Passenger train service to Phoenix AZ.

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railpost

Service Attendant
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Messages
100
Location
Chicago
I am sure that many of you are well aware that Phoenix Az has not had direct passenger train service since June of 1996 and even before the Sunset Limited was rerouted out of Phoenix the service was inadequate just as it is today with Tri Weekly Service from Los Angeles to New Orleans with connections to Chicago at San Antonio via the Texas Eagle. The Union Pacific Railroad which acquired the Southern Pacific has since taken a portion of the route through Phoenix out of service east of Yuma Az and Amtrak apparently isn't willing to pay to cost asked from Union Pacific to restore the line.
There is another way to restore daily service to Phoenix Az and that in the BNSF "branch line" better known at the "Peavine" line which goes south from the ex Santa Fe mainline at WIlliams Junction Arizona and goes to Phoenix via Wickenburg Az.
Until June of 1969 there was a daily overnight train that connected with various Chicago to California Santa Fe Trains on the mainline. The Train was number 47 southbound and 42 northbound. As a rule there was through sleeping car service to and from Chicago on that train from December 1st through April 25th and the rest of year the both the sleeping car and coach passengers would have to change trains at Williams Junction. Before 1960 the connecting point was in Ash Fork Arizona but due to a major main line relocation the connecting point was changed to Williams Junction.
The seasonal through sleeper service lasted until 1967 and the train itself was discontinued in June of 1969. The train or trains that carried the through sleepers to and from Chicago varied but in the later years the through sleeper would go one way on the San Franciso Chief and the other way on the Chief or the Grand Canyon. Before the mid 50s the through sleeper would usually come and go on the Chief but it sometimes depended on the year that it was.
The train would usually leave Willams Junction at about 1 am and arrive Phoenix around 7 am and going northbound it would usually leave Phoenix around 4 pm and arrive Williams Junction around 9;30 pm. While the Super Chief didn't run through sleepers to Phoenix and they were usually carried on the Chief or the San Francisco Chief it would make perfect sense Amtrak would run a through coach and perhaps a seasonal through sleeper on the Southwest Chief to Phoenix.
In the early days of Amtrak around 1971/72 when the Private Auto Train Corporation also began there was even some talk of Amtrak running an Auto Train to Arizona from the Midwest. Of course it was never seriously pursued.
My main point is that if Amtrak ran either through or connecting service to Phoenix on a daily basis they could probably do it on a faster schedule than the current tri weekly Eagle/Sunset Limited connection.
 
I am sure that many of you are well aware that Phoenix Az has not had direct passenger train service since June of 1996 and even before the Sunset Limited was rerouted out of Phoenix the service was inadequate just as it is today with Tri Weekly Service from Los Angeles to New Orleans with connections to Chicago at San Antonio via the Texas Eagle. The Union Pacific Railroad which acquired the Southern Pacific has since taken a portion of the route through Phoenix out of service east of Yuma Az and Amtrak apparently isn't willing to pay to cost asked from Union Pacific to restore the line.
There is another way to restore daily service to Phoenix Az and that in the BNSF "branch line" better known at the "Peavine" line which goes south from the ex Santa Fe mainline at WIlliams Junction Arizona and goes to Phoenix via Wickenburg Az.
Until June of 1969 there was a daily overnight train that connected with various Chicago to California Santa Fe Trains on the mainline. The Train was number 47 southbound and 42 northbound. As a rule there was through sleeping car service to and from Chicago on that train from December 1st through April 25th and the rest of year the both the sleeping car and coach passengers would have to change trains at Williams Junction. Before 1960 the connecting point was in Ash Fork Arizona but due to a major main line relocation the connecting point was changed to Williams Junction.
The seasonal through sleeper service lasted until 1967 and the train itself was discontinued in June of 1969. The train or trains that carried the through sleepers to and from Chicago varied but in the later years the through sleeper would go one way on the San Franciso Chief and the other way on the Chief or the Grand Canyon. Before the mid 50s the through sleeper would usually come and go on the Chief but it sometimes depended on the year that it was.
The train would usually leave Willams Junction at about 1 am and arrive Phoenix around 7 am and going northbound it would usually leave Phoenix around 4 pm and arrive Williams Junction around 9;30 pm. While the Super Chief didn't run through sleepers to Phoenix and they were usually carried on the Chief or the San Francisco Chief it would make perfect sense Amtrak would run a through coach and perhaps a seasonal through sleeper on the Southwest Chief to Phoenix.
In the early days of Amtrak around 1971/72 when the Private Auto Train Corporation also began there was even some talk of Amtrak running an Auto Train to Arizona from the Midwest. Of course it was never seriously pursued.
My main point is that if Amtrak ran either through or connecting service to Phoenix on a daily basis they could probably do it on a faster schedule than the current tri weekly Eagle/Sunset Limited connection.
Interesting thought. Perhaps this could run as a separate section of the Southwest Chief that would be split off at Flagstaff. It could make a stop at Williams to connect with the GCRwy then continue on to Phoenix arriving there early the next morning. Return trip would leave Phoenix in the late evening to arrive at FLG in time to connect with the Eastbound SWC.
 
Yes that is exactly the point that I am trying to make. It would be a great idea if there was a Phoenix section on the Southwest Chief. The Sante Fe Railway ran the connecting train for years and while the through sleepers (which were seasonal) usually ran on the Chief and on the San Francisco Chief there is no reason wny they couldn't run a coach and a sleeper from Chicago to Phoenix on the Southwest Chief and it would probably make better time than on the current Eagle/Sunset route.
 
I'm going to ask a possibly stupid question: is the trackage between Yuma and Phoenix in place and in use? Because some googling comes up with cites that it's not only intact but used for infrequent freight service, and other cites that the tracks were pulled up somewhere between Buckeye or Palo Verde and Wellton. Open Railway Map seems to show it as an intact branch line all the way from Wellton eastward until it meets main-line tracks near downtown Phoenix.

If it's in-use, it seems to me that track sufficient to carry freight trains safely, even if very slowly, could accommodate the Sunset Ltd. to Phoenix proper, with any slow running more than outweighed by direct service into Phoenix rather than Maricopa. Investment would be needed for a daily Sunset and/or L.A.-Phoenix-Tucson corridor service as in Amtrak Connects, but I can't see much needed (other than $ to reopen Phoenix station) for just a Phoenix reroute of the Sunset Ltd. if the whole line is in any kind of use.

Edited to add: looking at the distance of over 100 miles, I shouldn't say "any slow running" is outweighed by direct service to Phoenix. Service at 10mph, for instance, wouldn't be worth it.
 
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There is a logistical problem with the current ex Southern Pacific route and that a portion of the route east of Yuma Arizona is not in service. I really don't know how much work needs to be done to get it back in service however. If the ex Sante Fe "Peavine route" from Williams Junction were used, I believe that they would be able to get to Phoenix as there are currently some freight trains using that route to Glendale Az which is where there is a freight yard. There is also line which is now part of the Arizona Central which goes west from Wickenburg from the "Peavine route" into California and connects to the ex Santa Fe east west mainline in Cadiz which used to have passenger connection into the early 1960s. I have my doubts as to the shape of that route however the route to Williams Junction is operable and why shouldn't they be able run a train to connect with both the westbound and the eastbound Southwest Chiefs as they go through there in the middle of the night.
 
I'm going to ask a possibly stupid question: is the trackage between Yuma and Phoenix in place and in use? Because some googling comes up with cites that it's not only intact but used for infrequent freight service, and other cites that the tracks were pulled up somewhere between Buckeye or Palo Verde and Wellton. Open Railway Map seems to show it as an intact branch line all the way from Wellton eastward until it meets main-line tracks near downtown Phoenix.

If it's in-use, it seems to me that track sufficient to carry freight trains safely, even if very slowly, could accommodate the Sunset Ltd. to Phoenix proper, with any slow running more than outweighed by direct service into Phoenix rather than Maricopa. Investment would be needed for a daily Sunset and/or L.A.-Phoenix-Tucson corridor service as in Amtrak Connects, but I can't see much needed (other than $ to reopen Phoenix station) for just a Phoenix reroute of the Sunset Ltd. if the whole line is in any kind of use.
While I don't know for a fact those tracks east of Yuma may still be there which would be great. I really don't see how they have let Phoenix go without direct service for so long. Even in 1996 when the service was cut it seemed to me that the Amtrak managment was very lax in letting the Union Pacific get away with cutting the service. I am aware that about a year earlier there was intentional sabotage not to far west of Phoenix that caused a fatal derailment of the Sunset Limited. It was a professional job as according to what I had read the people or persons who sabotaged the track had reconnected them with wire so that there would be no signal interuptions and which would have warned them of trouble. There is no question that daily service need to be restored to Phoenix which if it ever does happen would be the first daily service in over 52 years as even when Amtrak did serve Phoenix it had never in Amtraks history run the Sunset Limited daily. I recall that in the early 70 to mid 70s when Amtrak was still new there was talk of even starting an Auto Train service to Southern Arizona. It's amazing how there are large cities and metro areas in the Southwest that don't have daily service. While Houston presently has tri weekly service they at least did have daily service to Chicago for several years in the early days of Amtrak.
 
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While I don't know for a fact those tracks east of Yuma may still be there which would be great. I really don't see how they have let Phoenix go without direct service for so long. Even in 1996 when the service was cut it seemed to me that the Amtrak managment was very lax in letting the Union Pacific get away with cutting the service. I am aware that about a year earlier there was intentional sabotage not to far west of Phoenix that caused a fatal derailment of the Sunset Limited. It was a professional job as according to what I had read the people or persons who sabotaged the track had reconnected them with wire so that there would be no signal interuptions and which would have warned them of trouble. There is no question that daily service need to be restored to Phoenix which if it ever does happen would be the first daily service in over 52 years as even when Amtrak did serve Phoenix it had never in Amtraks history run the Sunset Limited daily. I recall that in the early 70 to mid 70s when Amtrak was still new there was talk of even starting an Auto Train service to Southern Arizona. It's amazing how there are large cities and metro areas in the Southwest that don't have daily service. While Houston presently has tri weekly service they at least did have daily service to Chicago for several years in the early days of Amtrak.
Houston(also extends to Galveston ) also has a Daily contracted Thruway that connects with the Texas Eagle in Longview which can get you to Chicago.
 
Main problem with the Peavine is that it's slow. The winding route is unsignalled, and the route between Williams and Ash Fork was bypassed by the mainline for good reason. A big potential market is Phoenix to Los Angeles, but this route is useless for it.

Santa Fe used to operate a train via Parker, but that was discontinued in the mid 1950s. Santa Fe never had a great connection from Phoenix to LA. The rise of Asian container shipments came long after the current routes were set. Were they doing the reroute now they'd probably keep the line west of Ash Fork rather than east.

The UP Phoenix west line is out of service between Palo Verde nuclear plant and Roll, just northeast of Yuma, but hasn't been abandoned. It would require a full track and signal replacement between those points to reopen it.

There's been some rumors that UP wants to reopen it, but is playing chicken with Amtrak and the governmental authorities hoping they'll pay for it.
 
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The Amtrak Connects Map only talks about local service Tuscan to Phoenix and separate service Phoenix to LA, but not the LD service being rerouted. Is that because that's the FRA's bailiwick? but shouldn't they coordinate and at what point?
 
Main problem with the Peavine is that it's slow. The winding route is unsignalled, and the route between Williams and Ash Fork was bypassed by the mainline for good reason. A big potential market is Phoenix to Los Angeles, but this route is useless for it.

Santa Fe used to operate a train via Parker, but that was discontinued in the mid 1950s. Santa Fe never had a great connection from Phoenix to LA. The rise of Asian container shipments came long after the current routes were set. Were they doing the reroute now they'd probably keep the line west of Ash Fork rather than east.

The UP Phoenix west line is out of service between Palo Verde nuclear plant and Roll, just northeast of Yuma, but hasn't been abandoned. It would require a full track and signal replacement between those points to reopen it.

There's been some rumors that UP wants to reopen it, but is playing chicken with Amtrak and the governmental authorities hoping they'll pay for it.
Thanks for bringing up those details on the Peavine route out of WIllams Junction and yes it is a slow route which is probably the reason that at least in the 1960s and most of the 50s the Santa Fe only ran an overnight connecting train to the mainline however an overnight connecting train is just fine as that is all you need for a connecting service to get you into Phoenix in the morning. As there were several overnight trains that arrived in WIlliams Junction late at night or in the wee hours of the morning. I'll give you an example. In 1963 the southbound train from WIlliams Number 47 departed at 1am. The west bound Grand Canyon arrived that 12;30 am for a relatively quick connection however the connection from the San Francisco Chief was also promoted even though they arrived WIlliams Junction at 9:45 pm and the Super Chief and El Capitan would arrive at 10;35 pm. This was the Spring and Summer schedule so there was no through sleepers however in the late fall and winter there was a through sleeper. Either way people from the San Francisco Chief and the Super Chief and El Capitan would lay over at Williams Junction for a few hour and they would arrive in Phoenix in the morning at 7 am after a 6 hour train ride overnight. So for faster service to Los Angeles the ex Southern Pacific route to Los Angeles is needed but for service to Chicago the connection through Williams Junction from the BNSF mainline is more than adequate because you would have a morning arrival on that train. It would be faster and more direct then the current Eagle Sunset Limited route.
 
A few years ago we took the Sunset Limited to get near Phoenix. You leave the train at Maricopa, then go a bit north to Phoenix by a 9 pm bus or Uber. Our train arrived 4 hours late (1am instead of 9 pm). No bus, no Uber, no taxi. We had to beg and bribe a pick-up service van to take us along with the group who had hired them. So, don't even think about a train connection.
 
I agree, a Chicago-Phoenix service would be a fine addition to the system, and if I were going to add a western Auto-Train, that's the first set of endpoints I would consider for it (in the Northwest there are a ton of Arizona snowbirds, but there might be even more in the Midwest.) Yes, it's a slow branch, with few places to stop, so running overnight makes excellent sense.

In my fantasies of twice-daily service on every route, I make the 2nd train on the ex-Santa Fe a San Francisco Chief with a Phoenix section.
 
That's not a bad idea and as I said when the Santa Fe ran a Chicago to Phoenix sleeper which as a rule was from December through April that Sleeper would often run one way on the San Francisco Chief and the other way on the Chief and it would sometime also run on the Grand Canyon.
I don't know how familiar you are with the Pre Amtrak Chief but during most of the 50's and the 60s it ran on a One night out schedule westbound from Chicago to Los Angeles. Before that it ran on a 2 night out schedule until the early 50s and that's when the Chicago Phoenix sleeper ran both ways on the Chief. The Chief also had been an all Pullman train however when they changed its schedule in the early 50s they added coaches. By the late 50s thats when the Chicago Phoenix sleeper ran on different trains depending on the year. There is no question that Chicago Phoenix service on that route would be a boon to ridership and would futher enhance the service. I don't know if you are familiar with Andrew Seldon from the United Rail Passenger Alliance but in the mid 1980s he wrote a very good article in Trains Magazine the should how ridership on the Southwest Chief could really expand if they added more connecting services to it such as Minneapolis to Kansas City, St Louis to Kansas City , Denver to La Junta and a section from Bakersfield to Oakland which in effect would bring back the San Francisco Chief.
 
If direct rail service to Phoenix were to be restored, I believe restoring the former SP route would be the better choice, unless they could do it a lot cheaper using that "Peavine" line.
Speaking historically, I believe the best service between Chicago and Phoenix was offered by the Rock Island - Southern Pacific "Golden State".

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/goldstate194812.html
 
I'm going to ask a possibly stupid question: is the trackage between Yuma and Phoenix in place and in use? Because some googling comes up with cites that it's not only intact but used for infrequent freight service, and other cites that the tracks were pulled up somewhere between Buckeye or Palo Verde and Wellton. Open Railway Map seems to show it as an intact branch line all the way from Wellton eastward until it meets main-line tracks near downtown Phoenix.

If it's in-use, it seems to me that track sufficient to carry freight trains safely, even if very slowly, could accommodate the Sunset Ltd. to Phoenix proper, with any slow running more than outweighed by direct service into Phoenix rather than Maricopa. Investment would be needed for a daily Sunset and/or L.A.-Phoenix-Tucson corridor service as in Amtrak Connects, but I can't see much needed (other than $ to reopen Phoenix station) for just a Phoenix reroute of the Sunset Ltd. if the whole line is in any kind of use.

Edited to add: looking at the distance of over 100 miles, I shouldn't say "any slow running" is outweighed by direct service to Phoenix. Service at 10mph, for instance, wouldn't be worth it.
The lines in a state where it needs a complete rebuild, UP just uses it mostly to store cars and switch some industries. Because of some of those it might be class 2 track in segments. It needs new rail to replace the jointed rail unless someone wants to weld in place the rail into very long sticks and an extensive tie program. I believe its still signaled but its not got PTC, CTC or electric locks on the hundreds of manual switches

Class 4 for 80mph top speed I could see happening if there was 3-4RT daily, sunset limited acting as the sleeper and then 2-3RT for a daytime train. I'd like 90 or 110mph top speeds but I can't see that happening without more RT.
 
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The lines in a state where it needs a complete rebuild, UP just uses it mostly to store cars and switch some industries. Because of some of those it might be class 2 track in segments. It needs new rail to replace the jointed rail unless someone wants to weld in place the rail into very long sticks and an extensive tie program. I believe its still signaled but its not got PTC, CTC or electric locks on the hundreds of manual switches

Class 4 for 80mph top speed I could see happening if there was 3-4RT daily, sunset limited acting as the sleeper and then 2-3RT for a daytime train. I'd like 90 or 110mph top speeds but I can't see that happening without more RT.
Last information I had, the signal system on the west line was automatic block, not CTC, and not functional. The rail in the track is, at least in part, and most likely all in 113 SP rail which is a Southern Pacific design 113 lb/yd section, probably well worn and would be more than 60 years and possibly up to 100 years old. The desert climate and low volume of track will have resulted in much longer tie life than in most of the country, but non the less the tie condition is probably minimal for Class 2 if that good. I would suspect we might as well think of the line as needing a 100% rail and tie replacement plus running a ballast cleaner and adding about 6 inches of new ballast. All drainage crossings would need assessment, and likely the wood trestles (I have no idea how many) replaced. This would be necessary for even 79 mph service and would be essentially the same as that needed for 110 mph+.
 
I found a line on my map that goes from Wickenburg to Parker then west and then back to the I-40 area. THere is also a line from a place called Eloy on the SL line a few miles east of Maricopa, probably how the SL used to get to Phoenix I guess.

Would these help for a daily RT ?
 
Last information I had, the signal system on the west line was automatic block, not CTC, and not functional. The rail in the track is, at least in part, and most likely all in 113 SP rail which is a Southern Pacific design 113 lb/yd section, probably well worn and would be more than 60 years and possibly up to 100 years old. The desert climate and low volume of track will have resulted in much longer tie life than in most of the country, but non the less the tie condition is probably minimal for Class 2 if that good. I would suspect we might as well think of the line as needing a 100% rail and tie replacement plus running a ballast cleaner and adding about 6 inches of new ballast. All drainage crossings would need assessment, and likely the wood trestles (I have no idea how many) replaced. This would be necessary for even 79 mph service and would be essentially the same as that needed for 110 mph+.
Knowing SP I wouldn't be surprised if it was a mix of whatever rail they had lying around mixed with a few patches of new rail.
That is one of the few reasons I could see it being rated faster, the line after a complete rebuild could easily be 90 or 110mph but 110mph comes with the all active crossing requirements.
Looks like east of dixie tracks are in okay shape but west of that the tracks get worse.
 
Okay, all this talk of the Peavine brings back memories. It happened that a Santa Fe conductor lived on our street. In about 1968, he invited me to join him, gratis, on a round trip on the well named "Hassayampa Flyer". Okay, the Hassayampa part was true, but the "Flyer" was a bit of an exaggeration. We rode out of the Phoenix station, and once we cleared Wickenburg, and presumably out of sight of management, he took me up to the cab and I spent the rest of the evening tooting the horn and occasionally adjusting the throttle. We passed through Ash Fork, and then took an older line to Williams Junction, presumably to keep out of the way of freight trains that wanted to get somewhere. I remember stopping at a signal (or at least a milepost) and with the headlight turned off, waited in the dark for another train to pass. In Williams Junction, the crew let me play cards with them until a Santa Fe express deigned to show up, we loaded passengers and headed back to Phoenix through the early hours of the morning. Quite a night for a 12 year old.

That was the happy memory. When the train was discontinued, the conductor invited me to ride with him on the last run to Williams Junction, to return to Phoenix on a crew van. My mother drove me to the station, where we found roughly 50 confused train buffs and no train. It seemed that while Arizona didn't follow daylight saving time, the Santa Fe did, and had cheerfully left on its last run an hour earlier than anyone expected. The passengers were understandably annoyed, but the station agent said, "Look, folks, I am out of a job as of 5pm today, so frankly I don't give a *&%$."

One of my major (and few) regrets in life...
 
Thanks for sharing your story with us. That is the train I am talking about and as it was an overnight connection used to get people into Phoenix in the morning if they were coming from some overnight trains on the Santa Fe mainline. As you were saying it was really designed to be a connecting service for the Long Distance trains so that slower schedule is all that was really needed.
 
If direct rail service to Phoenix were to be restored, I believe restoring the former SP route would be the better choice, unless they could do it a lot cheaper using that "Peavine" line.
Speaking historically, I believe the best service between Chicago and Phoenix was offered by the Rock Island - Southern Pacific "Golden State".

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/goldstate194812.html
Yes using the "Peavine" route would be cheaper. The old Rock Island route or (what's left of it )is not really in that great shape and even when the line was intact the route that the Golden State used to connect to the Southern Pacific route at Tucumcari New Mexico was a single track line that was poorly signaled. In the late 1940s the Rock Island and the Southern Pacific railroads had made plans to up grade the service on the Golden State route and they even ordered a few sets of new cars for a speeded up version of the Golden State which was to be called the Golden Rocket. The only thing is that the Southern Pacific backed out the last minute. Some of the new cars were delivered to the Rock Island railroad but since the Southern Pacific was no longer interested in the project the new cars which were painted red over Silver or Gray were instead put onto the Golden State.
The Golden States schedule from Chicago to Los Angeles was about 46 hours and the proposed "Golden Rocket" was intended to compete with the Santa Fe's exclusive Super Chief which traveled from Chicago to Los Angeles in a little less than 40 hours. There would have to be major track , right of way and signaling upgrades to increase the speed of the train and Southern Pacific decided that ite wasn't worth it. I doubt if there is anything left of the line to Tucumcari now and even when it was running passenger trains I believe that it was still longer then the Santa Fe's routing. The Rock Island and the Southern Pacific had also changed the schedule of the Golden State several times as well.

The 1948 schedule had the Golden State leave Chicago at 10;15pm and it arrived in Phoenix 2 days later at about 9;30 am while it arrived in Los Angeles about 615 pm. By the mid 1950s the Golden State left Chicago in the early afternoon and it arrived in Phoenix the next day at between 10;30 and 11 pm and it would arrive in Los Angeles in the morning. The Chicago Phoenix sleeper was disconnected from the Golden State upon arrival at Phoenix and the passengers were allowed to stay in their accommodations on the sleeper until about 8 or 9 the next morning. So they been changing the schedule around to see if they would be more convenient for the Los Angeles market or for the Phoenix and Southern Arizona market. Either way they were trying to serve two markets at the very least The problem is that even in the late 40s and the 50s the Southern Pacific while speeding up the Golden State somewhat they still couldn't or didn't want to make it speed competitive with the Super Chief and the City of Los Angeles of the Union Pacific which were it's main competition in the Chicago to Los Angeles market. By the early 1960s the Southern Pacific was tryng to get out of the passenger business,
 
I was comparing the cost of the "Peavine" with the cost of restoring the Sunset route back thru Phoenix...not with the "Golden State route"...
 
I think restoring the SP would be the better place to start. Tucson and Los Angeles will generate more ridership for a train than overnight service to Chicago especially as such is possible on 421/422. The restoration would also give passenger authorities better opportunities to negotiate more frequency and better OTP.
 
There is another way to restore daily service to Phoenix Az and that in the BNSF "branch line" better known at the "Peavine" line which goes south from the ex Santa Fe mainline at WIlliams Junction Arizona and goes to Phoenix via Wickenburg Az.
This is an intriguing idea.
Putting track maintenance issues aside, and some routing issues.

Have the westbound SWC drop cars at Williams AZ. Rail cars for Phoenix, and The Grand Canyon. Multi route will spread the cost out. Multi routes will have a crew base large enough to be effective, and efficient sized.

I also like the dropping of rail cars at Kansas City for St Louis service on the eastbound. Of course this becomes a problem with the placement within the train.
 
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