Questions re AGR redemption for family bedroom on cross-country trip

[ain't no Metroliner]

Hi. I'm planning my first sleeping car trip and my first sleeping car AGR redemption. My traveling party will be two adults and two children over the age of 2.

My desired trip is:

NYP->CHI on the Cardinal

CHI->EMY on the California Zephyr

overnight in a hotel

EMY->LAX on the Coast Starlight

3 Zones in a Family Bedroom booked before AGR 2.0 should be 60,000 points, correct?

Will the overnight be allowed? I read here about connections of less than 23.5 hours being allowed, even if they don't show up on Amtrak.com as a published route. Is that still the case?

On the California Zephyr and Coast Starlight, I would like to go with a Family Bedroom to use the least amount of AGR points for four people traveling together. But on the Cardinal, which has Viewliners, what will happen? Will I be given two roomettes (or two bedrooms) as part of my 3 zone 60,000 point redemption?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[BCL]

Is that even a published route? I looked up routes from NYP-LAX as a regular booking, and all the routes going through Chicago seem to involve the Texas Eagle or Southwest Chief. The only route I see with the California Zephyr is:

NYP-CHI (Lake Shore Limited)

CHI-SAC (California Zephyr)

SAC-SKN (bus)

SKN-BFD (San Joaquin)

BFD-LAX (bus)

Maybe an AGR agent will be able to do something. In any case you're going to have to call it in since there's a connection involved. A lot of the options for a cash booking seem to go through DC. It has to be a published route. The 23.5 hour connection really only applies to "through pricing" - meaning that making a stopover costs the same as a single trip without the stopover. I don't believe it really matters with regards to AGR redemptions. The route is either available or it isn't. Currently you can't force an AGR redemption route like you can for a paid multi-city route. And when you book multi-city they're not considered guaranteed connections.

Short answer: I don't think you can do it as an AGR redemption, but you could call and find out for sure.

 

[BCL]

OK - I looked again, and there is a 23.5 hour allowance (with an overnight at the passengers' expense) for a connection if it is a published route. They define a "published route" as one that is automatically generated by the reservation system. If you want to do that route, you could probably do it as two redemptions. This is how they describe it:

Where a desired itinerary does not exist as a single published route, the trip must be constructed as a series of published routes using multiple redemptions.

 

[BCL]

Strangely enough, I think you could do NYP-EMY as:

NYP-CHI (Lake Shore Limited)

CHI-LAX (Southwest Chief)

LAX-EMY (Coast Starlight) - kind of a tight connection window though if the SW Chief is late.

As far as I can tell, published routes avoid overnight stays unless there's no other option.

 

[ain't no Metroliner]

In this post: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/55501-clarifications-on-rules-from-agr-insider/?p=446786

...it says that "DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11, are other great examples that would be allowed". If I'm understanding that correctly, it's saying that my itinerary would be allowed, with an overnight in a hotel at my own expense, even though it's not a published route.

 

[ain't no Metroliner]

Also, if I don't yet have enough AGR points in my account for my whole itinerary, will the AGR rep on the phone still talk to me about my itinerary or will he refuse to look into it until I have enough points? I plan on transferring points into AGR once I'm sure my itinerary is approved.

 

[Railroad Bill]

Since there is no family bedroom on the Cardinal or other Viewliner trains. *LSL, etc. ) you would need to book two roomettes in order to accommodate your four members of the family. That would take more points for that section of your trip. So if you wanted to book as you want, you would need a regular bedroom *if your two kids are not infants I do not believe you could book an overnight in a bedroom for all four of you.? or two roomettes 70,000 points for two 3 zone roomettes.

 

[BCL]

In this post: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/55501-clarifications-on-rules-from-agr-insider/?p=446786

...it says that "DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11, are other great examples that would be allowed". If I'm understanding that correctly, it's saying that my itinerary would be allowed, with an overnight in a hotel at my own expense, even though it's not a published route.

That was talking about "sensible route". I'm thinking the sensible route to LAX through CHI uses the Southwest Chief. From Denver it makes sense to connect through Sacramento.

On the other hand, there is the published route using the California Zephyr through Sacramento and then bus-train-bus. I suppose you could call and ask if it's possible before transferring the points. It doesn't sound as if you could force things like going through Emeryville for the overnight though.

 

[ain't no Metroliner]

In this post: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/55501-clarifications-on-rules-from-agr-insider/?p=446786

...it says that "DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11, are other great examples that would be allowed". If I'm understanding that correctly, it's saying that my itinerary would be allowed, with an overnight in a hotel at my own expense, even though it's not a published route.

That was talking about "sensible route". I'm thinking the sensible route to LAX through CHI uses the Southwest Chief. From Denver it makes sense to connect through Sacramento.

On the other hand, there is the published route using the California Zephyr through Sacramento and then bus-train-bus. I suppose you could call and ask if it's possible before transferring the points. It doesn't sound as if you could force things like going through Emeryville for the overnight though.

I hear what you are saying on both points. Many thanks!

 

[ain't no Metroliner]

Since there is no family bedroom on the Cardinal or other Viewliner trains. *LSL, etc. ) you would need to book two roomettes in order to accommodate your four members of the family. That would take more points for that section of your trip. So if you wanted to book as you want, you would need a regular bedroom *if your two kids are not infants I do not believe you could book an overnight in a bedroom for all four of you.? or two roomettes 70,000 points for two 3 zone roomettes.

Hmmm, not what I was hoping to hear. But thanks for the help.

 

[BCL]

I think in the end, the point of the routes is to get passengers from one point to another. That's kind of what you're dealing with. I know Amtrak advertises scenery and going to different places, but it's still considered transportation. I'm pretty sure that someone looking to maximize their points would prefer the Empire Builder through Seattle before taking the Coast Starlight to LA, but that's not an option unless booked separately.

I think for NYP-LAX you probably have too many options that forcing a particular overnight probably won't work, but you could try.

 

[zephyr17]

In this post: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/55501-clarifications-on-rules-from-agr-insider/?p=446786

...it says that "DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11, are other great examples that would be allowed". If I'm understanding that correctly, it's saying that my itinerary would be allowed, with an overnight in a hotel at my own expense, even though it's not a published route.

No, the "published route" rule is firm, if it is not a published route, you can't book it as a single award as until January when the zone system goes away. The "stay at your own expense" statement is to clarify that if you have choose a published route that includes an overnight layover (SEA-LAX-CHI for example), the hotel is on you, not on Amtrak.

After January, you can book whatever routing you have enough points for on the dollar-points conversion and the published route issue is moot. You still have to pay for your own hotel, though.

 

[BCL]

In this post: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/55501-clarifications-on-rules-from-agr-insider/?p=446786

...it says that "DEN-SAC-LAX on trains 5 and 11, are other great examples that would be allowed". If I'm understanding that correctly, it's saying that my itinerary would be allowed, with an overnight in a hotel at my own expense, even though it's not a published route.

No, the "published route" rule is firm, if it is not a published route, you can't book it as a single award as until January when the zone system goes away. The "stay at your own expense" statement is to clarify that if you have choose a published route that includes an overnight layover (SEA-LAX-CHI for example), the hotel is on you, not on Amtrak.

After January, you can book whatever routing you have enough points for on the dollar-points conversion and the published route issue is moot. You still have to pay for your own hotel, though.

Anthony claimed that there's such thing as an "alternate direct route" where a published route can be slightly manually overriden to avoid the crazy bus-train-bus combos.

The only NYP-LAX redemption that includes the California Zephyr is:

Lake Shore Limited (NYP-CHI) - wait 4 hr, 15 min.

California Zephyr (CHI-SAC) - wait 4 hr, 7 min.

3718 Thruway Bus (SAC-SKN)

718 San Joaquin (SKN-BFD)

5818 Thruway Bus (BFD-LAX)

I suppose it might be possible to substitute the Coast Starlight in Sacramento via an "alternate direct route". I'm not sure if all the other more direct options to get to LAX would prevent that from happening. Since it's manually done, they might even be able to fix it at EMY. The terms are in the redemption guidelines:

https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/info/redemptionguidelines

Where sleeping car service is not offered for the entire published route, and where an alternate direct routing exists with sleeping car service on all segments, the alternate routing is allowed. (Example: Denver, CO to Los Angeles, CA on Trains 5 and 11)

There's also a same day exception. I'm thinking it's probably for connections to corridor trains.

Where a published route requires a connection between two segments, a later connecting service may be chosen as long as it departs on the same date as the connection originally offered.

 

[jebr]

Another option might be to split the redemption at Denver. As a border city, a redemption from the east coast to Denver would be a two-zone redemption, and Denver west would be a one-zone. It shouldn't be too many more points (if it is any extra) and then you can invoke the override rule. (Since there is a published route from the east coast to LAX that's all sleepers, another route can't be overriden. However, that can be overriden if it's there's no all-sleeper route, as there is from DEN to LAX.)

 

[BCL]

Another option might be to split the redemption at Denver. As a border city, a redemption from the east coast to Denver would be a two-zone redemption, and Denver west would be a one-zone. It shouldn't be too many more points (if it is any extra) and then you can invoke the override rule. (Since there is a published route from the east coast to LAX that's all sleepers, another route can't be overriden. However, that can be overriden if it's there's no all-sleeper route, as there is from DEN to LAX.)

That's 40,000 and 25,000 points.

However, I'm still trying to decipher what the alternate direct routing means. Obviously there are published routes that are all sleeper, but the phrasing still leaves enough interpretation for the possibility that any published route can be modified to make it all sleeper.

 

[ain't no Metroliner]

Thank you all. Yes, this is very confusing. But with all of your help, it now seems that if they won't allow my original itinerary outright, then I'll just do this:

Redemption #1

NYP to WAS on Regional - business class

WAS to CHI on Cap. Lim. - family bedroom

CHI to DEN on Ca Zeph - family bedroom

Redemption #2

DEN to EMY (hopefully) on CA Zeph - family bedroom

overnight in hotel

EMY to LAX on Coast Starlight - family bedroom

65,000 points total

 

[willem]

Thank you all. Yes, this is very confusing. But with all of your help, it now seems that if they won't allow my original itinerary outright, then I'll just do this:

Redemption #1

NYP to WAS on Regional - business class

WAS to CHI on Cap. Lim. - family bedroom

CHI to DEN on Ca Zeph - family bedroom

Redemption #2

DEN to EMY (hopefully) on CA Zeph - family bedroom

overnight in hotel

EMY to LAX on Coast Starlight - family bedroom

65,000 points total

In your place, I would opt for two roomettes if I had the extra 5,000 points and I could get roomettes opposite each other on all the sleeping cars. This would let you look out the more interesting side of the train and it lets both adults sleep in a lower bunk, both of which would be important to me. Also, it might get you on the the upper level, which I would prefer (but others do not).

If you were still interested in the Lake Shore Limited, this would also allow that leg.

 

[ain't no Metroliner]

Thank you all. Yes, this is very confusing. But with all of your help, it now seems that if they won't allow my original itinerary outright, then I'll just do this:

Redemption #1

NYP to WAS on Regional - business class

WAS to CHI on Cap. Lim. - family bedroom

CHI to DEN on Ca Zeph - family bedroom

Redemption #2

DEN to EMY (hopefully) on CA Zeph - family bedroom

overnight in hotel

EMY to LAX on Coast Starlight - family bedroom

65,000 points total

In your place, I would opt for two roomettes if I had the extra 5,000 points and I could get roomettes opposite each other on all the sleeping cars. This would let you look out the more interesting side of the train ... Also, it might get you on the the upper level, which I would prefer (but others do not).

Doesn't the family bedroom have windows on both sides of the car? If so, how does the roomette improve on the viewing experience?

I've never ridden in a sleeping car so I don't have a preference for upper vs. lower except of course that I assume the view is better from upper. But for that there are lounge cars.

 

[CCC1007]

The improvement is by having upper level windows, so that you are higher than the family bedroom. This allows better aight lines.

 

[willem]

The roomettes also have larger windows than the family bedroom.

 

[the_traveler]

The Family Bedroom does have Windows on both sides, but they are MUCH smaller than those in the roomettes. (Less than 1/2 the size.) The upper level roomettes Windows are only on Viewliners (single level) only, Superliners (bi-level) do not have a second level of Windows in the rooms.

 

[PaulM]

One unforeseen advantage of the new system is that we won't be burdened with any more long threads arguing whether DEN to LAX via CZ and CSL is a one zone redemption or not.

The "sleeper exception" clearly says it is valid. But the one time I tried it, it took escalating the request up at least two levels before it was uncerimoniously approved.