makes this comparison vastly different and unworkable.
 
A "principal" is an administrator at a school and has nothing to do with how the travel industry operates.
 
amtrakmichigan said:
battalion51 said:
I agree, if you don't bother to show up, than why should Amtrak leave that room empty when they could make more profit off that room? If you fail to show at the station you said you would board at, they have every right to sell that room to someone else. The only condition where I would say otherwise is if you call reservations, let them know that you will be showing up at Station X instead of Station Y because ________. That's the only possible reason why they shouldn't resell your room.
Why should Amtrak leave the room empty? If you owned a house that you rented out, and your renter said...well I am going on vacation next month here is your rent check in advance but I won't be around. What do you think would happen to you if you re-rented the house to someone else for that month and your renter found out about it? The point I am trying to make is none of us could ever get away with something like that. What makes the travel industry so special? If you book a room and I guess the whole key words here is PAY IN ADVANCE for it. Then how can they justify selling something that in a way is yours for a certain period of time?
There is one major difference between your example Jamie, and the reselling of rooms. :) The word no-show doesn't appear in your example. In your example the renter handed the check to the landlord and specifically told him that he would not be there for part of the month.

In the case of Amtrak or a Hotel, the renter was a no-show. They never showed up, called, or otherwise informed anyone that they would be late. Now while it would be impractical for this to happen on Amtrak, in the case of a hotel the following would constitute a valid argument.

You had a reservation at a hotel from the 15th of the month thru the 20th of the month. On the day you were to arrive, you called and said I’m going to be arriving one day late on the 16th now. Assuming that you did that, and then arrived on the 16th to claim your room and it was unavailable, then you would be within your rights to protest the lack of a room. This also assumes that you have a guaranteed reservation that’s being held by a credit card.

However the hotel would still be within its rights to rent out your room on the 15th since they knew that you would not be arriving.

Finally there are major differences in the laws governing short term rentals (ie. Hotels and the like) vs. long term rentals that constitute your home.
 
Well, I think we have beaten this one to death.......amtrakmichigan: Don't be a no-show and there won't be a problem.
 
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