Passenger dies after exiting train en route

[oldtimer]

All of the upper level doors on Superliners have two bars that are held in position (Up or Down)by spring loaded latches.

These latches when in the down position usually require two hands to release and there are no instructions in the area regarding their release. These bars are latched down when any Superliner train except the EB is backed down to CUS from 14th St Coach yard. The conductor uses a backup hose connected to the brake pipe to stop the train in CUS. The rear door of the consist is disarmed (Power to the door open push plates is removed) and the door is locked with a coach key.

The fact that the poor soul was fatally injured was probably due to him or someone opening a vestibule door. This has happened in the past. "Inside Edition" did a story on this being done by an elderly female passenger several years ago. Amtrak has had several safety campaigns regrading the latching of safety bars and securing all outside doors. The vestibule doors MUST be easy to open as they are primary emergency exits and entrances for first responders. Keep in mind if you are ever called upon to open one that they are balanced to control the 400# + weight on level ground, if the car is not level or the door is damaged that weight may come at you.

Amtrak does recommend that elderly passengers or those that cannot take care of themselves to travel with a companion.

I speak from 30 years experience working on Superliners, and 10 years prior to their release.

Thank You

OT II

 

[EB_OBS]

.......I don't know how easy it would be for a person to get out through a rear door, assuming that it had been left unlocked. I also don't know how easy it would be for train crewmen to leave the door unlocked without one of them noticing it. I would think that the door has some indicator obvious to crew members indicating that it was locked, but I could be wrong.

Remember that there is no special "rear" door, it is simply one of the two end doors on every Superliner. We need to find someone who actually knows the required procedures for securing the rear of the train,

Incorrect.

The final door of a consist is locked so that a pax cannot simply hit the switch to open it, it would require either a key or emergency operation. In addition, as was previously stated, and debated, there are two steel bars that are put there by the operating crew and secured. It is not "simply" anything, if secured properly (which is hard to image it was not) it should be only possible to open during emergency operation.

Those bars are just held into place by gravity, basically. Its not a complicated procedure to remove them.

No, there are spring loaded latches that can actually be hard to depress sometimes.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The fact that the poor soul was fatally injured was probably due to him or someone opening a vestibule door. This has happened in the past. "Inside Edition" did a story on this being done by an elderly female passenger several years ago. Amtrak has had several safety campaigns regrading the latching of safety bars and securing all outside doors. The vestibule doors MUST be easy to open as they are primary emergency exits and entrances for first responders. Keep in mind if you are ever called upon to open one that they are balanced to control the 400# + weight on level ground, if the car is not level or the door is damaged that weight may come at you.

Tthank you for the information, I'm sure it will make some people who think that the man just walked out of the back of the train realize that the side doors are the way this happened.

 

[RTOlson]

The rear door of the consist is disarmed (Power to the door open push plates is removed) and the door is locked with a coach key.

We're going in circles about this. How can Amtrak lock the rear End Door when it is part of a passenger's emergency escape routes?

It, along with the upper windows, are the last resort (after going to the next car in the consist and trying the lower doors and windows). A Flickr user uploaded photos of the Amtrak Superliner Customer Safety Instructions. Here is the relevant detail:

CAUTION: Beware of steep drop through the upper level emergency windows and the last End Door on the train. Use only as a last resort.

So I still doubt they actually "lock" the door. If Amtrak does this, they probably need to update the emergency procedures so a passenger doesn't find out the hard way about this.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I stand corrected. I must be thinking of other car types.

In anycase, it is not impossible that what I suggested happened. I can't be wrong because I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just putting forth a theory and stating that it is a reasonable possibility and asking you not to keep acting like my theory is impossible. Actually, if you remember (go look at the top of this thread) I put forth both theories. I have no idea which is correct, or if neither is correct. I don't actually care.

I just want to be at the International Darwin Award Ceremony when this doofus gets his award.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The rear door of the consist is disarmed (Power to the door open push plates is removed) and the door is locked with a coach key.

We're going in circles about this. How can Amtrak lock the rear End Door when it is part of a passenger's emergency escape routes?

It, along with the upper windows, are the last resort (after going to the next car in the consist and trying the lower doors and windows). A Flickr user uploaded photos of the Amtrak Superliner Customer Safety Instructions. Here is the relevant detail:

CAUTION: Beware of steep drop through the upper level emergency windows and the last End Door on the train. Use only as a last resort.

So I still doubt they actually "lock" the door. If Amtrak does this, they probably need to update the emergency procedures so a passenger doesn't find out the hard way about this.

All doors can be opened manually. You can trip all doors into emergency mode using the little red switch. By flipping this switch all door units can be pulled open without power. As a matter of fact, if doors fail en route (which happens all the time, esp in winter) you can muscle the door open without using the emergency switch however this does require muscle (and I mean it) I once helped this elderly Japanese woman who had been trapped in the vestibule and couldn't get the switch to work right, I was on the other end of the door and tried my switch but it didn't work. It was a cold January day on the Penny, all the doors were freezing and failing. It took me a moment but I managed to force the door opened.

As for the last door, I don't think you can open it without a coach key. In an emergency, the AC, SA, or Conductor should be able to open the door and check to make sure the track is clear before helping with the evacuation.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I stand corrected. I must be thinking of other car types.
In anycase, it is not impossible that what I suggested happened. I can't be wrong because I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just putting forth a theory and stating that it is a reasonable possibility and asking you not to keep acting like my theory is impossible. Actually, if you remember (go look at the top of this thread) I put forth both theories. I have no idea which is correct, or if neither is correct. I don't actually care.

I just want to be at the International Darwin Award Ceremony when this doofus gets his award.

Never speak ill of the dead.

I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Never speak ill of the dead.

Yes, mom.

I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.

Under reasonable circumstances, men do not come cascading out of the Southwest Chief.

 

[RTOlson]

I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.

Given that the investigation is ongoing, it is in the realm of possibility that the man may have used either the rear End Door or the lower-level vestibules.

The rear End Door is likely improbable, but not impossible (again in the absence of any evidence to the contrary). That fact that actual Amtrak documents show the rear End Door an emergency escape for passengers demonstrates this possibility. To this point, no one has refuted this passenger safety card (although there have been undocumented claims about the rear End Door being locked).

It's possible, nothing more. That's all there is until the investigation is complete.

 

[EB_OBS]

The rear-end door is locked with a coach key. Up on the top, on one side of the door is a key slot which a coach key fits.

If the rear door wasn't locked, how many passengers would be opening this door all the time? Without it being locked it's way too simple for any joker to flip the switch and press the button and open it.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I don't understand why you defend a theory which is, by all senses, impossible. In fact you can't even defend it as being possible with any "reasonable" circumstance.

Given that the investigation is ongoing, it is in the realm of possibility that the man may have used either the rear End Door or the lower-level vestibules.

The rear End Door is likely improbable, but not impossible (again in the absence of any evidence to the contrary). That fact that actual Amtrak documents show the rear End Door an emergency escape for passengers demonstrates this possibility. To this point, no one has refuted this passenger safety card (although there have been undocumented claims about the rear End Door being locked).

It's possible, nothing more. That's all there is until the investigation is complete.

"Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence..."

They said the same things about WMDs in Iraq.

 

[RTOlson]

The rear-end door is locked with a coach key. Up on the top, on one side of the door is a key slot which a coach key fits.

If that is the truly the case, then Amtrak needs to revise its Superliner passenger safety card. Amtrak could be providing wrong information that may be fatal in an emergency.

If the rear End Door is indeed locked, no passenger could be reasonably expected to use it as a (last-resort) emergency exit. The provided safety card gives no information about the door being locked and about needing assistance from on-board staff.

I believe I will contact Amtrak about my concerns.

Even if it were standard operating procedure to lock the rear End Door, the investigation would need to show that this procedure was followed. This, again, doesn't exclude the possibility that the victim may have exited the rear End Door.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The rear-end door is locked with a coach key. Up on the top, on one side of the door is a key slot which a coach key fits.

If that is the truly the case, then Amtrak needs to revise its Superliner passenger safety card. Amtrak could be providing wrong information that may be fatal in an emergency.

If the rear End Door is indeed locked, no passenger could be reasonably expected to use it as a (last-resort) emergency exit. The provided safety card gives no information about the door being locked and about needing assistance from on-board staff.

I believe I will contact Amtrak about my concerns.

Even if it were standard operating procedure to lock the rear End Door, the investigation would need to show that this procedure was followed. This, again, doesn't exclude the possibility that the victim may have exited the rear End Door.

Um... if there were an emergency there are no less than five coach keys and five people trained to assist an evacuation. This is why it is last resort. Remember that the guide tells you to cross from car to car but not use the last door, rather it guides you to a clear car with a crew member who conducts the evacuation.

If that door was NOT locked, think of how often it would be opened (either purposefully or accidentally)... this thread is an endless debate of how it might be "possible" that a man lost his life that way-- well, if that door wasn't kept locked then this would happen more often.

 

[RTOlson]

The side of the card that details the emergency exits and escape procedures does not mention that crew assistance is needed for any escape option. That said, the other side of the card has a section for "In An Emergency." This mentions seeking staff assistance and details the exits if no staff is available (the rear End Door isn't listed in this section).

In any case, I plan to contact Amtrak's Office of System Safety about this because it is unclear.

At this point, I believe I'll step aside and await the outcome of the investigation and the disclosure of their findings. This discussion has been informative, to a point, but I believe all things remain possible. I hope that investigators are seeking all possibilities, regardless of how improbable they may be.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

well, if that door wasn't kept locked then this would happen more often.

I think your missing my point. I'm not saying that the door isn't usually locked. I'm saying in this one instance, in this particular case, something went wrong and the door wasn't locked. That's the theory. Obviously, the more often that mistake occured, the more often it would result in a loss of life. In any case, I think we have made each other's opinions abundantly clear. We could go on for 5 more pages with childish "Yes it can", and "No it can'ts", but it wouldn't accomplish much other then wearing out our keyboards. So let us agree to disagree.

 

[GG-1]

Aloha

I am writing this as Moderator. The last dozen messages border on improper and unfounded speculation. If this does not stop I will close this thread until such time as an official explanation.

Since I became a moderator whatever time ago I have never seen so many different posters and messages be so far from proper discussion.

Enough already

Mahalo

Eric

 

[amtkstn]

Well said, this topic is getting old and boring.

 

[Ryan]

Perhaps the greatest webcomic ever is relevant here:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Perhaps the greatest webcomic ever is relevant here:

Oh, I love XKCD.

 

[GG-1]

Death is not a joke, I was not joking, I am sorry that this was not understood the topic is closed.