Police Activity Aboard California Zephyr

[Anderson]

Quick question for the uninitiated: I assume that RAS is the same as reasonable suspicion, but what does it stand for?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Reasonable Articulable Suspicion

 

[Peter KG6LSE]

Actually Amtrak can impose any conditions it wishes upon you for travel, within reason. No one is forcing you to buy the ticket, therefore Amtrak can impose any rules it sees fit. You then have the choice to either buy the ticket and obey or find another way to travel.

And this can easily be seen by the rule that if one fails to submit to a search by law enforcement, then one will receive a refund of one's ticket(s) and will not be permitted to travel on Amtrak.

at least Amtrak Offers a refund if you dont consent ...

the clowns at the airport can arrest and fine you for 10 Grand for not bending over and saying YES at a checkpoint .....

EG you dont consent to a Xray and a patdown . and thus you cant pass go .. and YOU want to leave . if you ask for your stuf to leave to the non secure zone they can stop you and . make your life Hell /.

this of ALL laws needs to change ........ you have the rigth to not fly and NOT be touched ......... but it needs not be a fine or jail .. the Tix are the airlines problem . so those I can seenot being refunded ...

Amtrak officers are graduates of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. TSA "Officers" are NOT graduates of anything except maybe high school although you may have some senior types that were former LEOs that attended FLETC or a state police mini-academy, but I think they give them the TSA people the "officer" title to keep "us" in line like they are "real" LEO's.

NAVYBLUE

I am VERY aware of this ..

what does this have to do with there being a trap for People who rather not play roulette on how they will be searched ..

a reasonable person would conclude that One form of search as intense as a crazy full body Xray is enough .

Let give you some insight ....... Mr D goes to LAX and does the backscatcatter ........ he passes the muster .. but due to the """""" random """" screenings hes is asked to be hand checked by whom We BOTH agree are not ( in my words) are not " qualified " ) ....... He. Mr D says NO .. . Mr D CAN be fined !!!!!!........ he If the TSA choose too.. can FINE him for not complying ,. He has lost the right to leave on his own Free will .............

With the train here ...... If I say NO to a search .I loose my Tix and I am not going anywhere on a train ........ but I dont have a bloddy New car Priced Fine on my hands Or Worse ..

In fact there is a slight chance that I can get my Tix Price back ...........

Peter...

 

[Ryan]

It's that English thingy that rears it's ugly head. If you are going to participate you need to go and read every word since this thread started and you will see the conversation is about NON Amtrak LEOs coming aboard to go "fishing" NOT Amtrak officers. Your statement is talking about AMTRAK security personnel who can search my bags before I get on the train and once I am on the train to their hearts content. Once on board they better have RAS or they are in trouble. They can't go fishing either

I've read every word. Nothing in the terms and conditions say that they are limited to Amtrak Security Personnel.

If Amtrak wants a LEO of any kind to look at your bags, they're going to look at your bags or you're going to find yourself watching the markers recede in the distance. If a non-Amtrak LEO wants to look at your bags and you refuse, Amtrak is well within their rights to put you off the train.

What is this "group" that you keep on talking about?

 

[NAVYBLUE]

It's that English thingy that rears it's ugly head. If you are going to participate you need to go and read every word since this thread started and you will see the conversation is about NON Amtrak LEOs coming aboard to go "fishing" NOT Amtrak officers. Your statement is talking about AMTRAK security personnel who can search my bags before I get on the train and once I am on the train to their hearts content. Once on board they better have RAS or they are in trouble. They can't go fishing either

I've read every word. Nothing in the terms and conditions say that they are limited to Amtrak Security Personnel.

If Amtrak wants a LEO of any kind to look at your bags, they're going to look at your bags or you're going to find yourself watching the markers recede in the distance. If a non-Amtrak LEO wants to look at your bags and you refuse, Amtrak is well within their rights to put you off the train.

What is this "group" that you keep on talking about?

This conversation is not consensual.

Am I free to go

Goodbye

NAVYBLUE

 

[gatelouse]

The requirement or non-requirement to state a name is interesting to me. Has this been codified by the Supreme Court or does this requirement vary state-by-state?

As both NavyBlue and I stated, you may be required to provide your name to police. This was decided in the 2004 supreme court Hiibel vs. Nevada. It a) depends on the state and b) the police must have "reasonable suspicion" during a stop and identify.

Various states have different rules, which is why I provided a link to a "reasonable summary" of the regulations by state on wikipedia. Apparently that source isn't good enough for some folks so I won't repost it, but you are more than welcome to google it up yourself.

Thanks amamba--I completely missed the link you posted. It's a nice summary of the 3 different kinds of stops and puts the "non-consensual" canned speech in context. Much appreciated. So I've formulated my approach if I ever run into local LEOs onboard.

Given the different laws in each state, I'll offer up my name, even in a consensual situation. If they're fishing for a person, it doesn't bother me in the least that I'm excluding myself from the pool. Quick win-win for both. Plus my name is on the manifest and ticket anyway.

Any further questions and I'll invoke NAVYBLUE's approach. If it's not on the manifest it's none of your business.

Any inquiries outside normal business hours (e.g. woken from a good nap, middle of the night) are immediately non-consensual and will result in complaint letters to Amtrak and the Amtrak Police, as the latter are presumably in the loop on these operations.

 

[The Chief]

Cold Rain and Snow advised on his eastbound Zephyr trip this week

"Johnny Law boarded there [Omaha] and made contact with a guy in the 632 sleeper. He was escorted off in handcuffs and had apparently been holding 4 pieces of baggage, some of which had pot stashed in them."

While I couldn't find the news report on that incident, we learned:

Omaha police responded to a fight on a train (CZ) late Sunday night.

Officers said the victim told them that (suspect) William McGlaughlen, 39, from Warsaw, Ill., stole a computer from the victim's luggage. Another witness then told officers they saw McGlaughlen take a handgun from his waistband of his pants and put it on the ground near the front of the train. That's where police found the gun.

Here are the three links: KETV Omaha World Herald WOWT

At least this didn't happen in Dallas Union Station or suspect may have been shot, to death. Suspect did have three prior felonies.

Be alert on the Zephyr for guns, drugs, and thefts.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

Cold Rain and Snow advised on his eastbound Zephyr trip this week

"Johnny Law boarded there [Omaha] and made contact with a guy in the 632 sleeper. He was escorted off in handcuffs and had apparently been holding 4 pieces of baggage, some of which had pot stashed in them."

While I couldn't find the news report on that incident, we learned:

Omaha police responded to a fight on a train (CZ) late Sunday night.

Officers said the victim told them that (suspect) William McGlaughlen, 39, from Warsaw, Ill., stole a computer from the victim's luggage. Another witness then told officers they saw McGlaughlen take a handgun from his waistband of his pants and put it on the ground near the front of the train. That's where police found the gun.

Here are the three links: KETV Omaha World Herald WOWT

At least this didn't happen in Dallas Union Station or suspect may have been shot, to death. Suspect did have three prior felonies.

Be alert on the Zephyr for guns, drugs, and thefts.

Our SCA, Donald, told us that drug busts are occurring on the California Zephyr on just about every other trip these days. That surprised me a bit and left me feeling conflicted. On one hand, I am glad that these folks are being removed from the train. On the other hand, I'm sure the police feel emboldened by these arrests to continue their sometimes heavy-handed onboard tactics that I despise.

The guy who was busted in our rear sleeper boarded in Reno of all places, the very platform where the men of Reno 911 work their magic. This guy should permanently resign from Drugs, Inc. for lack of intelligence; he was lucky not to have been nabbed right on the platform at Reno before he ever even set foot on the train.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Wow...I must have missed this thread earlier, but I have to completely agree with NAVYBLUE on this one. The OP's story is disconcerting to me. If someone asked to inspect my compartment I'd tell him to take a hike. You have a constitutional RIGHT to refuse to answer their questions. As far as the "I'm not doing anything wrong" crowd, I'm sure the Jews in **** Germany thought they were doing nothing wrong either.

I love traveling by train, but Amtrak is quickly approaching the line in the sand I draw. While I have never had any problems regarding security riding the Silvers in Florida, I find it disheartening to reads these stories about LEO on the CZ, the shooting event on the TE, and border patrol asking for papers on the LSL.

 

[Anderson]

It's that English thingy that rears it's ugly head. If you are going to participate you need to go and read every word since this thread started and you will see the conversation is about NON Amtrak LEOs coming aboard to go "fishing" NOT Amtrak officers. Your statement is talking about AMTRAK security personnel who can search my bags before I get on the train and once I am on the train to their hearts content. Once on board they better have RAS or they are in trouble. They can't go fishing either

I've read every word. Nothing in the terms and conditions say that they are limited to Amtrak Security Personnel.

If Amtrak wants a LEO of any kind to look at your bags, they're going to look at your bags or you're going to find yourself watching the markers recede in the distance. If a non-Amtrak LEO wants to look at your bags and you refuse, Amtrak is well within their rights to put you off the train.

What is this "group" that you keep on talking about?

This conversation is not consensual.

Am I free to go

Goodbye

NAVYBLUE

Navyblue,

I've got to ask: What do you do if the officer does come up with some sort of RAS (even if it's who you had dinner with in the diner or that you were chatting with someone in the hall) and says you aren't free to go?

 

[stonesfan]

Unfortunately when theres 200+ riding a train, you can bet your bottom dollar at least a handful are undesirables who have no idea of how to conduct themselves in public. I've seen a couple of relatively minor cases of this when travelling by train in the USA, both on the same trip. Some junkied up rednecks who used the prolonged station stops to maintain their habit and then proceded to try and scrounge money from a few passengers on the Lake Shore Limited. Small fry, yes, but it created an uneasy atmosphere at time.

And then some drunken guy who wouldnt stop ****** and blinding in a loud voice on the Zephyr. To their credit, the crew dealt with him there and then (even threatening to throw him off the train) so the majority could enjoy their journey in a pleasant manner.

I've had a few police doggies sniffing me at Boston and NYP, plus a bull necked copper asking me for my ID at Salt Lake Station. But big deal. I've nothing to hide. Sod my civil liberties, what about society as a whole?

 

[Golden grrl]

What is this "group" that you keep on talking about?

Navyblue discussed his group in posting #30 on this thread.