Poll:should Amtrak's NEC upgrade/high-speed rail vision be built?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Should Amtrak's NEC upgrade/high-speed rail vision be funded and built?

  • No, should not be funded and not be built.

    Votes: 6 40.0%
  • Yes, should be funded and built.

    Votes: 9 60.0%

  • Total voters
    15

beautifulplanet

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
337
Following an inspiration by other polls like this one and the recent thread about high-speed rail's 50th birthday,

here's a poll about high-speed rail. :)

This poll is about a possible future rail improvement project in the Northeast Corridor between Boston, New York City and Washington, D.C. - including both upgrades to the present rail lines as well as a new next-Generation high-speed rail service of up to 220mph. In case all the incremental improvements proposed were turned into a reality, trip times for the fastest non-stop services between Boston and New York would come down to 94 minutes, New York to Washington to 94 minutes, New York to Philadelphia to 37 minutes and Philadelphia to Washington just 54 minutes. All the benefits of the proposed project (like a projected 2040 annual operating surplus of $1,650 million dollars - so then it'd be more than one and a half billion dollars in profits every year) can be found in Amtrak's 2012 Updated Vision for the Northeast Corridor:

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/453/325/Amtrak-Vision-for-the-Northeast-Corridor.pdfhttp://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/453/325/Amtrak-Vision-for-the-Northeast-Corridor.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nope. Their NEC HSR plan veers into overpriced absurdities and, as I recall, includes a lot of things for the benefit of commuter rail rather than intercity. The money would be far better spent on incremental improvements to the NEC and to extending the NEC north, south, and west.
 
Will There Be a "Tipping Point" for High-Speed Rail in the U.S.?

The editors of SPEEDLINES, a publication of the American Public Transportation Association Committee on High-Speed & Intercity Passenger Rail, recently held a roundtable entitled "What will be the 'tipping point' for high-speed rail in the U.S.?"

The publication's publisher and roundtable organizer and moderator, Al Engel, introduced the panel discussion as follows:

"When Japan launched its Bullet Train (Shinkansen) service between Tokyo and Osaka in October 1964 it was heralded as the dawn of a new mode of transportation. Shortly afterward, President Johnson in his January 1965 State of the Union address called for a national high speed rail (HSR) program beginning with the Northeast Corridor. But who would have imagined that 50 years later we would see this mode embraced by most industrialized nations with over 14,000 miles in service globally, and the U.S. not among them? France launched its national program in 1981 with the Paris-Lyon route. Germany opened its first line in 1992 with Spain following close behind in 1992. Other European and Asain countries followed. Mainland China opened its first line in 2003 and now has as many route miles in operation as the rest of the world combined. In this HSR 50th Anniversary year it is appropriate to discuss the question and we have a panel of distinguished thought leaders to do so."

Reproduced below are the prepared remarks of Innovation Briefs' editor, Ken Orski, who was one of seven panelists. A summary of the full proceedings of the roundtable will be published in the next quarterly issue of SPEEDLINES.

###
Count me among the skeptics.

I doubt there will ever be a tipping point for a national program of high-speed rail--- if by a "national program" we mean creating a continent-wide network of dedicated intercity passenger rail lines, and by "high speed rail " we mean trains running at average speeds of 250 km/hour (roughly 150 mph) or higher –the international standard for high speed rail.

That, indeed, was President Obama’s vision when he pledged in his 2011 State of the Union address to give "80 percent of Americans access to high-speed rail" within 25 years. But his vision lacked realism and its implementation left much to be desired. The plan failed to convince Congress or to inspire the public, and today the goal remains as distant as it was when first announced five years ago. As the New York Times succinctly observed, the high-speed rail projects "have gone mostly nowhere." ($11 Billion Later, High-Speed Rail Is Inching Along, The New York Times, Aug. 6, 2014)

Former Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood liked to justify a national HSR program by drawing a parallel with the commitment to build the Interstate Highway system. But the analogy is misleading. What made the Interstate highway program politically feasible and financially sound was the concept of a user fee collected from millions of highway users and dedicated exclusively to the program. A national rail program could not hope to have this kind of revenue stream. Instead, it would need to depend on massive federal subsidies for years to come.

Does anyone really think that Congress would lend bipartisan support to such a venture? All evidence points to the contrary: Congress has refused to fund high-speed rail three years in a row, most recently by ignoring the Administration's proposal for a four-year $302 billion transportation bill with $20 billion dedicated to high-speed rail. Nor are Congressional attitudes likely to change during the next two years. The Obama Administration has lost credibility with the lawmakers of both parties concerning the high speed rail program and is unlikely to regain it in view of its unfulfilled promises and wasteful handling of the $11 billion program.It will be up to some other future President to convince Congress of the need to place high-speed rail again on the national agenda.

Aside from the political obstacles, the United States lacks the geography, demographics and cultural tradition that would justify a vast, nationwide system of high-speed rail. It does not have the population concentrations, the closely-spaced cities, the exorbitant gasoline prices and a public accustomed to traveling by train ---all of which have made high speed trains popular, economically viable and perhaps even essential in densely populated countries such as France, Germany and Japan. What is more, the U.S. is endowed with a well-developed network of regional air services which serve as an effective substitute for fast train service and very likely have depressed demand for it.

The Northeast Corridor is the most likely HSR candidate

Having said this, I do think true high speed rail service will one day become a reality in the Northeast Corridor. Growing levels of highway and airspace congestion in the Corridor combined with rising population densities and traffic growth will make fast and efficient rail service a necessity. The crowded NE Corridor will eventually need another travel option besides driving or flying.

What’s more the NE Corridor posesses all the necessary attributes to make high speed rail service economically viable. Specifically:

* The Corridor has several (6) city-pairs that are major population centers and travel generators;

* The market for rail travel in those cities is already well-established, with 200 million annual riders according to Amtrak;

* Distances between the city-pairs are less than 300 miles— which makes travel by rail competitive timewise with the car and the plane;

* All cities in the Corridor have extensive transit systems that can distribute travelers from the rail stations to their ultimate destinations; and

* The NE Corridor is the only travel corridor in the nation where passenger trains already run on dedicated track, without having to share it with lumbering freight trains.

But even in the best of circumstances, deploying HSR in the NE Corridor is going to take time. Amtrak, in its "Vision Statement," has proposed a phased implementation program extending over the next 25 years, through 2040. This probably errs on the side of optimism, especially if a segment of the line north of New York City as far as Providence RI is to be placed in a new, more direct alignment, as proposed in Amtrak’s "Next Generation HSR" concept.

As for other places— notably California, Florida and Texas — that are independently pursuing high-speed rail projects within their own borders (the last two totally without federal funding), only time will tell whether they will have the fiscal capacity, political support, entrepreneurial skill and underlying demographics necessary for a successful deployment of true high-speed rail service.

For now, the future of all three projects appears uncertain. The California bullet train is mired in controversy, with prospects of continued litigation and with polls showing waning public support. The project is facing a serious technical challenge in meeting a statutory requirement of a two hour-40 minute run between LA and San Francisco, a distance of 520 miles. Questions also remain how the $68 billion project is to be paid for, even assuming an infusion of funds from the state's cap-and-trade program. The hoped-for funding from the private sector has failed to materialize.and future prospects for private capital coming to the rescue appear dim.

The Texas project, a 240-mile dedicated high-speed line between Houston and Dallas, faces no major technical problems, relying as it does on Japan's bullet train technology, but its ability to attract private investment capital is still untested. Florida's proposed high-speed rail line connecting Miami and Orlando finds itself in a similar situation.

In sum, while the prospect for true high-speed services in certain heavily travelled and densely populated corridors appears plausible, don't count on riding European-style bullet trains in this country any time soon!
 
It should be noted that the Amtrak 2012 Vision referred to above is already somewhat obsolete and will be superseded completely by whatever comes out of the NEC Futures activity mentioned in it. The NEC Futures group is going to come up with their shortlisted list of alternatives, reportedly there are four build alternatives and one no build, sometime in November this year for review and comments. The Tier 1 EIS Final Report is now planned for in late 2015.

Apparently all the weird routes outside of the current ROW between New York and Washington DC have been dropped except for a few minor variations - due to extrme high cost for relatively little return. North of New York both the Hartford routing and the Long Island routing has been retained for the time being because large number of additional riders, and the LI routing apparently brings in a rather large number of additional auto to rail changeovers, though it also costs a pretty penny.

Anyway, you'll see the details when they become available in less than a month. There will be a public comment and discussion meeting in Washington DC, New York NY and Boston MA and possibly other locations. I am on the Regional Citizens Committee o will get notifications when these things happen, and will keep y'all posted, if someone else does not take care of that already. I bet afigg will beat me to it. :)

So with that as introductory remarks, I would say that Amtrak's 2012 vision as articulated should not be funded and built, but the actual vetted plan that comes out of the Tier 1 EIS followed by design and Tier 2 process should eventually be funded and built. Having said that, there are elements of the 2012 vision that are inevitably going to be in the NEC Futures plans and naturally those should be funded and built, after they identified as worthy parts of the overall plan. As per PRIIA 2008 which setup both the NEC Futures process and the NEC Commisison, funding will come from a combination of governments and private sources that are yet to be determined. It is almost certain that the entire funding will not come from the federal government.
 
Thank you very much for your post - and being aware this following post is a little off-topic as it is about the NEC Future project and not about Amtrak's 2012 Vision, here is more talk about it: :)

It should be noted that the Amtrak 2012 Vision referred to above is already somewhat obsolete and will be superseded completely by whatever comes out of the NEC Futures activity mentioned in it.
So some might think, in conclusion that means, that until the NEC Future's final report comes out, the Amtrak 2012 Vision is not obsolete, as it is the most recent document clearly proposing one path forward in regards to more capacity, more tracks, more services (of all kinds) and additional services within the Northeast Corridor. Many might think, it might seem like a joke to conduct a poll at this point of time asking "Should the alternative scoring best in the NEC Future Tier 1 EIS final report be funded and built?" when it's not even clear yet which one that will be. :)

So with that as introductory remarks, I would say that Amtrak's 2012 vision as articulated should not be funded and built, but the actual vetted plan that comes out of the Tier 1 EIS followed by design and Tier 2 process should eventually be funded and built.
This could make some wonder if the poll question should be modified to make it clear: As the results of the NEC Future project are not known yet, should Amtrak's 2012 vision not be funded and not be built, or be funded or build, if there were just these two choices. ;) And then in 1 year a poll with 3 answer possibilites can be started: should Amtrak's 2012 vision be built, should the plan emerging out of the final report of NEC Future be build, or should nothing be built? ;)

To provide some further information, here is the link to the NEC Future website:

http://www.necfuture.com/

The latest Preliminary Alternatives Report, part 2 of a three-part process, can be found here:

http://www.necfuture.com/pdfs/prelim_alts_report.pdf

So when it comes to speculating about what alignments NEC Future might bring:

Apparently all the weird routes outside of the current ROW between New York and Washington DC have been dropped except for a few minor variations - due to extrme high cost for relatively little return. North of New York both the Hartford routing and the Long Island routing has been retained for the time being because large number of additional riders, and the LI routing apparently brings in a rather large number of additional auto to rail changeovers, though it also costs a pretty penny.

Anyway, you'll see the details when they become available in less than a month.
Looking at the Preliminary Alternatives in above PDF, it might seem to many like Preliminary Alternative 13 resembles Amtrak's 2012 Vision the most. About "all the weird routes outside of the current ROW between New York and Washington DC have been dropped except for a few minor variations" - it seems like the only Alternative proposing a new ROW outside the current ROW between New York and Washington DC is Alternative 15 via Delmarva. And some might think when Alternative 14 and Alternative 15 include a crossing of the Long Island Sound, then even if Alternative 13 includes a new ROW from New Rochelle via Danbury, Waterbury and Hartford to Boston as a costly item, that might still end up as cheaper and more beneficial than those Long Island Sound crossings, even if Long Island represents a large ridership potential. Some might regard it as important that Alternative 13 includes a "Second NEC spine", so two new tracks connecting major cities in the NEC, translating to more capacity (also for commuter rail and intercity rail services, not only for new high-speed "SuperExpress" services, as the document calls them; virtually all rail services would benefit) and higher operational quality. For some, it still might remain important though that also when the new Final Report will be published, that then at least most concepts of the 2012 NEC Vision remain intact in at least one alternative, f.e. that even when Alternative 13's "Second NEC spine" stays roughly along the exiting ROW between Washington D.C. and New York City, that then the trip times proposed in the Vision would at least roughly still be realized. Many might think that the NEC already offers a number of high-speed services that do not offer substancially faster trip times than the Regional services, so in the future it might be desirable to not only realize half-baked investments like in the past but instead significant investment would be needed to realize more capacity as well as faster trip times and better operational quality to fully deliver the economic benefits of rail to area residents, visitors and businesses, and thus the whole economy within the Northeast Corridor.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It does not matter what the poll question is. The reality is that beyond what is already under discussion for funding e.g. the Bridges, Baltimore tunnel and Gateway, nothing else will be even up for discussion for funding until the NEC Futures exercise is completed. Reality is that even Gateway is unlikely to get substantially funded before FY 16. Also Amtrak has very clearly said that they will have no opinion about what project should be moved forward other than relatively minor infrastructure fixing, north/east of New York until the NEC Futures exercise is completed.

Many of the alternatives shown in the 2013 document are now gone. We will get the 2014 document in November. It basically has 4 build alternatives and one no build, is what I was told by one of the authors of it, who was at the NJ-ARP annual meeting this last Sunday in Bound Brook NJ. Also there was a strong hint that there will be very little that will be proposed outside the current ROW between New York and Washington DC. So it is safe to assume that the Delmarva alternative is gone, as are some of the fancier, more expensive bypass tunnel proposals. North of New York both the LI and the Hartford alternatives are still there as I mentioned earlier.

All this kind of reflects one of the strong feedback that they got from the citizens advisory group that they must not propose some unrealistically expensive proposal which has zero chance of getting funded given the overall funding needs for transportation in the north east. Also they were told that HSR is not the be all and end all goal of the exercise. Most people still will travel on Regional and Commuter/Suburban trains and their needs must be addressed adequately, and funding should be equitably applied to HS and Regional interests equitably. That changed the whole equation quite a bit apparently.

But we'll have to wait another several weeks before we see the real thing.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think it's a good idea and should happen... but as others have said it most likely won't happen with the amount of funding Congress allocates. Amtrak barely has enough to upgrade the NEC as is (immediate hurdles are repairing the North River tunnels and building the new Gateway tunnels), let alone build and maintain a whole new set of dedicated high speed class 8 or 9 rail. It would require a miracle influx of cash. I actually think a private company would do quite well managing such a HSR network seperately from Amtrak and would also appease certain members of Congress... but again getting the system built in the first place is something I just don't see happening. At least in the era we live in. It will happen eventually as the populations of the major cities increase clogging up the roads and the air travel experience continues to degrade... but not the current proposal.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This overall project will happen only when the state governments along the route pitch in fair proportion over and above what comes from the feds. There may be additional funds available also from some private real estate interests and from agencies like the Port Authority of NY and NJ whose responsibility it is to provide trans-Hudson mobility, among other things.

Think about it. Almost all of the capacity problems at New York Penn Station is due to LIRR and NJT, not Amtrak. Due to historical reasons Amtrak is left holding the baby. So who do you suppose should fund all this additional infrastructure to take care of LIRR and NJT's needs. Yes, the Feds should cover some, but the states cannot go scot free and get a free lunch IMHO.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I voted "no" because parts of Amtrak's plan are *very silly*, particularly in Philadelphia.

I think Gateway should be funded, I think the new Baltimore Tunnels should be funded, but I don't think the entire plan should be funded.

Honestly, the NEC is OK. It's owned by passenger operators and it runs pretty fast and pretty reliably. Yes, it needs some important upgrades (those tunnels, constant-tension catenary, high platforms everywhere, new Penn Station NY, etc.).

But after that, the priority should be *other routes*. And there are so many of them! In my backyard, the Empire Corridor needs a pair of passenger-exclusive tracks all the way to Buffalo. "South of the Lake" passenger tracks from Chicago east to where the trains split off in all directions are an extremely urgent priority. The SEHSR corridor from DC to Richmond, Raleigh, Winston-Salem, Charlotte, and onward to Atlanta deserves huge investment. Then there's the routes in California. And there's Minneapolis to Chicago. And Omaha to Chicago via the cities in Iowa. And several routes in Texas. New Orleans to Mobile. New Orleans to Baton Rouge. Syracuse NY-Binghamton NY-Scranton PA-NYC. Bethelehem-Allentown both to Philly, and to NYC. Tucson to Phoenix. Denver to Fort Collins. And so on and so forth.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
My views aren't far off of Nathanael's. I'd like to see some speed improvements (2:15 WAS-NYP and 3:00 NYP-BOS are workable goals), the tunnels need replacing and expanding at Baltimore and New York, etc. But after that, there are numerous projects more worthy of attention (knocking WAS-RVR down to 90 minutes, etc.). Basically, once you get to some of those long-standing goals the emphasis should be on a larger network of that than of trying to knock times down more on that (relatively limited) stretch.
 
Back
Top