Question: Amtrak Pacific Division General Order No. 2011-S5

[1990Conductor]

Hello Group.

I've got a question about an Amtrak Pacific Division General Order No. #2011-S5

This particular rule in in effect for Amtrak nation wide per the appropriate location

Division General Orders.

 

Amtrak Pacific Division General Order.

In reference to Amtrak Pacific Division General Order No. 2011-S5

Page 6 of 22. Item C. Crew Member Communications:

#2. Communication Between Head End And Crew Member in Body of Train:

b. Train Encounters Restrictive Signal Aspect

1) reduction in speed (including track flags)

2) movement onto a diverging route,

3) that it be prepared to stop at the next signal, or

4)that it be prepared to pass the next signal at Restricted Speed

 

A crew member occupying the body of the passenger train must acknowledge

this transmission. If acknowledgement is not received, the Engineer must determine

the reason at the next at the next scheduled stop.

 

If the train stops for any reason after passing a signal indicated above, the

Conductor must remind the Engineer of the signal aspect or name before or immediately after resuming movement.

 

So what the rule is saying. If you take a siding for a station stop diverging off the main line;

you take the siding on a "diverging approach" when it's time to depart the siding and the

engineer can not see the departure signal ahead; the conductor upon "high balling" the train must

remind the Engineer of the signal aspect or name (of the signal that you came in on)

before or immediately after resuming movement.

Conductor: Engineer on Amtk 77 East OK to depart (station name) reminder came in on an

Approach signal.

 

I know Amtrak put into effect this particular rule just a few years ago. I'm saying this rule went into

affect in late 2008 and my engineer says this rule went into affect in 2009.

 

Does anyone know the exact publication date of this Amtrak Division General Order

when this rule took effect? We would like to know for sure.

Thanks all.

 

[railiner]

I am somewhat surprised to read of this.....I had thought that Amtrak only had operating rules such as this on their own rails such as the NEC, or the Michigan line, etc.

How long has this been going on?

 

[jis]

This sounds awfully like some kind of a workaround to avoid the DIB rule which requires you to proceed to the next signal at restricted speed. Or maybe it is an implementation of some aspect of the DIB rule. The DIB rule came into existence after the MARC Amtrak crash just outside of Washington DC. I forget the year off the top of my head.

 

[Trogdor]

I know Amtrak put into effect this particular rule just a few years ago. I'm saying this rule went into

affect in late 2008 and my engineer says this rule went into affect in 2009.

Does anyone know the exact publication date of this Amtrak Division General Order

when this rule took effect? We would like to know for sure.

Thanks all.[/size]

Few people on this group are actually qualified on railroads, so they wouldn't be able to answer your question for sure. I'd contact your local rules person for further clarification on this question.

I am somewhat surprised to read of this.....I had thought that Amtrak only had operating rules such as this on their own rails such as the NEC, or the Michigan line, etc.

How long has this been going on?

Railroads have rules that govern their own employees/trains, even when operating on another railroad's territory. Whenever rules conflict, the more restrictive rule applies.

Amtrak has plenty of rules that you wouldn't find on other railroads because Amtrak operates passenger trains, whereas most other railroads don't (that said, even freight railroads sometimes do have their own rules for passenger trains).

This sounds awfully like some kind of a workaround to avoid the DIB rule which requires you to proceed to the next signal at restricted speed. Or maybe it is an implementation of some aspect of the DIB rule. The DIB rule came into existence after the MARC Amtrak crash just outside of Washington DC. I forget the year off the top of my head.

1) There is no workaround for DIB. If you are delayed in block, you are delayed in block, regardless of what radio conversations take place between the conductor and engineer.

2) DIB does not automatically require restricted speed. That only applies in ABS territory. If you are in CTC territory, trains can travel up to 40 mph, ready to stop at the next signal (at least, that's the GCOR rule, other rule books may have different requirements).

The conductor reminding the engineer of the previous signal is just an added layer of protection, especially if the previous signal was one that limited the train's speed even lower than 40 mph (on some railroads, for example, an approach signal limits you to 30 mph).

 

[jis]

1) There is no workaround for DIB. If you are delayed in block, you are delayed in block, regardless of what radio conversations take place between the conductor and engineer.

2) DIB does not automatically require restricted speed. That only applies in ABS territory. If you are in CTC territory, trains can travel up to 40 mph, ready to stop at the next signal (at least, that's the GCOR rule, other rule books may have different requirements).

The conductor reminding the engineer of the previous signal is just an added layer of protection, especially if the previous signal was one that limited the train's speed even lower than 40 mph (on some railroads, for example, an approach signal limits you to 30 mph).

Ah OK. Thanks Trogdor for clarifying that. I was just stating something based on vague memory.

 

[leemell]

Hello Group.

I've got a question about an Amtrak Pacific Division General Order No. #2011-S5

This particular rule in in effect for Amtrak nation wide per the appropriate location

Division General Orders.

 

Amtrak Pacific Division General Order.

In reference to Amtrak Pacific Division General Order No. 2011-S5

Page 6 of 22. Item C. Crew Member Communications:

#2. Communication Between Head End And Crew Member in Body of Train:

b. Train Encounters Restrictive Signal Aspect

1) reduction in speed (including track flags)

2) movement onto a diverging route,

3) that it be prepared to stop at the next signal, or

4)that it be prepared to pass the next signal at Restricted Speed

 

A crew member occupying the body of the passenger train must acknowledge

this transmission. If acknowledgement is not received, the Engineer must determine

the reason at the next at the next scheduled stop.

 

If the train stops for any reason after passing a signal indicated above, the

Conductor must remind the Engineer of the signal aspect or name before or immediately after resuming movement.

 

So what the rule is saying. If you take a siding for a station stop diverging off the main line;

you take the siding on a "diverging approach" when it's time to depart the siding and the

engineer can not see the departure signal ahead; the conductor upon "high balling" the train must

remind the Engineer of the signal aspect or name (of the signal that you came in on)

before or immediately after resuming movement.

Conductor: Engineer on Amtk 77 East OK to depart (station name) reminder came in on an

Approach signal.

 

I know Amtrak put into effect this particular rule just a few years ago. I'm saying this rule went into

affect in late 2008 and my engineer says this rule went into affect in 2009.

 

Does anyone know the exact publication date of this Amtrak Division General Order

when this rule took effect? We would like to know for sure.

Thanks all.

This is a very detailed operational question. Since you are new here, I want to make sure you know that web site is not affiliated in any way with Amtrak, just a bunch of us really interested in Amtrak. Some are real, professional railroaders, but most are not.

 

[railiner]

So, Amtrak now has a "Pacific Division"? Is that what became of what was called the Western Division?

I am curious as to how Amtrak is now divided nationally....what divisions are there, and where roughly? Is there a map online somewhere?

I have not been cognizant of this area for a very long time..... Thanks for any replies.

 

[sechs]

It's been here for some time. If I recall correctly, it's just California, as the Pacific Northwest has its own division.

 

[Acela150]

Isn't the proper term for departing a station: "Amtrak 176 ok to go out of Providence on Signal Idication." that's what comes over the scanner at least. Not saying its correct but I'm willing to be corrected.

 

[jis]

Isn't the proper term for departing a station: "Amtrak 176 ok to go out of Providence on Signal Indication." that's what comes over the scanner at least. Not saying its correct but I'm willing to be corrected.

That applies when there is a signal visible in front of the train, or in case of Providence RI, there is cab signal. The situation being discussed is where there is no signal visible ahead of the train and there is no cab signal. In this case the train needs to proceed according to the aspect it saw on the last signal it passed before stopping at the station. And as explained by Trogdor, different rules apply depending on what kind of signaling territory you are in.

 

[Acela150]

Got it. Just a little confusing at times.

 

[1990Conductor]

This sounds awfully like some kind of a workaround to avoid the DIB rule which requires you to proceed to the next signal at restricted speed. Or maybe it is an implementation of some aspect of the DIB rule. The DIB rule came into existence after the MARC Amtrak crash just outside of Washington DC. I forget the year off the top of my head.

this is ctc DIB in this subdv an approach is 30 mph, and the turnout is a 30 mph turnout. so in this particular case working on your previous signal "approach" will be more restrictive.

Again my question is: what year (on Amtrak ) did this rule take effect. that you have to remind the engineer that you came in on an approach signal? I think one of our

members here came pretty close when he said the rule took effect in early 2008 after that big freight wreck. Thanks

 

[1990Conductor]

So, Amtrak now has a "Pacific Division"? Is that what became of what was called the Western Division?

I am curious as to how Amtrak is now divided nationally....what divisions are there, and where roughly? Is there a map online somewhere?

I have not been cognizant of this area for a very long time..... Thanks for any replies.

I dont know for sure, but I am pretty sure there are 4 divisions. Pacific div. (No. Calif), western div. so. calif, central division no. usa, & eastern div. acela & new england states.

 

[1990Conductor]

Isn't the proper term for departing a station: "Amtrak 176 ok to go out of Providence on Signal Idication." that's what comes over the scanner at least. Not saying its correct but I'm willing to be corrected.

actually now Amtrak wants you to actually say "Ok to proceed on signal indication" the rule book states along as the phrase "proceed on signal indication" in there.

 

[1990Conductor]

Isn't the proper term for departing a station: "Amtrak 176 ok to go out of Providence on Signal Indication." that's what comes over the scanner at least. Not saying its correct but I'm willing to be corrected.

That applies when there is a signal visible in front of the train, or in case of Providence RI, there is cab signal. The situation being discussed is where there is no signal visible ahead of the train and there is no cab signal. In this case the train needs to proceed according to the aspect it saw on the last signal it passed before stopping at the station. And as explained by Trogdor, different rules apply depending on what kind of signaling territory you are in.

the above is correct. let's say CTC territory. you take a siding on a diverging approach. you stop in the siding, it's now time to proceed and you cannot see the signal ahead of you.

then the conductor should say proceed reminder came in on an approach. your now proceeding forward , you took the siding on a diverging approach (approach) meaning proceed

prepared to stop at the next signal not exceeding 30 mph. generally speaking an approach is a 40 mph signal. I stated 30 mph because thats what the speed is in this particular subdv. thats what Im needing to know. when did amtrak enforce this rule. "reminder came in on an approach" I'm going to call some rules instructors. if i find out anything will post it.

 

[jis]

Thanks for the explanation Conductor. I will be looking out for any information that you are able to find and share on this.

BTW, my wild guess would be that this rule came in after the Kensington MD accident, which also caused the DIB rule to be added. But as I said, just a guess. In that accident a MARC train stopped at a station with no visible signal ahead. It had entered the section under Approach. It departed the station as if it was running Clear, and then came upon a Stop signal at the next home signal and was unable to stop short of the interlocking causing the Capitol Limited to collide into it, if memory serves me right.

 

[AlanB]

BTW, my wild guess would be that this rule came in after the Kensington MD accident, which also caused the DIB rule to be added. But as I said, just a guess. In that accident a MARC train stopped at a station with no visible signal ahead. It had entered the section under Approach. It departed the station as if it was running Clear, and then came upon a Stop signal at the next home signal and was unable to stop short of the interlocking causing the Capitol Limited to collide into it, if memory serves me right.

Overall you've described the accident correctly, however the MARC train crashed into the Capitol Limited, not the other way around. The Cap was already in the interlocking with the lead engine almost totally across. The MARC train unable to stop at the signal plowed into the second F40 and ruptured its fuel tank. Since MARC was running cab car forward, the engineer and at least 1 conductor in the cab will killed outright. The rest of the fatalities were caused by the ensuing fire & smoke from it.

 

[jis]

BTW, my wild guess would be that this rule came in after the Kensington MD accident, which also caused the DIB rule to be added. But as I said, just a guess. In that accident a MARC train stopped at a station with no visible signal ahead. It had entered the section under Approach. It departed the station as if it was running Clear, and then came upon a Stop signal at the next home signal and was unable to stop short of the interlocking causing the Capitol Limited to collide into it, if memory serves me right.

Overall you've described the accident correctly, however the MARC train crashed into the Capitol Limited, not the other way around. The Cap was already in the interlocking with the lead engine almost totally across. The MARC train unable to stop at the signal plowed into the second F40 and ruptured its fuel tank. Since MARC was running cab car forward, the engineer and at least 1 conductor in the cab will killed outright. The rest of the fatalities were caused by the ensuing fire & smoke from it.

Thanks for the correction!

 

[sechs]

So, Amtrak now has a "Pacific Division"? Is that what became of what was called the Western Division?

I am curious as to how Amtrak is now divided nationally....what divisions are there, and where roughly? Is there a map online somewhere?

I have not been cognizant of this area for a very long time..... Thanks for any replies.

I dont know for sure, but I am pretty sure there are 4 divisions. Pacific div. (No. Calif), western div. so. calif, central division no. usa, & eastern div. acela & new england states.

When Amtrak moved back to a divisional structure, the nation was divided into two regions, each with three divisions. However, there's been some merging and slicing since then, so, I think that there are more now.

 

[Acela150]

BTW, my wild guess would be that this rule came in after the Kensington MD accident, which also caused the DIB rule to be added. But as I said, just a guess. In that accident a MARC train stopped at a station with no visible signal ahead. It had entered the section under Approach. It departed the station as if it was running Clear, and then came upon a Stop signal at the next home signal and was unable to stop short of the interlocking causing the Capitol Limited to collide into it, if memory serves me right.

Overall you've described the accident correctly, however the MARC train crashed into the Capitol Limited, not the other way around. The Cap was already in the interlocking with the lead engine almost totally across. The MARC train unable to stop at the signal plowed into the second F40 and ruptured its fuel tank. Since MARC was running cab car forward, the engineer and at least 1 conductor in the cab will killed outright. The rest of the fatalities were caused by the ensuing fire & smoke from it.

Isn't belief among some that if the Cab Car hit the P40 which has a Shroud around the fuel tank it could have prevented or saved some time from the fire starting?? Here is the Wikipedia entry on part of it. Not that Wikipedia is the most reliable source but I think the photo of the memorial is nice. If you ask me during train wrecks the Crew are the most forgotten heroes.

I should also add that most people die from Carbon Monoxide, Carbon Dioxide, Hydrogen Cyanide, Hydrogen Chloride, Nitrogen Dioxide, and Phosgene. The main toxins in smoke. There all in order there. It's very rare that someone dies from burns in a fire. They are most likely to be overcome by the toxins first. Google this stuff and you will be amazed at what it could do to your body and what it is!