Possible CP-NS merger and Amtrak
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Given the popularity of oil trains, how about CanTankerUs?
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neroden
Engineer
Hunter Harrison likes mergers, but he's not going to get this one. The Canadian government would have second thoughts about it, and the US government would almost certainly reject it. Also, NS doesn't *want* to be merged.
There's one particularly serious hurdle for this merger: *CP doesn't connect to NS* west of Albany NY, with the possible exception of Kansas City (and I don't think that connects either). The connection in Detroit is through Conrail, and there's no connection at all in Chicago.
So there's no economies of scale gained.
Trying to run traffic over the connecting lines would be met with massive demands from the other Class Is (or Conrail, in the case of Detroit) whose lines they'd have to run over. This is on top of all the *other* demands that the competing Class Is would be able to make as merger conditions.
If Harrison is idiot enough to try this, it is a good time to demand lots of conditions for the benefit of passengers. For instance, complete construction of South of the Lake and gifting it to Amtrak. And guaranteed slots for a half-hourly Pennsylvanian. And the transfer of the Milwaukee-Glenview line to Amtrak for a penny. And so on.
There's one particularly serious hurdle for this merger: *CP doesn't connect to NS* west of Albany NY, with the possible exception of Kansas City (and I don't think that connects either). The connection in Detroit is through Conrail, and there's no connection at all in Chicago.
So there's no economies of scale gained.
Trying to run traffic over the connecting lines would be met with massive demands from the other Class Is (or Conrail, in the case of Detroit) whose lines they'd have to run over. This is on top of all the *other* demands that the competing Class Is would be able to make as merger conditions.
If Harrison is idiot enough to try this, it is a good time to demand lots of conditions for the benefit of passengers. For instance, complete construction of South of the Lake and gifting it to Amtrak. And guaranteed slots for a half-hourly Pennsylvanian. And the transfer of the Milwaukee-Glenview line to Amtrak for a penny. And so on.
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Mystic River Dragon
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Do any of you more in the know than I am have any insight into the timing of this? I'm just wondering if, with Wick Moorman having just retired, if CP is trying this now, when NS management is in transition.
As for the symbol, I love the beautiful NS horse, but I like beavers, too. How about that cute beaver riding on the elegant horse?
As for the symbol, I love the beautiful NS horse, but I like beavers, too. How about that cute beaver riding on the elegant horse?
jis
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Yup! Absolutely! Get ready to plant your tall Christmas tree with all the ornaments request in front of Harrison's door as a precondition for him to open this door, and let him deal with it.
Acela150
Super Buff
No internal e-mails or any memos have been passed out about a possible merger.. It should also be mentioned that NS stock went up as soon as word got out. A lot of guys at my terminal think it's just for the shareholders. To this I will leave my opinion off the inter webs. I will also leave my opinion on whether I'd like to see it happen or not also off the web.
Acela150
Super Buff
Considering a post made by another member after an earlier post I made, I felt that I should state my opinions will be left out. If you have an issue with that, well I don't know what to tell you.
Technically, they do connect in Chicago although not in a useful way. Rondout to A-2, although owned by Metra, is dispatched by CP. And NS reaches A-2 via trackage rights on UP (replacing the abandoned Panhandle to A-2) so that they can reach ADM via what I believe is called the Western Ave. Industrial Track (former track 4 of the North Joint Tracks between A-2 and CUS). Why is NS switching ADM? The North Joint Tracks are ex-Pandhandle. At some point, MILW was sold a half-interest in them (hence the "Joint" name) but I'm assuming PRR (successor to the Panhandle) retained the freight rights. From there, those rights passed through PC and Conrail to end up with NS today.
As a more practical measure, Chicago railroads in many respects operate like a public highway. Anyone can go almost anywhere (a joint guide/rules/timetable) is published. So lack of a physical connection isn't a barrier. Just hop on the Belt (Railway of Chicago) or the Indiana Harbor Belt to get from one to the other. IHB's north end is at CP's Bensenville yard and BRC's north end is five miles east of there at Cragin (technically Cicero West these days) on the Metra MD-W. Riding the MD-W, I see NS trains going to Bensenville all the time (usually off the BRC). Road trains using other railroads in Chicago to get to another railroad's yard is a long tradition in Chicago.
neroden
Engineer
Lack of a physical connection is a barrier to a *merger*, because Chicago traffic is in a *traffic jam*. Sure, you could send CP traffic to NS via a dozen other roads in Chicago. And be low priority traffic. And gain absolutely nothing by it, relative to what you have now when CP and NS are separate companies, and already send traffic to each other.
In order to gain something by the merger, you actually want a direct connection between the two railroads. Genesee & Wyoming owns a bunch of disconnected railroads, but they don't merge them in any way, they're just an investment fund which collects railroads.
If Harrison is really interested in performing stock shenanigans, CP might "merge with" NS the way Santa Fe Industries merged with Southern Pacific Company. The railroads never merged, but lots of corporate manipulation happened to extract money from the non-railroad assets. Do CP and NS have a lot of non-railroad assets in their holding companies?
(Actually, NS might. CP got rid of the last of its non-railroad assets in 2001. But the list of subsidiaries of the NS holding company in Wikipedia is very long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Southern_Corporation....there may be a lot of saleable land in there.)
In order to gain something by the merger, you actually want a direct connection between the two railroads. Genesee & Wyoming owns a bunch of disconnected railroads, but they don't merge them in any way, they're just an investment fund which collects railroads.
If Harrison is really interested in performing stock shenanigans, CP might "merge with" NS the way Santa Fe Industries merged with Southern Pacific Company. The railroads never merged, but lots of corporate manipulation happened to extract money from the non-railroad assets. Do CP and NS have a lot of non-railroad assets in their holding companies?
(Actually, NS might. CP got rid of the last of its non-railroad assets in 2001. But the list of subsidiaries of the NS holding company in Wikipedia is very long: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Southern_Corporation....there may be a lot of saleable land in there.)
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So its a raid, and not a merge?
the_traveler
Engineer
I was on the Ethan Allen on 11/15 and at the SDY station, an intermodal freight passed thru on the freight track. This train was led by 3 locomotives - all NS which I found very strange. This trackage is (AFAIK) still CP and has no NS service at all!
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neroden
Engineer
NS purchased the line from Schenectady to Scranton (and beyond to Sunbury). Quite recently. It was discussed on railroad.net. This trackage is now pretty much entirely NS, though there's some arrangement for local service around Schenectady.
Ryan
Court Jester
And railroads swap power all the time, seeing locomotives from a particular company doesn't really do much to indicate line ownership.
jis
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Yeah. The traveler would find it even stranger when he sees a mix of UP and BNSF locomotives chugging along the NEC in a lashup with an NS unit presumably with the NEC Cab signal gear leading the colorful combo!
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Acela150
Super Buff
Yes, and from what I have heard the crews that were CP crews that got basically forced to NS lost all their seniority and everyone went back to 0.
While this would be an interesting sight. It will never happen. Amtrak doesn't allow any foreign power.
This was just posted by NS on their Facebook page.
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/news/norfolk-southernboardofdirectorstoevaluateunsolicitedlowpremiumn.html
neroden
Engineer
Apparently there's more work, though, since NS is running a lot more trains than CP was (and maintaining the track better).
That's a polite way of saying "This is an insulting offer, no way". I suppose CP might make a hostile takeover attempt, but I don't think they have the cash. If they do, they'll never get regulatory approval for the merger, so it'll be a raid on the non-railroad assets of the holding company.
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Thirdrail7
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Yes they have and yes they will as long as arrangements are made in advance so clearance bureau can investigate. When the Anacostia bridge was closed, all kinds of weird things operated on the NEC.
Acela150
Super Buff
Must be an NS rule then.. All I know is that any train we take over Amtrak has to have Cab Signals, (Obviously) and LSL's cut in.
Acela150
Super Buff
An internal e-mail was put out at NS yesterday. It stated that the "Board" would look at the offer an consider it. IMO it seemed like there is no interest in this offer.
Don't read to much into that. They have a duty to their investors to do due diligence on any offer.
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Carolina Special
Lead Service Attendant
Since the offer price was $20 below the 52 week high, I expect the due diligence at NSC would go pretty quick.
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