Restoring Desert Wind by reducing frequency of CZ

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Benson

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Considering that Amtrak cannot spend additional operating/capital funding, what do you think about restoring what occurred in the mid-1990s: running the California Zephyr quad-weekly and running the Desert Wind on the days the CZ doesn't run? There would be no additional operating costs, with perhaps a ridership increase from servicing larger markets (Vegas, LA). From UP's perspective, would they allow this without substantial upgrades, considering there would only be a shift of service from one route to another?
 
Reducing a major cross-country route to less than daily service is a bad idea. To do this in order to run a less than daily train that would serve one large city and a bunch of desert is an even worse idea.
 
Yes, normally less-than-daily service is not ideal. However in this situation, the question is: does a quad-weekly CZ/thrice-weekly DW produce more or less ridership than a daily CZ? There seems to be more potential along the DW route, as Las Vegas + LA are larger than Reno + Sac + Bay Area. How do you think UP would receive such a proposal?
 
The tried that in the 1990s and managed to kill the train. Look up the Mercer Cuts. At the suggestion of Mercer Consulting to save money, ALL the western LD routes were reduced to less than daily, people didn't know when to ride and the revenue dropped a lot more than the cost savings. They cut entire routes like the Desert Wind to put the other routes that had been daily before the disastrous experiment back to daily. They couldn't put the entire former system back in place because they had retired the Hi-Level fleet that supplemented the Superliners and didn't have the equipment to restore it.

Tried and failed. One of the biggest mistakes Amtrak ever made, which is really saying something.
 
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And where is the money for the upgrades to the Desert Wind route exactly going to come from? The upgrades that UP will inevitably demand?

We also need to face the unfortunate fact that the Desert Wind was never a superior financial performer when it ran and is unlikely to be now. Specially if it runs only three days a week. And while at it, it will undermine the CZ by having it reduced to four times a week. Al around bad idea.
 
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The Desert Wind route to connect with the CZ train was a winner, from a passenger's point of view. To reduce the daily service of CZ just to add this wonderful route would not be in the best interests of Amtrak, I do not think.

Bottom line: The United States Congress needs to properly fund transportations of all forms, not just the requirements needed for safe airline travels. And that includes Amtrak!
 
If Guest_Benson* wants to pick up a new major city for the CZ, why not extend it to Los Angeles?

That would give the cities along the CZ route a train to LA and the cities in between on the CS route. Also, isn't there a maint. base in Oakland. Move it to LA also.
 
I agree with others here. Making the CZ less than daily is a terrible idea. I do, however, think the Desert Wind should be restored, but not how it was as an LD train from LA - SLC - CHI.

Like Jim Hudson suggested, make the train just L.A. - Vegas (at least at first). Time the schedule especially well for people boarding or alighting in San Bernardino, as that's a large market with people who 1) find it less practical to drive to an airport for a Vegas-bound flight and 2) still don't want to make the drive to Las Vegas.
 
I got to ride the Sunset Limited because by the grace of Allah it just happened to line up with my travel schedule. The odds were not in my favor of that happening. Everyone who's saying a less than daily train is a horrible idea is preaching the truth.
 
Less than daily is always an awful, awful idea. (Speaking of which, the Cardinal and the Sunset Limited need to go daily. ASAP. Particularly the Cardinal, where this would make more revenue than it would cost in operations.)
 
May the Desert Wind and SLC to LAX trains of yore "rest in peace". Until Amtrak can restore service to corridors such as Chicago Nashville Atlanta Florida where population centers could definitely need and use train service, trains such as the Desert Wind that service sparely populated area between end points that already have excellent(for the USA) Amtrak service is simply locals dreaming. Incidentally, the sparsely populated area the Desert Wind would service is heavily anti Amtrak Republican territory.
 
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The CZ runs thru the desert between Salt Lake and Reno

during the night.

Maybe move to the Desert Wind if Las Vegas is the OTHER

city that never sleeps, maybe ok.

But I think the CZ's core ridership likes to go to sleep at night.

Well, I'll think again about the Desert Wind and the Pioneer

AFTER the Cardinal and the Sunset Limited go daily, AND

after the Heartland Flyer goes Chicago-Kansas City-Wichita-

Oklahoma City-Ft Worth-Austin-San Antonio.

But I've got those priorities

way ahead adding service in the desert mountains.
 
It could perhaps be justified to cut the Zephyr back a little to create a Desert Wind. The key is to keep everything daily. A single sleeper+transition sleeper and two coaches might be enough for the Zephyr most of the time.
i.e. Change the current EMY-CHI consist of Engine-Engine-Baggage-Dorm-Coach-Coach-Coach-Lounge-Diner-Sleeper-Sleeper to be Engine-Engine-Baggage-Dorm-Sleeper-Diner-Coach-Coach
The Desert Wind would be (SLC-LAX) Engine-DinerLounge-CoachBaggage- (CHI-LAX) Coach-Sleeper All you need is 2-4 Diner lounges, 6 more coaches and 6 engines.
 
I am not disagreeing with you as to the hurdles such faces- Just putting out a rational method of how to provide the service from an equipment perspective.
 
You probably have a better chance of this happening via Amtrak California where the State pays for say 2-3 daily runs between LAUS -> LAS. Since California sees the State supported trains as a tool of relieving traffic on the roads and NOT a profit generating business, you have a higher chance of seeing California invest in a train to relive pressure off of I15 than anything else.
 
seat38a said:
You probably have a better chance of this happening via Amtrak California where the State pays for say 2-3 daily runs between LAUS -> LAS.

Since California sees the State supported trains as a tool of relieving traffic on the roads and NOT a profit generating business, you have a higher chance of seeing California invest in a train to relive pressure off of I-15 than anything else.
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This.
 
This is another one where if it comes to pass that California State would pay for running a train to Las Vegas, I will fall off my chair with astonishment. But I suppose it could happen. There is very little incentive for California to spend money on that when it has an entire HSR system to fund, the funding for which is far from assured.
 
jis said:
This is another one where if it comes to pass that California State would pay for running a train to Las Vegas, I will fall off my chair with astonishment. But I suppose it could happen. There is very little incentive for California to spend money on that when it has an entire HSR system to fund, the funding for which is far from assured.
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I'm sure some ballot initative say proposition 2000000 - Train to Vegas will find tax money to pay for it. Prop 108 and 116 is what paid for the all the State owned equipment and what funded the start of Capital Corridor. Don't put it past this State to tax ourselves for rail projects. LA County residents passed Measure R to tax themselves for subway and light rail.
 
I still contend that no matter how bizarre Californians are, they will not pass any initiative to fund a train that will mostly run in Nevada. They will be happy to fund something from LAX to Victorville. but I'd be surprised if they want to spend their tax money to enable high rollers to go to Nevada to spend their money and prop up Nevada's economy. :)
 
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Prop 1A barely passed for CAHSR, a state wide initiative for Las Vegas won't go anywhere.
 
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