Palmetto 89 Incident in Chester, Pa. (4/3/16)

[John Bobinyec]

I heard on GMA - ABC news something to the effect of questioning why PTC did not stop the train. :blink:

The collision occurred on track 3. If track 3 at that location was out of service for track work, and the dispatcher had entered it into the computer correctly, PTC should have stopped the train. However, if the backhoe fouled track 3 without proper authorization, then PTC would have done nothing.

jb

 

[AmtrakBlue]

From my uneducated perspective, I can't see how the backhoe was fully on the track, as news illustrations have shown, since the damage to 627 is lopsided.

I am one who will wait for the official investigation rather than believe the news and other <unreliable> sources.

 

[jis]

I heard on GMA - ABC news something to the effect of questioning why PTC did not stop the train. :blink:

The collision occurred on track 3. If track 3 at that location was out of service for track work, and the dispatcher had entered it into the computer correctly, PTC should have stopped the train. However, if the backhoe fouled track 3 without proper authorization, then PTC would have done nothing.
jb

For those of you with membership access to trainorders, there is some very good and pertinent discussion and information there. Just in case you are curious and have access, you might want to go and take a look there.

The one sentence summary would be that it is conceivable that there was a phenomenal cockup in getting and releasing possession of track for maintenance. One group of people thought that they had possession while another group thought that they did not. Let's just leave it at that for now.

 

[cirdan]

if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?

 

[jis]

if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?

It was not shorting the two rails. Hence no effect on signal.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Track maintenance equipment does not shunt signal circuits ( at least not reliably) so can not be trusted.

but then again the Back hoe was on outside track (4) while train was on inside track (3)

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?

It was not shorting the two rails. Hence no effect on signal.

Why was the track designed to short out if two rails were obstructed and not just one?

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

We're not sick of foamers, we're sick of people who don't know what they're talking about and pretend that they do.

Tell you the truth, I'm a researcher, not a philosopher! And I've heard from other railfans and railroad workers that locos with frame damage have a tendency to get written off! A loco with frame damage has a higher chance of getting written off than getting repaired!
I'm not being a know-it-all, I'm telling you what I've heard from others before! So there!

Prove it has frame damage.

Someone else said it on the Internet, therefore it must be true.

Look at the pictures of it on Google Images! Look at how beat up the frame is on the front of the locomotive!

 

[keelhauled]

The whole point of a frame is that it is an interior component that supports the exterior. It is not visible from the outside. What is obviously wrecked is the sheet metal and whatever material makes up the crumple zone, which is designed to absorb the impact of a collision and has clearly done its job. It is impossible to tell from distant pictures what the state of the interior and structure of the locomotive is.

 

[John Bobinyec]

if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?

It was not shorting the two rails. Hence no effect on signal.

Why was the track designed to short out if two rails were obstructed and not just one?

Track circuits are designed to detect the presence of a locomotive or railcar on the track. Electricity is flowing down one rail. When the equipment shunts the circuit, the electricity is conducted over to the other rail by the wheels and axles on the cars/locomotives. The other rail completes the circuit back to the signal equipment. That sets the signals. Having the track obstructed won't activate the signals unless the obstruction completes the track circuit.

Also, the absence of electricity due to a broken rail will also activate the signal system.

jb

 

[Ryan]

if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?

It was not shorting the two rails. Hence no effect on signal.

Why was the track designed to short out if two rails were obstructed and not just one?

A) Go learn the basics of how track signaling works and you'll see why.

B) What makes you think that one rail was contacted?

 

[Ryan]

Look at the pictures of it on Google Images! Look at how beat up the frame is on the front of the locomotive!

I've seen pictures of it. Unlike you, I don't have X-Ray vision to see what's going on inside to make that determination.

 

[JoeBas]

A) Go learn the basics of how track signaling works and you'll see why.
B) What makes you think that one rail was contacted?

Seriously. If you don't even understand this much basic info on how the signals work, you should be asking more questions and making fewer statements.

 

[PVD]

It isn't a complete circuit without 2 sides. In simple terms, that can be rail to rail across a piece of equipment, across a shunt or termination type resistor to allow for monitoring of rails for breaks or faults to ground. Contact with only one side doesnt cut it.

 

[FormerOBS]

One photo showed a rubber tire from the wrecked backhoe.

Even if one or both rails were contaced, rubber don't conduct no lectricity.

Tom

 

[jis]

A) Go learn the basics of how track signaling works and you'll see why.
B) What makes you think that one rail was contacted?

Seriously. If you don't even understand this much basic info on how the signals work, you should be asking more questions and making fewer statements.

Or using Google or Bing to educate yourself. Much more efficient than asking questions here on basic stuff IMHO.

 

[PVD]

Good point, unless it was "hi-railer" style equipment with both rubber tires and steel wheels, but I haven't seen a picture of the actual equipment and am not going to speculate.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Or using Google or Bing to educate yourself. Much more efficient than asking questions here on basic stuff IMHO.

Some AUers seem to have an aversion to googling.

 

[jis]

Good point, unless it was "hi-railer" style equipment with both rubber tires and steel wheels, but I haven't seen a picture of the actual equipment and am not going to speculate.

So far no one has claimed that the signal system did not work correctly, which would indicate that the track circuit was not completed by the back hoe. The more pertinent question to ask is, if the back hoe was really authorized to be on that track why the track was not shorted as apparently is the rule, by a standard track circuit shunt. But that is another thing that we will need to wait for the NTSB's findings.

One should never depend on a lightweight track equipment to provide the shunt for affecting the signaling system They are known not to be too reliable at that.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?

Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.

 

[John Bobinyec]

And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?

Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.

What's the source for the speed at the time of the accident?

How do you know exactly where it derailed? What's the source for that?

jb

And by the way, the NTSB is the official agency that writes the report on accidents like these. They are very thorough. Be advised that it usually takes them about a year to issue the report, so we won't find out the details officially until then.

 

[PVD]

At this point, 2 things are happenning repeatedly: folks are either re stating the obvious "if a backhoe was on the active track someone made a mistake" , or engaging in speculation with little basis in verified facts. Perhaps a count to ten and take a deep breath is in order.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?

Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.

What's the source for the speed at the time of the accident?

How do you know exactly where it derailed? What's the source for that?

jb

I suspect he read it in a newspaper article as a passenger on the train had stated they were going "full bore" at 50-60 mph. Hmm, I'd think "full bore" on that stretch would be 110 mph.

Another of CSXfoamer's reliable sources, I guess.

 

[Ryan]

And also, I found the speed was between 50 and 60 MPH at the time of the accident, however, is it known yet whether the engineer used his brakes or not?

Because, it sure was unusual for it to travel a mile after it derailed. Never in my life have I ever known a train to travel a mile after derailing, especially after hitting a heavy duty vehicle.

How much experience is that, exactly?

 

[CCC1007]

if the backhoe was on that track, wouldn't that have tripped track circuits and turned signals to red?

It was not shorting the two rails. Hence no effect on signal.

Why was the track designed to short out if two rails were obstructed and not just one?

Physics dictates that the track circuit sa designed cannot be shorted by just touching one rail.