I had occasion to be near a freight line track yesterday (not trespassing) and saw this tie and spike. Is this common? A safety problem? Should I report it to the Railroad?
Safety Problem
- Thread starter MrFSS
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I've seen many a spike like that, and considering the condition of that tie, it's unlikely that the spike will cause any problem.
Now the tie definately needs replacing at some point, but as long as the ties surrounding it are still in good shape, that tie is unlikely to cause any problems.
Now the tie definately needs replacing at some point, but as long as the ties surrounding it are still in good shape, that tie is unlikely to cause any problems.
George Harris
Engineer
No, this is not a safety problem.
Spikes DO NOT hold down the rail. Gravity does that. The tie plate keeps the rail from shifting sideways and the spike keeps the tie plate from shifting sideways. If no tie plate, the spike itself keeps the rail from shifting sideways. One spike missing is no issue at all. In fact, one tie completely missing is not dangerous, either.
Go here to find the track safety standards.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...1.8&idno=49
A companion to the regulation is the Track Safety Standard Compliance Manual which is a commentary on the regulations and discussion of how they are to be applied. It runs to 155 pages and can be found at www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/tss_compliance_manual_chapter_5_final_040107.pdf
To give some idea of what this means, given that the normal wood crosstie spacing is 19 to 21 inches, a 39 foot section contains 22 to 25 ties. (Why 39 feet? Form many years that was the standard length of rail produced in or for the US. Therefore, it was dead easy to figure out things by 39 foot segments by noting the locations of joint bars or welds.)
If you read the above, you will see that you can SAFELY run 80 mph passenger trains on track with near 50% ties that are defective by FRA definition. Remember, these are safety standards, not comfort standards. A track can be quite safe and ride so rough it would be hard to stand up and walk. Notice that there is nothing about spacing or grouping of defective ties in the regulation. The compliance manual states:
One of the things that give the public and railfans a bad name with the railroad employees and management is someone running around saying "the sky is falling" when they see something like this that in reality is not a safety issue at all.
Spikes DO NOT hold down the rail. Gravity does that. The tie plate keeps the rail from shifting sideways and the spike keeps the tie plate from shifting sideways. If no tie plate, the spike itself keeps the rail from shifting sideways. One spike missing is no issue at all. In fact, one tie completely missing is not dangerous, either.
Go here to find the track safety standards.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...1.8&idno=49
Determination of these conditions is to be make by a qualified person.
A companion to the regulation is the Track Safety Standard Compliance Manual which is a commentary on the regulations and discussion of how they are to be applied. It runs to 155 pages and can be found at www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/tss_compliance_manual_chapter_5_final_040107.pdf
To give some idea of what this means, given that the normal wood crosstie spacing is 19 to 21 inches, a 39 foot section contains 22 to 25 ties. (Why 39 feet? Form many years that was the standard length of rail produced in or for the US. Therefore, it was dead easy to figure out things by 39 foot segments by noting the locations of joint bars or welds.)
If you read the above, you will see that you can SAFELY run 80 mph passenger trains on track with near 50% ties that are defective by FRA definition. Remember, these are safety standards, not comfort standards. A track can be quite safe and ride so rough it would be hard to stand up and walk. Notice that there is nothing about spacing or grouping of defective ties in the regulation. The compliance manual states:
Again, a determination made by a person qualified, quite frequently not alone. I am not about to try to second guess a track maintenance person who has been at it for years.
One of the things that give the public and railfans a bad name with the railroad employees and management is someone running around saying "the sky is falling" when they see something like this that in reality is not a safety issue at all.
Thanks - I feel much better about it all, now.
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
thats nothing you want to see a bad rail
That one is pretty bad!
George Harris
Engineer
Huh? We have a lot of vertical play at a joint having one bolt missing. Train is moving fairly slow. Probably acceptable. Remember these are SAFETY standards, not "look pretty" standards.
If you consider that ok, then it makes you wonder what you consider not ok.
Maybe you need to get those non WW1 bond paying French over and sort out all your fairly lame track!
Rail Freak
Engineer
I had occasion to be near a freight line track yesterday (not trespassing) and saw this tie and spike. Is this common? A safety problem? Should I report it to the Railroad?
I saw guite a few of these in Folkston,Ga. I wondered the same thing. When I asked @ the "Funnel", they said it was typical,normal,etc. but!!!!
Rail Freak
Engineer
George Harris
Engineer
It is not a question of what I say is OK, it is a question of what the the people who's business it is to regulate track safety says is OK. That is, the Federal Railroad Administration. Go back to my first post on this subject and check the links. Here it is again:
FRA track safety standards.
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-...1.8&idno=49
For the case in question, one missing bolt in a joint bar in jointed rail is not an FRA defect in classes 1 though 5.
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All those regulations and I have yet to encounter a smooth riding railway like is found in Europe even on lightly used branch lines.
On my recent 2 week trip to the US there were several really bad jolts and lurches which would result in a speed restriction straight away.
As for that video, granted there is only one bolt missing, but the others are loose and I thought the rail was supposed to be attached to the ties? Or is that not in the regulations?
The one thing that strikes me on my visits to the US is the poor quality of much of the infrastructure, pot holed roads, rusty and poor quality bridgework, a railroad that is falling to pieces and an airport system that is creaking at the seams.
So rich yet in such poor repair...
George Harris
Engineer
OK . . . :angry: I have counted to 10, gone away a while, and waited. Still feel the same way: If you don't like it here, don't come. Not interested in telling you how to run your country, and even less interested in hearing you tell us what is wrong with ours.
I do like visiting the US even if it is falling to pieces. Even your new President reckons your country is falling to bits, so I must be onto something. Maybe those "everything American is wonderful' blinkers you wear need taking off from time to time.
You can have as many regulations and rules as you like, but that don't mean the end product is any good...
amtrakwolverine
Engineer
its going slow due to bad track. imagine what would happened if the train was at full speed or a 79MPH amtrak train. that section was not even held down to the wooden ties how long before the bolts fell out and the tracks seperate enough to derail a train.
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I fail to see any huge difference between the New York City Subway System and the London Underground, or JFK, ORD, DEN or LAX airports and LHR or LGW (and I frequent all of the above). The UK is not falling apart, and neither is the US. And don't confuse campaign rhetoric with factual information. Both sides move to the extremes for the election, say things that are only slightly based on truth, and then magically come back to the middle when it comes to running things.
Hope you enjoy your next visit to our sad, "falling to pieces" country. I know I always enjoy visiting yours (Oyster Card in-hand), particularly now that the Pound Sterling is coming down to earth. Good for me in the UK, not so good for you in the USA. Sorry, mate.
Ok, before this topic gets too far out of hand let me just remind everyone to please keep things in perspective and to be polite.
Let me also mention that when it comes to RR infrastructure, George does know what he's talking about. George earns his living building RR's and has done so both on US RR's and foreign RR's. In fact he just returned to the states a year or so ago from his last gig overseas.
Let me also mention that when it comes to RR infrastructure, George does know what he's talking about. George earns his living building RR's and has done so both on US RR's and foreign RR's. In fact he just returned to the states a year or so ago from his last gig overseas.
And that was the point that George was trying to make. Because the track is in that condition, it's probably rated a Class I track. Therefore no train, including Amtrak, would be allowed to go fast. So while it may not look pretty, it still meets Class I standards and therefore as long as the engineer follows Class I speed standards, it is safe.
If that RR ever wants to increase train speeds, then they will certainly have to fix things up at least some. But for all we know this is some obscure branch that leads to one customer, who gets one delivery a week, and therefore it doesn't pay to make repairs to the track as long as it still meets Class I standards.
Now yes, Kiss Alive, you're correct in that were an Amtrak train to run over that at 79 MPH we would probably have one heck of a wreck. And the engineer would now be out of a job for failing to obey the speed limit.
George Harris
Engineer
To add to Alan's point: When I was working overseas, I used to tell the new arriviing foreignors much the same thing I just said to you, but in reference to the country we happened to be in. For some very spcifically that, "If the urge comes over you to tell the people here how to run their country, put your lips in firm contact with each other until the urge passes." Generally people know quite well what needs doing in their own country and what and is being done and you have no idea of their daily realities or what is being done why and where. You are there as an invited (or maybe even uninvited) guest. Act like one.
As PRR 60 says, there is a difference between reality and political rhetoric. As to his comments on LUL and other things there, I have worked with a few ex-British Rail and London Underground people over the years. It is probably best you do not know some of the realities there.
Only done 28 years on BR and the railway after privatization, so fully aware of what does or doesn't go on, thanks.
Aloha
I want to add to this. How many time when you see something like these potential problems do you report them, or do you like the poster on you tube hide the location. I think I first saw that video of the loose joint 2 years ago. How often can an inspector walk the entire rail network? Even if divided by the number of inspectors.
I want to add to this. How many time when you see something like these potential problems do you report them, or do you like the poster on you tube hide the location. I think I first saw that video of the loose joint 2 years ago. How often can an inspector walk the entire rail network? Even if divided by the number of inspectors.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
George, may I fairly point out, that you constantly criticize the construction of foreign rail cars in a very similar vein?
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amtrakwolverine
Engineer
heres another video of the bad rail
2 years sense this video i hope CSX fixed it by now but knowing CSX i bet not
2 years sense this video i hope CSX fixed it by now but knowing CSX i bet not
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Have there been any derailments there?
If not... then the answer is no- CSX has not fixed it.
If you look at that again you see it as a repair with the rail about 1/2 car length. How long ago were those taken? And remember the quote "whatever happens ... stays on You Tube"
Aloha
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