Pennsylvanian schedule change

[fairviewroad]

With next week's schedule change, the later Sunday eastbound departure of the Pennsylvanian has been eliminated in favor of the same

departure time as the other days of the week. Normally the Pennsylvanian departs PIT at 7:20 a.m., providing a decent connection from the

eastbound Capitol Limited (not counting the pre-dawn arrival time of the CL into PIT, which isn't affected by this.) But until now, passengers

who wished to make this connection on Sunday had to (or got to, depending on how much time you wanted to spend in PIT) wait around

until 1:20 p.m.

Presumably the later Sunday departure was meant to attract travelers who may have wished to head west to PIT for the weekend, giving them

more time in PIT before their return. But it meant that the connection from the CL was for all intents and purposes broken on Sundays. Now,

that later departure is gone. Is this a precursor to through-car service from CHI-PHL?

 

[NY Penn]

Yes, this is most likely the elimination of one of the last obstacles preventing thru car service.

 

[PRR 60]

Yes, this is most likely the elimination of one of the last obstacles preventing thru car service.

There would still have to be some track and a switch installed at PGH to permit the cars to be added and cut-off without the need for a dedicated switcher and crew.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Still no switch installed. Not even any dirt digging yet.

 

[jis]

Still no switch installed. Not even any dirt digging yet.

The work is scheduled for next year's summer construction season I am told.

Apparently they really do not have a reliable supply of Viewliners to make this happen until at least a few new Viewliner Sleepers are on the property anyway. And without the Viewliner the cost equation for the whole thing looks much worse than with one.

 

[eagle628]

Still no switch installed. Not even any dirt digging yet.

The work is scheduled for next year's summer construction season I am told.

Apparently they really do not have a reliable supply of Viewliners to make this happen until at least a few new Viewliner Sleepers are on the property anyway. And without the Viewliner the cost equation for the whole thing looks much worse than with one.

Maybe they'll cancel the Cardinal to appease the politicians, then take those sleepers and stick them on the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian to appease the public...

 

[hhswami]

Apparently they really do not have a reliable supply of Viewliners to make this happen until at least a few new Viewliner Sleepers are on the property anyway. And without the Viewliner the cost equation for the whole thing looks much worse than with one.

Maybe they'll cancel the Cardinal to appease the politicians, then take those sleepers and stick them on the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian to appease the public...

I don't consider myself to be fully knowledgeable about moves of this nature, but wouldn't this create another problem switching sleepers between a Capitol Limited using Superliners and Pennsylvanian with Viewliners, even with a Superliner transition car involved?

Since she is only tri-weekly, and there's is only one Viewliner sleeper per run, sacrificing the Card for the sake of the Cap or Penny would be for little to no gain. Instead, when the new Viewliners begin to roll out, make the CL a single-level train for more switching compatibility with the NEC. Move the Superliners back to the Card to make it a daily WAS-CHI service.

 

[jis]

Apparently they really do not have a reliable supply of Viewliners to make this happen until at least a few new Viewliner Sleepers are on the property anyway. And without the Viewliner the cost equation for the whole thing looks much worse than with one.

Maybe they'll cancel the Cardinal to appease the politicians, then take those sleepers and stick them on the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian to appease the public...

I don't consider myself to be fully knowledgeable about moves of this nature, but wouldn't this create another problem switching sleepers between a Capitol Limited using Superliners and Pennsylvanian with Viewliners, even with a Superliner transition car involved?

Since she is only tri-weekly, and there's is only one Viewliner sleeper per run, sacrificing the Card for the sake of the Cap or Penny would be for little to no gain. Instead, when the new Viewliners begin to roll out, make the CL a single-level train for more switching compatibility with the NEC. Move the Superliners back to the Card to make it a daily WAS-CHI service.

You're right. Just killing the Card does not get you enough Viewliners for the PGH switch.

I am given to understand that the Cap is not about to get converted back to low level. It is by itself considered a premier Superliner train and is indeed targeted for service enhancement at some point.

So I also do not believe that the Card will become Superliner anytime soon since additional Supers that become available through further damage repair etc. (are there any repairable ones left?) or due to deployment of Corridor bi-levels in the midwest and California, will be used for enhancing capacity of existing Superliner trains.

 

[eagle628]

You're right. Just killing the Card does not get you enough Viewliners for the PGH switch.

Yes it does. One of the points made in the Cardinal's PIP was that daily service could work without a new equipment order; Amtrak either has available (unlikely) or can make available (more probable) a single extra Viewliner. Amtrak does not have and cannot make three Viewliners appear, however, so a daily Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian sleeper service can't be done without new cars. But if you canceled the Cardinal, you'd get two Viewliners and if a third can be made to appear for a daily Cardinal, it would seem improbable that the same can't happen for the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian.

But this is thinking way too much about an idea made in sarcasm...

 

[jis]

You're right. Just killing the Card does not get you enough Viewliners for the PGH switch.

Yes it does. One of the points made in the Cardinal's PIP was that daily service could work without a new equipment order; Amtrak either has available (unlikely) or can make available (more probable) a single extra Viewliner. Amtrak does not have and cannot make three Viewliners appear, however, so a daily Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian sleeper service can't be done without new cars. But if you canceled the Cardinal, you'd get two Viewliners and if a third can be made to appear for a daily Cardinal, it would seem improbable that the same can't happen for the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian.

Yes, it does say that in the PIP, but since then I have talked to one of the authors of the PIP and he candidly told me that they were a bit overoptimistic on the equipment situation in the PIP. Theoretically they can find an additional Viewliner but not reliably. As long as you can live with a higher probability that on occasions (more often than is desirable) the Sleeper will be substituted by a coach, yup, it works.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Apparently they really do not have a reliable supply of Viewliners to make this happen until at least a few new Viewliner Sleepers are on the property anyway. And without the Viewliner the cost equation for the whole thing looks much worse than with one.

Maybe they'll cancel the Cardinal to appease the politicians, then take those sleepers and stick them on the Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian to appease the public...

I don't consider myself to be fully knowledgeable about moves of this nature, but wouldn't this create another problem switching sleepers between a Capitol Limited using Superliners and Pennsylvanian with Viewliners, even with a Superliner transition car involved?

Since she is only tri-weekly, and there's is only one Viewliner sleeper per run, sacrificing the Card for the sake of the Cap or Penny would be for little to no gain. Instead, when the new Viewliners begin to roll out, make the CL a single-level train for more switching compatibility with the NEC. Move the Superliners back to the Card to make it a daily WAS-CHI service.

A big reason that the Cap Limited is Superliner is because it shares the same consist with the SW Chief. They rotate together, and screwing up the Cap consist would affect all Superliner equipment rotations throughout the system

 

[Trogdor]

A big reason that the Cap Limited is Superliner is because it shares the same consist with the SW Chief. They rotate together, and screwing up the Cap consist would affect all Superliner equipment rotations throughout the system

That hasn't been true in years. In fact, the Capitol Limited was one of the first trains to get the diner-lounge/Cross Country Cafe, but the SW Chief always kept the regular dining car.

The Capitol Limited was converted to Superliner in 1994, but the combination with the Southwest Chief (which was going to be a single service named the "National Chief") didn't happen until 1997. For a brief period, you could occupy the same car all the way through, staying on in Chicago. That became a logistical problem and was dropped a short time later.

The shared equipment remained until the early 2000s, but I can't remember exactly when (I'm guessing it was around the time that the 37000s were introduced). Point is, though, the Capitol Limited has been a standalone Superliner consist for as much (or more) time as it was shared with the Southwest Chief.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

someone was digging around in the muck today around where the new switch will be going in. Just preliminary stuff I'm sure.

 

[cirdan]

I don't consider myself to be fully knowledgeable about moves of this nature, but wouldn't this create another problem switching sleepers between a Capitol Limited using Superliners and Pennsylvanian with Viewliners, even with a Superliner transition car involved?

Since she is only tri-weekly, and there's is only one Viewliner sleeper per run, sacrificing the Card for the sake of the Cap or Penny would be for little to no gain. Instead, when the new Viewliners begin to roll out, make the CL a single-level train for more switching compatibility with the NEC. Move the Superliners back to the Card to make it a daily WAS-CHI service.

Why are we assuming that new cars would be required?

My experience of the Pittsburgh change is that quite a lot of people riding the Pennsylvanian then continue on to Chicago.

Last time I was there the waiting rom was full and people were even sitting on the floor.

So we can assume that one or two coaches worth of passengers are already making the connection. If through sleepers were provided, the passengers using these sleepers would abstract from those currently making the change and free up coach space, maybe to the point of the Pennslvanian consist being shortened by one coach car. Therefore the proposed sleeper would replace and not be addition to a coach car. Similarly, all these passengers I observed boarded the Chicago-bound train, so there must have been sufficient empty seats and sleepers to make that possible. So again, an additional sleeper wouldn't be required but one of the existing cars could do the job. And seeing Philadelphia is about as far from Pittsburg as DC is, the time required to run out and return the car(s) would be the same on both legs. I believe the switch could be made without calling for any additional rolling stock.

 

[cirdan]

someone was digging around in the muck today around where the new switch will be going in. Just preliminary stuff I'm sure.

Does anybody have a track plan? I don't quite see where or why an additional switch would be required.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

I can just go take a picture?

 

[jis]

someone was digging around in the muck today around where the new switch will be going in. Just preliminary stuff I'm sure.

Does anybody have a track plan? I don't quite see where or why an additional switch would be required.

Read the PIP.

 

[afigg]

Why are we assuming that new cars would be required?

My experience of the Pittsburgh change is that quite a lot of people riding the Pennsylvanian then continue on to Chicago.

Last time I was there the waiting rom was full and people were even sitting on the floor.

So we can assume that one or two coaches worth of passengers are already making the connection. If through sleepers were provided, the passengers using these sleepers would abstract from those currently making the change and free up coach space, maybe to the point of the Pennslvanian consist being shortened by one coach car. Therefore the proposed sleeper would replace and not be addition to a coach car. Similarly, all these passengers I observed boarded the Chicago-bound train, so there must have been sufficient empty seats and sleepers to make that possible. So again, an additional sleeper wouldn't be required but one of the existing cars could do the job. And seeing Philadelphia is about as far from Pittsburg as DC is, the time required to run out and return the car(s) would be the same on both legs. I believe the switch could be made without calling for any additional rolling stock.

The Capitol Limited PIP report projects an increase of 20,400 passengers by providing a through train. There are people who won't take the route unless it is a through train or they see a direct connection. The Amfleets will provide the room to handle the projected growth in ridership due to Amtrak providing "direct" service. The plan calls for 2 Amfleet IIs, 1 Amfleet café, 1 Viewliner to go through to Chicago. In order to do so, 2 additional Amfleet IIs, 1 café car and 3 Viewliner sleepers are needed from the equipment pool to supply 3 consists. The Pennsylvanian uses 2 sets.

A question I have is whether Amtrak would consider starting the connecting service without Viewliner sleepers on an interim basis for 2012-2013 until enough Viewliner II sleepers are delivered. In short, just add the connecting 2 coach and 1 café cars to the CL for those willing to take coach to Cleveland and points west. Those who want a sleeper room would move from the Amfleet II to the Superliner sleepers at Pittsburgh, but would not have to wait around in a train station. Hence going ahead with the schedule change this fall to prepare for a service change next spring rather than wait until 2013.

One problem is that the Sunset Limited going to daily service with an extension of the Texas Eagle with a New Orleans - San Antonio stub train was expected to free up equipment, namely 5 Superliner sleepers and up to 4 diners by allowing more efficient use of equipment. Which were to provide expansion of the CL. UP's demands have prevented the SL from going to daily service, so there is a ripple effect to the CL.

 

[Donctor]

They could take the third sleeper off the Meteor and put 3 of the 4 cars on the Penny.

Why Amtrak would do that, I have no idea.

 

[AlanB]

One problem is that the Sunset Limited going to daily service with an extension of the Texas Eagle with a New Orleans - San Antonio stub train was expected to free up equipment, namely 5 Superliner sleepers and up to 4 diners by allowing more efficient use of equipment. Which were to provide expansion of the CL. UP's demands have prevented the SL from going to daily service, so there is a ripple effect to the CL.

At this point, unless Amtrak plans to go to court with UP, they should just give up on the Sunset plan and go back to the original plan for the cars restored with the Stimulus monies. That is beefing up the Empire Builder and the Capitol Limited.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

They were down there again today digging in the ballast in the same place.