Pioneer and Desert Wind

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NativeSon5859

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Was it simply low ridership, or were there issues regarding the host railroads? I would imagine that the Desert Wind would have been a VERY popular route, with it stopping it Vegas and all. I suppose the Pioneer did not fair well as it travelled through some lower-populated areas in Wyoming and Idaho, but it seemed like a very scenic route...one that I would have liked to take one day.

I can only imagine seeing the CZ pull into DEN with all those combined Desert Wind and Pioneer cars, must have been quite a sight!

Steve/NOL
 
It's too bad the Desert Wind couldn't have hung on a few years longer. I think today it would probably be a profitable route for Amtrak. Things change....Now, almost 10 years after the plug was pulled on the "Wind" and other trains. after 9-11, the the cost of gasoline, the congestion on the interstates, the trains are back in fashion..

I really would like Amtrack to get to the point where the "page has turned" for them. Where the government isn't standing over them with the hachet, ready to swing. Where they can start selecting new routes (and deleting losers if necessary) and start plotting their course for a profitable future. Like any other growing business.

Amtrak has always been the unwanted step child for the government. Becauce of the constant eye of the gov't looking at Amtrak , it is difficult for Amtrak to expand.

The Desert Wind would be a money maker if in service today.

Wb
 
I am sure Amtrak did not want to cut them---just the same thing every year---the budget battle. I am sure something "had" to go and they were part of it. I do not think it was about them STANDING OUT as hopeless money losers.
 
Look at it this way. If Amtrak changed it's name to "Iraqitrak" or "Marstrak", I'm sure the government would give them the full amount they request every year.

And then, you could bring back the Pioneer and Desert Wind to name a few.

I think it's kind of ridiculous that the government will spend billions of dollars on rebuilding Iraq's Railroads. And then propose to spend (forget the figure?) billions more exploring another planet.
 
warbonnet said:
It's too bad the Desert Wind couldn't have hung on a few years longer. I think today it would probably be a profitable route for Amtrak.
Keep in mind though that Amtrak only operates two profitable trains, the Auto Train and Acela Express, everything else loses money. So the odds of it being profitable are, well slim to none.
 
battalion51 said:
warbonnet said:
It's too bad the Desert Wind couldn't have hung on a few years longer. I think today it would probably be a profitable route for Amtrak.
Keep in mind though that Amtrak only operates two profitable trains, the Auto Train and Acela Express, everything else loses money. So the odds of it being profitable are, well slim to none.
They're not exactly profitable though. The Auto Train and the Acela Express just cover the operating expenses for themselves. I don't think Amtrak actully gets to keep any revenue they generate. I'm not even sure the Acela Express can keep up with itself now since 4 trainsets are not in service at any given time, plus all the high maintainence.
 
Amtrak operates no trains that are profitable. :(

The Auto Train comes close to covering its operating costs, but AFAIK it still falls short by a little. This is based upon the last stats that I saw from the 2001 fiscal year.

The Metroliner service in its heyday, used to cover it's cost and then some. However any surplus revenue over operating costs were quickly gobbled up by the capital expenses of the NEC.

I haven't seen any numbers so far on the Acela's, so I don't know if they are covering costs or not. I'm inclined to say however, that Acela probably is not covering its costs. This is due to the NYP - BOS section pulling down the NYP-WAS segment.

Maintenance of the Acela's should not be a factor in this equation, since that is being handled by Bombardier under contract. So that is a fixed cost for Amtrak and Bombardier has to eat those costs. That's one of the reasons that they are suing Amtrak over the design, so that they can dump some of those costs back onto Amtrak.
 
As with anything involving the government and Amtrak, there is no way to be sure just exactly way the Pioneer and the Desert Wind were discontinued. They both were short trains--four to five cars each and one locomotive (F40)--but were usually well patronized. Mostly it was chalked up to not enough passengers and not enough money to keep them going. I wonder if Union Pacific was in on it, didn't want the service over its lines. There was talk of using the Pioneer as sort of an express train--in addition to carrying passengers, it would also carry perishables and other time-sensitive packages, but UP balked, thinking it was too much competition for its freight lines.

It was indeed a site to see the three trains connected together. With the Pioneer and Desert Wind were fully Superliner equipped (about 1982), the train traveled as one to Salt Lake City. The train could be up to 16 to 18 cars long. Sometimes there would be an extra diner put on. It was great watching the train snake around curves, especially through the canyons. At Salt Lake, the train would be split apart into three sections. The CZ to Oakland, the Desert Wind to LA, and the Pioneer to Portland and Seattle. I was there to watch them do it once.

From the late 80s (I think), the Pioneer was separated at Denver, so it could travel through Wyoming to the Northwest. It restored rail service to a route that lost it in 1982 when the San Francisco Zephyr became the California Zephyr and assumed its present route. The train did serve a number of communities that had no air services and where the train was a viable option for intercity and interstate travel. It's a big state, with major towns sometimes a hundred miles from each other. Winter conditions made driving trecherous even on the Interstate. So, there was a need for the train. Probably the most scenic part of the trip in Wyoming is the section through Echo Canyon.

My favorite parts of the trip were: Durke Loop, the descent (or climb, depending on direction of travel) between Baker City and La Grande, the ride over the Blue Mountains (between La Grande and Pendleton), and especially the ride along the Columbia River and through the Gorge on the Oregon side. It is one of the most scenic rides anywhere in the world.

Some say they prefer the Empire Builder on the Washington side. It has its merits. However, the Builder passes through the area in the early evening when, this time of year, it is dark, going east. So people miss it for half the year. The Pioneer, however, traveled the Gorge in daylight in both directions on its regular schedule, which means the scenery could be enjoyed anytime of year. The Oregon side is greener, lusher (the Washington side is drier, more in the sun) and features several waterfalls, including 600-ft. Multnomah Falls. There are many other highlights. That its gone is a fact, but it is not forgotten--at least not by me.
 
Is there any chance either train will be returned once the economy improves and there's more discretionary spending for things like Amtrak? Given that Los Angeles and Chicago are such huge metropolitan areas, more capacity between the two would be good. Also, major destinations along the route are underserved, or not served at all - Denver and Las Vegas are the two that come to mind. Having a second frequency, perhaps even a morning departure (11 AM or so) from Chicago, would be good, so passengers arriving from the east on the Three Rivers or Lake Shore Limited, or coming in on early midwest corridor services could have an earlier departure to points west, arriving at a decent hour in Salt Lake (insted of the appx. midnight arrival currently scheduled).

A set-out sleeper in Denver could be offered, given the appx. 5:00 AM arrival, or even a set of set out cars to Colorado Springs and Pueblo(a sleeper, two coaches and a cafe/coach, for example), sitting in Denver till 8:30 and then proceeding south. The Denver-Pueblo area is growing dramatically in population, and is vastly underserved.

The Pioneer could restore service on the UP Wyoming line, and provide help to those rural communites it once stopped in - it would also bring both of Wyoming's senators and its congressman in on the side of Amtrak, which is important. It could be operated on a later schedule, departing at 4:00 or 4:30 or so, offering a full range of West Coast connections from Chicago.
 
I too would have figured UP would have had something to do with the demise of trains running through Las Vegas. Considering how bad I-15 is from listening to traffic reports fromt he LA area between LA and LV it just seems that this would be a more viable option for those who don't want to fly yet don't want to ride a bus or drive either.
 
Just before the discontinuation of the Pioneer and Desert Wind, weren't alot of trains to the west out of Chicago tri-weekly?
 
The Sunset has been on tri-weekly service since Amtrak began service. For a time in the early and mid 70s, the train operated daily during the summer and holiday seasons, but mostly it has been a tri-weekly service.

Shortly before the Pioneer and Desert Wind were discontinued, Amtrak was facing a finacial crisis and hoped that cutting the frequency of operations on some routes, which certainly was better than cutting them outright. The CZ went as far as Salt Lake on a daily basis, but the Desert Wind traveled the rest of the way to LA three days a week, the CZ the rest of the way to Oakland, four days a week. The Pioneer had already been a tri-weekly operation for some time. It often alternated days with the Desert Wind. The Empire Builder was also cutback to four days a week. Again, days of operation were staggered so that between Chicago and Portland/Seattle there would still be daily service: four days a week it would be available on the Builder; the other three days a week on the Pioneer.

There has been talk of bringing back a Portland to Boise only portion of the Pioneer that would be funded by the state. It might work well enough. Yoou could have more reasonable arrival and departure times in Boise (eastbound, the arrival was 11:00pm; westbound, about 3 am). It's a 12-hour trip (don't forget there is the change between the Pacific and Mountain Time Zones ). The train could leave Portland early in the morning and arrive Boise not too late. But, it may not offer the direct connection to Seattle. Same thing coming back. The Talgo trains might do just fine for this service; they have proven popular on the Seattle-Portland-Eugene routes. Too bad one of the cars could not be outfitted with a dome/observation section.

However, if the state of Oregon had such a difficult time getting funding for the Willamette Valley trains, how much more difficult will it be to get finacing for a train that goes farther and might be more expensive to operate? There has also been talk of having a Vegas-LA only train reinstated. We're still waiting on that. Also Amtrak cannot start any new trains itself, on its own. If states had enough money of their own and were willing to invest

Oh, since 1997, the California Zephyr and Empire Builder have been restored to daily service on their respective routes.
 
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