Put the Engineers to rest

[battalion51]

OK, I spoke to an Engineer friend of mine on Friday about running with a Fireman. An Engineer is required to run with a Fireman when he is scheduled to be on duty for a period of time longer than six hours (according to the contract agreement between Amtrak and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers). This is why a Conductor's time ticket shows a slot for a second engineer on duty. But as a general rule Engineers and Conductors usually go off duty at the same place.

 

[tubaallen]

I still disagree. I mean you're right about the shift length and so forth, but most of the time the hog-heads stay within that limit and work by themselves, whereas the conductors work the longer shifts. For example, on 5 out of CHI, the original engineer is done at OTM, whereas the conductors go on to OMA. Then at that point, the engineers switch again. This happens almost the whole way through the trip.

 

[Amfleet]

Don't get me wrong on this one, but I think conductors should be eliminated. Why not have an engineer, then have an assistant engineer who takes orders from the dispatcher. Then for collecting tickets and such Amtrak should reinstate the Chief of On-Board Service position and have him or her collect tickets and be in charge of the on-board crew. This is how VIA Rail does it. A few extra COBS could be assigned to NEC trains that require more than one person to collect all the tickets.

 

[tubaallen]

Amfleet...I haven't heard of this before. That's an interesting concept...I don't know much at all about VIA, either...so this is just the fault of my ignorance, but I am interested. However, a couple of first thoughts I have that would make this tough: Mainly, this would mean that the Chief would have to be up at all hours of the trip. No sleep for him. This is not realistic. As for my other reason...I would just miss the traditional conductor .

 

[AlanB]

However, a couple of first thoughts I have that would make this tough: Mainly, this would mean that the Chief would have to be up at all hours of the trip. No sleep for him. This is not realistic. As for my other reason...I would just miss the traditional conductor .

I agree, it would be very tough on the Chief. Not only would he be up all night collecting tickets, he have to be up at every station to give the engineer's the high ball. Plus you'd need to add a whole new level of training for the chief's position.

Not to mention that you'd generally be replacing two crew members for one. Since Amtrak normally runs with a conductor and an assistant conductor, you'd be replacing them with just a Chief.

Back when all LD train's carried a chief, the good ones really had their hands full already. They were required to deal with problems in the diner, problems in the lounge, and many other things. In fact I’ve seen a crew chief trying to fix the A/C in a diner once. While there were a few chiefs that I think just hid in the crew dorm, most that I encountered really were quite busy just doing their job. They don't need more things to do on top of that.

I think that Amtrak needs to keep the conductors; in addition they need to restore the Crew Chief position system wide on all LD trains. We need more crew on the train, not less. I do think that Amtrak does need to hold the chief's more accountable though, this way the bad eggs just can't hide out and goof off.

 

[Amfleet]

Acutally, I beleive VIA has two of these "Chiefs" pers train who alternate hours. As for giving a highball that's a pretty simple task. The assistant engineer in the cab though could be resposible for checking the train and would essentaily be "in charge" of the train. What ever he says, goes. The cab crew could change every 8-10 hours, but the Cheifs would be along for the whole journey. It's an idea to ponder.

 

[AlanB]

As for giving a highball that's a pretty simple task. The assistant engineer in the cab though could be resposible for checking the train and would essentaily be "in charge" of the train.

I'm not sure that would work, except for big cities, 90% of time the engine is well past the platform. It would be very hard for the Assistant engineer to see the platforms and the cars, especially at night. It would also be a huge safety factor issue to have him climb down and walk back to check on what's going on at night.

Frankly I'd much rather stay with one engineer in the cab, a conductor, an AC, and a Chief. I'd even give up forever my chocolate chip cookies for this. I think that it's worth it to have this level of staffing. I also think its far better to have a fresh conductor every 6 to 8 hours, instead of two tired crew chiefs.

I kind of suspected that Via might have more than one chief. I would also question does Via's chief's have the same level of duties and responsibilities as does Amtrak's chief's. Somehow I suspect that a Via COB has different duties than Amtrak's do.

 

[Amfleet]

I would also expect Canada does not have as strict railroad safety rules as in the US. I still think though that there should be 2 engineers in the cab, then a Conductor and On-Board Chief in the passenger cars. I have always felt that an assistant conductor is kind of unneeded on LD's. The Conductor and OBC can hadle station shops just fine I would think.

 

[AlanB]

I would also expect Canada does not have as strict railroad safety rules as in the US.

Yes, that's quite true. In fact those new cars that VIA is placing into service came from Europe. When they never saw service over there, VIA brought them on the cheap. I strongly suspect that they would not meet FRA crash standards, yet VIA accepted them.

I still think though that there should be 2 engineers in the cab, then a Conductor and On-Board Chief in the passenger cars. I have always felt that an assistant conductor is kind of unneeded on LD's.

Can I ask why? I’m not trying to be a pain in the neck or super critical. I’d just like to understand why you think it’s more important to have a fireman than an AC.

I would think that it's far more important to have more trained personnel with the passengers in case of an emergency, not in the engine. With today's modern electronics’ and dead man's features, the chances of problems occurring in the engine are minimized.

Yes, if Amtrak were rolling in the dough, if the government were spending money properly, I would love to see a fireman in the engine. But until and unless Congress wakes up, and even more importantly the President wakes up and smells the coffee, I'd rather have the extra personnel back with the passengers.

Just my 2 cents. :lol:

 

[tubaallen]

Alan, you're exactly right that Amtrak ain't rollin in dough. That's exactly why I wouldn't put a chief back on the train, YET. From what I understand, and what I saw over the summer with the PLS's, it is the contrary: the majority of them were NOT doing their jobs, where as there were a few good exceptions that worked their asses off. Since this is the case, I would think this is a good place for Amtrak to cut corners on cash, since hopefully the crew is either going to do their job or not....on their own.

 

[Steve4031]

One aspect that I dont see mentioned in this discussion is the distinction between operating crew and on-board service crew. The conductor, assistant conductor, Engineer, and Fireman all are responsible in someway for running the train safely over the railroad. The conductor and assistant conductor perform many duties related to the operation of the train. I know the assistant conductor usually rides in the last car and moniotors, I think, all the radio transmisions from hot box detectors and so forth. Also, the AC, at times gets off to throw a hand switch in certain situations. Other times, he is suppose to protect the rear of the train if it is stopped.

Now I know there is a lot of modern technology out there, be we all know that this stuff fails at times. Remember the last time your computer crashed . . .Thus the need of real people to step up and do the job when the technology fails.

 

[tubaallen]

Steve,

That is a very good point. I think most of us probably realize that they are two different crews, and we're just considering changing that organization into something different, where the Chief would then sort of be on both crew types.

By the way, as far as the AC goes on most LD trains, I can tell you with complete certainty that the AC just stays up in the crew car with the conductor and BS's when they aren't collecting tickets, throwing switches, or spotting the train. The hotbox transmissions reach well outside the range of the train...there were multiple times over the summer that I heard hotbox transmissions from freights on other rails....several miles away from us.

 

[battalion51]

You guys also forgot several key things that the Concuctors an AC's do. They are responsible for making sure Engineers are aware of upcoming slow orders. Determining how many cars back they need a stop at, they are also reponsible for making reverse moves, throwing switches etc. Conductors are indespinsable.

 

[tubaallen]

You guys also forgot several key things that the Concuctors an AC's do. They are responsible for making sure Engineers are aware of upcoming slow orders. Determining how many cars back they need a stop at, they are also reponsible for making reverse moves, throwing switches etc. Conductors are indespinsable.

Good point. Don't know if you all knew this or not, but if an engineer blows a slow order, not only is he/she instantly removed from duty, but so are the conductors. The whole operating crew has to be replaced. They are a team.