raton pass route

[yarrow]

a little way east of abq on the swc i noticed we weren't seeing any other trains. then that the track was not welded rail. saw the old santa fe stations at lamy, glorieta and raton. old santa fe scenic attraction signs along the route. old harvey house at las vegas, nm. miles and miles of utility poles with glass insulators. i think i also saw a few, not in use, semaphore signals. i asked the conductor and he confirmed that no trains use this route other than the swc (i guess rail runner is looking into it). we went as far as trinidad on this trip in the past. i guess this route hooks back up with the transcon somewhere in kansas. are there any other stretches like this on amtrak routes where it could be 1940 or 1950 instead of 2011?

 

[the_traveler]

That section used to be the main Santa Fe main line, but now the BNSF trans-con runs thru Amarillo, TX. So BNSF technically abandoned that portion, as the only train running on it is the SWC. There was a dispute that it would not be maintained any longer, but an agreement was reached.

 

[jimhudson]

:hi: Im sure there are lots of stretches of track that have been around since back in the day, the one I think first of is the old SP route through Pisano Pass where the Sunset Ltd. climbs to the highest point between New Orleans and LA. My first home was the Section formeans House at Pisano, I was born in Alpine and lived my first two years in Pisano and Ft. hancock, both on this route! Of course the track has been im proved many times but still not many sidings, mostly single track in this part of the route, West of El Paso its mostly double tracked by UP! Maybe someday well have a Daily CHI-LAX train if UP stops their extortion!

 

[Gratt]

That section used to be the main Santa Fe main line, but now the BNSF trans-con runs thru Amarillo, TX. So BNSF technically abandoned that portion, as the only train running on it is the SWC. There was a dispute that it would not be maintained any longer, but an agreement was reached.

Really? I did not hear about that! I had assumed in a few years the SWC would be shifted south though Amarillo. It would be nice to keep the SWC on as much of the historic Super Chief route as possible.

 

[zephyr17]

That section used to be the main Santa Fe main line, but now the BNSF trans-con runs thru Amarillo, TX. So BNSF technically abandoned that portion, as the only train running on it is the SWC. There was a dispute that it would not be maintained any longer, but an agreement was reached.

Technically, it is not abandoned, BNSF has not filed for abandonment on the line ever, but it isn't used by them at all any more, at least between Lamy and Trinidad, and between Trinidad and La Junta. If they actually filed for abandonment and it was successful, nothing at all could run on it, including 3 and 4. Amtrak would almost certainly protest the abandonment petition if they didn't work some kind of agreement with BNSF in advance.

Back in the day of railroad operated passenger trains Santa Fe had the Northern mainline, which is this line, and was primarily used for through passenger service, and the Southern mainline through Amarillo, which was the primary freight line. They were both mainlines. The northern route also saw fast freights, the Super C ran via the northern line. The Chief, the Super Chief and the latter-day versions Grand Canyon ran on this line, the San Francisco Chief ran on the southern line. Before the San Francisco Chief the "southern" section of the Grand Canyon ran via Amarillo.

And the semaphores are operational. BNSF started upgrading the signals, but then decided they didn't want it any more and stopped. The line is a veritable signal musuem, with the semaphores, targets, pole line, cool old cantelievers that BNSF is rapidly replacing elsewere.

 

[osborn]

That section used to be the main Santa Fe main line, but now the BNSF trans-con runs thru Amarillo, TX. So BNSF technically abandoned that portion, as the only train running on it is the SWC. There was a dispute that it would not be maintained any longer, but an agreement was reached.

Technically, it is not abandoned, BNSF has not filed for abandonment on the line ever, but it isn't used by them at all any more, at least between Lamy and Trinidad, and between Trinidad and La Junta. If they actually filed for abandonment and it was successful, nothing at all could run on it, including 3 and 4. Amtrak would almost certainly protest the abandonment petition if they didn't work some kind of agreement with BNSF in advance.

Back in the day of railroad operated passenger trains Santa Fe had the Northern mainline, which is this line, and was primarily used for through passenger service, and the Southern mainline through Amarillo, which was the primary freight line. They were both mainlines. The northern route also saw fast freights, the Super C ran via the northern line. The Chief, the Super Chief and the latter-day versions Grand Canyon ran on this line, the San Francisco Chief ran on the southern line. Before the San Francisco Chief the "southern" section of the Grand Canyon ran via Amarillo.

And the semaphores are operational. BNSF started upgrading the signals, but then decided they didn't want it any more and stopped. The line is a veritable signal musuem, with the semaphores, targets, pole line, cool old cantelievers that BNSF is rapidly replacing elsewere.

I think the state of New Mexico bought the line from Belen,NM to Trinadad,CO!

 

[zephyr17]

That section used to be the main Santa Fe main line, but now the BNSF trans-con runs thru Amarillo, TX. So BNSF technically abandoned that portion, as the only train running on it is the SWC. There was a dispute that it would not be maintained any longer, but an agreement was reached.

Technically, it is not abandoned, BNSF has not filed for abandonment on the line ever, but it isn't used by them at all any more, at least between Lamy and Trinidad, and between Trinidad and La Junta. If they actually filed for abandonment and it was successful, nothing at all could run on it, including 3 and 4. Amtrak would almost certainly protest the abandonment petition if they didn't work some kind of agreement with BNSF in advance.

Back in the day of railroad operated passenger trains Santa Fe had the Northern mainline, which is this line, and was primarily used for through passenger service, and the Southern mainline through Amarillo, which was the primary freight line. They were both mainlines. The northern route also saw fast freights, the Super C ran via the northern line. The Chief, the Super Chief and the latter-day versions Grand Canyon ran on this line, the San Francisco Chief ran on the southern line. Before the San Francisco Chief the "southern" section of the Grand Canyon ran via Amarillo.

And the semaphores are operational. BNSF started upgrading the signals, but then decided they didn't want it any more and stopped. The line is a veritable signal musuem, with the semaphores, targets, pole line, cool old cantelievers that BNSF is rapidly replacing elsewere.

I think the state of New Mexico bought the line from Belen,NM to Trinadad,CO!

They did have a deal, but they were buying in sections, and have not yet closed on the section(s) east of Lamy, so State of New Mexico owns Belen-Lamy, and BNSF still owns the rest. It is becoming more doubtful by the day that they will complete the deal between the economy and the newly elected governor and legislature, who are MUCH less friendly to rail.

 

[anon]

Not long ago the SWC's top speed along this line went down from 90 mph to 79, iirc, or maybe i'm imagining things.

 

[bretton88]

They HAVE to complete the deal. It's contractually required of New Mexico, but BNSF has allowed the last segment to be aquired when finances permit. But it is in writing that New Mexico will have to close the deal. So if BNSF ever forces the issue, the state will have to pay up. The state is getting a bargain price for the line anyways. Some republican states like Ohio will justify purchasing rail lines to preserve freight access, so they may be able to pass it as a freight expense.

 

[zephyr17]

They HAVE to complete the deal. It's contractually required of New Mexico, but BNSF has allowed the last segment to be aquired when finances permit. But it is in writing that New Mexico will have to close the deal. So if BNSF ever forces the issue, the state will have to pay up. The state is getting a bargain price for the line anyways. Some republican states like Ohio will justify purchasing rail lines to preserve freight access, so they may be able to pass it as a freight expense.

All true, but states, as well as corporations and individuals, have been known to default on their obligations. I still think there is real possibility New Mexico won't complete the purchase reaching some sort of settlement with BNSF after refusing, and making some lawyers very happy in the process.

 

[racer1735]

That section used to be the main Santa Fe main line, but now the BNSF trans-con runs thru Amarillo, TX. So BNSF technically abandoned that portion, as the only train running on it is the SWC. There was a dispute that it would not be maintained any longer, but an agreement was reached.

I'm probably the only person on this forum who wishes Amtrak would run the SWC through Amarillo. But, watching the constant string of BNSF freights rounding the curve thru Canyon, I can only imagine the amount of time Amtrak wold be sitting on the siding, waiting for yet another freight to go barreling through!

 

[railiner]

That section used to be the main Santa Fe main line, but now the BNSF trans-con runs thru Amarillo, TX. So BNSF technically abandoned that portion, as the only train running on it is the SWC. There was a dispute that it would not be maintained any longer, but an agreement was reached.

Technically, it is not abandoned, BNSF has not filed for abandonment on the line ever, but it isn't used by them at all any more, at least between Lamy and Trinidad, and between Trinidad and La Junta. If they actually filed for abandonment and it was successful, nothing at all could run on it, including 3 and 4. Amtrak would almost certainly protest the abandonment petition if they didn't work some kind of agreement with BNSF in advance.

Back in the day of railroad operated passenger trains Santa Fe had the Northern mainline, which is this line, and was primarily used for through passenger service, and the Southern mainline through Amarillo, which was the primary freight line. They were both mainlines. The northern route also saw fast freights, the Super C ran via the northern line. The Chief, the Super Chief and the latter-day versions Grand Canyon ran on this line, the San Francisco Chief ran on the southern line. Before the San Francisco Chief the "southern" section of the Grand Canyon ran via Amarillo.

And the semaphores are operational. BNSF started upgrading the signals, but then decided they didn't want it any more and stopped. The line is a veritable signal musuem, with the semaphores, targets, pole line, cool old cantelievers that BNSF is rapidly replacing elsewere.

I got my 'souvenir' from that line. It is an antique Seth Thomas regulator depot clock with Santa Fe standard dial. The certificate that came with it says it was removed from the Pierceville, Ks. depot back in 1962 when replaced by a GE electric clock.

I purchased it from the Santa Fe back in the mid 1970's from their Topeka office of their General Watch Inspector. They reconditioned and sold a few hundred of them, advertised in an add in Trains magazine.

I like to think of its history, witnessing the daily passing of the Chief's and other trains whenever I wind it up.

 

[yarrow]

wow, pretty cool

 

[VentureForth]

The intent on buying all the way up to Trinidad was also a deal that was being worked on with Colorado to eventually provide "commuter" service all the way between Amarillo and Denver. Who would want to spend 6+ hours on a "commuter" train is beyond me. Sounds like a potential sleeper service.

Anyway, I thought it was a completely done deal. I mean, the total cost of the line between Lamy and Trinidad was like 5% of what they paid for everything between Lamy and Belen.

It is such an incredibly scenic route. I would love to see it continue on. It would be such a nice thing to be able to connect Denver to ABQ.

As for the Railrunner, I don't think that will be the mode of expanding service NE of Lamy since they can't connect Santa Fe to Las Vegas. I could see a Split of the Railrunner at Kewa with a split to Lamy and Las Vegas, but since Amtrak serves that route pretty well, I don't see funding being real popular for it.

 

[bretton88]

The real problem is the lack of demand for commuter service from ABQ-Las Vegas. Amtrak actually fills that role nicely right now. The cities that want Railrunner expanded to them are not doing it based on need, but because they feel left out. There really is no market south of Belen and north of Santa Fe.

 

[VentureForth]

Well there is South of Belen - El Paso. But it's too far, the track is bad, and there isn't anything in between except Las Cruces. Even Truth or Consequenses is WAY too far away for convenience.

 

[Gratt]

The intent on buying all the way up to Trinidad was also a deal that was being worked on with Colorado to eventually provide "commuter" service all the way between Amarillo and Denver. Who would want to spend 6+ hours on a "commuter" train is beyond me. Sounds like a potential sleeper service.

Anyway, I thought it was a completely done deal. I mean, the total cost of the line between Lamy and Trinidad was like 5% of what they paid for everything between Lamy and Belen.

It is such an incredibly scenic route. I would love to see it continue on. It would be such a nice thing to be able to connect Denver to ABQ.

As for the Railrunner, I don't think that will be the mode of expanding service NE of Lamy since they can't connect Santa Fe to Las Vegas. I could see a Split of the Railrunner at Kewa with a split to Lamy and Las Vegas, but since Amtrak serves that route pretty well, I don't see funding being real popular for it.

I heard some rubbings about a ABQ - DEN train, and that was one of the reasons why the state of New Mexico acquired that much track. My question is what about the rest of it? Who owns the track between TRI and DEN? What condition is it in? And how much traffic does it have?

As for a Texas- Colorado train (which would almost have to be LD) I would rather have it start in DAL or SAS though DAL so it picks up most of the states population, me thinks it would work far better than a ELP-ABQ-DEN train.

 

[bretton88]

Ok, I can answer your question about the track north of Trinidad. It is known as the Consolidated Main Line (CML) it is a joint BNSF-UP ownership. It is in fantastic shape, CTC and class 5 track. It's a dual track line too. The problem is that it is severly congested with freight. Over 40 trains/day take this line between cheyene and Walsenburg. And passing isn't easy as the dual tracks are sometimes miles apart or across the interstate. The state of Colorado has expressed interest in building a new joint like in the plains that would remove a majority of the traffic off the CML. Until that happens, there is no way a passenger train will be going north of Trinidad. Too much freight traffic. Further complicating things is that Colorado has begun serious true HSR planning for the Pueblo-Ft. Collins corridor. So the state has no interest in traditional passenger rail currently.

 

[George Harris]

I heard some rubbings about a ABQ - DEN train, and that was one of the reasons why the state of New Mexico acquired that much track. My question is what about the rest of it? Who owns the track between TRI and DEN? What condition is it in? And how much traffic does it have?

Trinidad to Pueblo: BNSF

Pueblo to Denver: very complex. Much of it two tracks one owned by UP, one by BNSF, but operated as a joint line (which is alo the common name for it.)

Trinidad to Pueblo is fairly straight and fast, but has a lot of coal trains.

Pueblo to Denver has a lot of trains, and some heavy grades, is quite curvey. It would be fairly slow.

 

[George Harris]

a little way east of abq on the swc i noticed we weren't seeing any other trains. then that the track was not welded rail. saw the old santa fe stations at lamy, glorieta and raton. old santa fe scenic attraction signs along the route. old harvey house at las vegas, nm. miles and miles of utility poles with glass insulators. i think i also saw a few, not in use, semaphore signals. i asked the conductor and he confirmed that no trains use this route other than the swc (i guess rail runner is looking into it). we went as far as trinidad on this trip in the past. i guess this route hooks back up with the transcon somewhere in kansas. are there any other stretches like this on amtrak routes where it could be 1940 or 1950 instead of 2011?

First, a comment: Yarrow, you need to become acquainted with the location and purpose of the "Shift" keys.

What do you mean by "could be 1940 or 1950"? I am assuming that you mean nature of track, communication, and signal systems. It can't be in total, as most of the railroad alignments in thus country go back a century or more.

Even this line is not in total a 1940's - 50's operation. There was no train / train crew radio then. Communication between train crew members out of hearing range of each other was by hand signals or, if from the engine, whistle signals, and there was a train line communication cord in passenger trains so the conductor, etc, could give the equivalent of whistle signals to the engineer. These have all gone.

The age of ties: a wood crosstie will last between 30 and 40 years except in high curve territory. Therefore, there will be no 1940's to 50's ties left in this line.

The age of the rail: Most of the rail could easily go back to the 50's or earlier since the traffic density on this line. The rate of replacement of rail works out to an average life of rail in tracks, all kinds, of about 100 years.

Welded rail was first tried out on the "steam roads" in about 1930, and was installed in increasing quantites by several railroads by many railroad companies after that. If I recall correctly, Southern was the first major company to wholeheartedly adopt welded rain, and that in 1956 or thereabouts. Union Pacific was about the last, in about 1968. ATSF was somewhere in between. The rate of replacement of jointed rail with welded rail is far higher than the replacement of rail in total because a lot of "stick rail" is pulled out of track, identifiable defects and the ends with the bolt holes cout out, the remaining portions welded up into long strings and the rail placed back in track, but probably not in the one it came out of.

Semaphores are being replaced with light signals because semaphore signals are high maintenance items. They can also get literally frozen in cold weather. The origin of the use of semaphores goes back to the days of manually shifted semaphores with kerosene wick flames for lights. This low level of light would be all but invisible in the daytime, hence the blade. The electric track circuit is very old, even back to the time before the incandescent light bulb.

 

[PaulM]

Whenever this subject comes up, I wonder why there isn't any freight traffic between Denver and LA via the old Santa Fe. I'm sure Denver has as strong an appetite for Chinese stuff that rides in containers as anywhere else. Do they go by way of Cheyenne, or perhaps SE through La Junta and Texas?

Also, where does the "Transcon" leave the SWC route on the east end? I thought it is Newton. But I seem to recall only a single track between Emporia and Newton when I was driving between Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe (I'm not kidding).

 

[Eric S]

Also, where does the "Transcon" leave the SWC route on the east end? I thought it is Newton. But I seem to recall only a single track between Emporia and Newton when I was driving between Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe (I'm not kidding).

Well, the BNSF Transcon and the route of Amtrak's Southwest Chief split just west of Kansas City (Transcon heading through Ottawa, SWC through Topeka), rejoin east of Emporia, and split again west of Emporia.

 

[MikeM]

Whenever this subject comes up, I wonder why there isn't any freight traffic between Denver and LA via the old Santa Fe. I'm sure Denver has as strong an appetite for Chinese stuff that rides in containers as anywhere else. Do they go by way of Cheyenne, or perhaps SE through La Junta and Texas?

UP can route freight to LA either via the old Rio Grande mainline, or the mainline across Wyoming, and then send down the LA&SL line (formerly of Desert Wind fame). BNSF has trackage rights over the old SP Central corridor (D&RG / SP) so could run Denver freight that way, then on BNSF tracks down California. From what I've read, the Joint Line from Denver down is pretty much clogged up with coal trains, which would tend to make sending other freight that direction less attractive. Moreover, I think BNSF wants to make the point they don't want / need the old passenger main over Raton, and that they would prefer someone else own and maintain the line. They've been good sports about the situation, but having spent millions upgrading the Transcon, Raton Pass is a nifty but unnecessary line at this point, sad to say.

 

[yarrow]

a little way east of abq on the swc i noticed we weren't seeing any other trains. then that the track was not welded rail. saw the old santa fe stations at lamy, glorieta and raton. old santa fe scenic attraction signs along the route. old harvey house at las vegas, nm. miles and miles of utility poles with glass insulators. i think i also saw a few, not in use, semaphore signals. i asked the conductor and he confirmed that no trains use this route other than the swc (i guess rail runner is looking into it). we went as far as trinidad on this trip in the past. i guess this route hooks back up with the transcon somewhere in kansas. are there any other stretches like this on amtrak routes where it could be 1940 or 1950 instead of 2011?

First, a comment: Yarrow, you need to become acquainted with the location and purpose of the "Shift" keys.

sorry, george. i learned how to type from e.e. cummings

 

[JayPea]

a little way east of abq on the swc i noticed we weren't seeing any other trains. then that the track was not welded rail. saw the old santa fe stations at lamy, glorieta and raton. old santa fe scenic attraction signs along the route. old harvey house at las vegas, nm. miles and miles of utility poles with glass insulators. i think i also saw a few, not in use, semaphore signals. i asked the conductor and he confirmed that no trains use this route other than the swc (i guess rail runner is looking into it). we went as far as trinidad on this trip in the past. i guess this route hooks back up with the transcon somewhere in kansas. are there any other stretches like this on amtrak routes where it could be 1940 or 1950 instead of 2011?

First, a comment: Yarrow, you need to become acquainted with the location and purpose of the "Shift" keys.

sorry, george. i learned how to type from e.e. cummings

:lol: :lol: :lol: