Sheldon Silver and Moynihan Station

[battalion51]

There's really only one service that would make sense to go through to GCT, and that would be Empire Service, since it's going up state anyway. The other challenge is that there is no catenary in GCT or the lines extending northward, only third rail.

As far as third rail is concerned in the Hudson Tunnels, IIRC wasn't there a plan to install third rail in the tunnels to allow more options to NJT and to alleviate rescues should the catenary be de-energized?

 

[AlanB]

There's really only one service that would make sense to go through to GCT, and that would be Empire Service, since it's going up state anyway.

Except that would screw up transfers from the NEC and the Long Distance services that run into Penn.

The other challenge is that there is no catenary in GCT or the lines extending northward, only third rail.

Works the other way too, while there is third rail in NYP, its over-running third rail. Metro North uses under-running third rail. However those problems would not be insurmountable or horribly expensive, unless NJT was to continue north of GCT and MN went west of Penn.

As far as third rail is concerned in the Hudson Tunnels, IIRC wasn't there a plan to install third rail in the tunnels to allow more options to NJT and to alleviate rescues should the catenary be de-energized?

I believe that there now is live third rail in the two existing tunnels, however Amtrak now keeps a P32 AC-DM in E-yard. So that they can run either on third rail or diesel as needed.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Amtrak to GCT is not gone happen, they were mandated at Amtraks creation by congress to consolidate the New York operations, it took till 1991 to do so.

Yes the new tunnels and station would have catenary for simple reason all NJT trains would require catenary.

Will it have third rail , probably not.

 

[battalion51]

There's really only one service that would make sense to go through to GCT, and that would be Empire Service, since it's going up state anyway.

Except that would screw up transfers from the NEC and the Long Distance services that run into Penn.

I was suggesting that you could bring Empire Service in through GCT and down to Penn. The only challenge with this is I believe the trainsets would be facing south, making it hard to turn the trains around to head back north, as I don't believe the Empire Connection has a wye built into it.

 

[AlanB]

There's really only one service that would make sense to go through to GCT, and that would be Empire Service, since it's going up state anyway.

Except that would screw up transfers from the NEC and the Long Distance services that run into Penn.

I was suggesting that you could bring Empire Service in through GCT and down to Penn. The only challenge with this is I believe the trainsets would be facing south, making it hard to turn the trains around to head back north, as I don't believe the Empire Connection has a wye built into it.

Nope, to my knowledge there is no wye on the EC. One might be able to be built, since the High Line used to run west and then south around the LIRR's West Side yard.

Of course one could do the opposite of what you're suggesting. Bring Empire trains into NYP first, then run them up to GCT via any newly built connector. Then one could use one of the two loop tracks at GCT to turn the train by backing into the loop.

Of course that would still require solving the problem of Amtrak's P32 AC-DM's over-running shoes vs. Metro North's under-running third rail. Either that or you'd have to smoke things up a bit at GCT.

 

[battalion51]

I'm sure the Conductors, Engineers, and Unions would go screaming into the night if they tried this, but if they were able to figure out a way to get the DM's to be able to accept both configurations they could potentially just run the whole round trip as just a loop. Say for example run south from Albany, come into Penn on the EC, make a station stop at Penn, run to and stop at GCT, and continue north back to Albany. They would likely still do a crew change (at least for the Engineers) at NYP because otherwise they'd have to have a Fireman on the trains since that run would be greater than six hours.

 

[Nngo11]

[i was suggesting that you could bring Empire Service in through GCT and down to Penn. .

Apparently, I'm missing something here (or perhaps this is a purely hypothetical question, which is fine) but what would the point of this be? Other than making life easier for passengers connecting from MN's Harlemn Line and from some intermediate stations on the New Haven Line, I fail to see why Empire Corridor service should stop twice in New York, in Penn and in Grand Central. But then again, it's late...

 

[battalion51]

The advantage is that it allows easier connections to inbound passengers. Since GCT is set up to easily serve passengers transferring to destinations on the east side, and Penn the west it makes life easier, and could help lure in new passengers since they have easier access. It's the same reason why Amtrak stops at both Back Bay and South Station, although the two are with in a mile of each other it's nearly impossible to get from one to the other in a short period of time via mass trasnit. I'm sure if Amtrak had its druthers they'd be able to push through to North Station as well.

 

[National Limited]

So then is The Tunnel going to happen or is it just a plan/dream? What about the East river tunnels taking LIRR into GCT? Is this still a plan/dream or is it under construction?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

So then is The Tunnel going to happen or is it just a plan/dream? What about the East river tunnels taking LIRR into GCT? Is this still a plan/dream or is it under construction?

The LIRR East Side Acces is still happening, it will be finished in 2010 or so.

currently the fastest way from GCT to Penn by rail is a nearly 24 mile trip.

from GCT to Cp12 and from CP12 back to Penn station.

The only other way is from GCT to New Rochelle and back over hellgate line.

there is no other rail connections and non are planned.

Yes there is a Wye on Empire connection just outside the Empire tunnel.

bad news is its only big enough for one engine.

 

[Nngo11]

So then is The Tunnel going to happen or is it just a plan/dream? What about the East river tunnels taking LIRR into GCT? Is this still a plan/dream or is it under construction?

THE Tunnel is currently in preliminary engineering phases (which will take a bit over another year). It seems to have the support of the all the major agencies from which it would require funding (State of New Jersey, Port Authority, the Feds). I'm not sure if the State or City of New York are commiting any funds to it, other than the funds that they contribute to the Port Authority.

 

[lepearso]

Has anyone ever mentioned the possibility that Amtrak could sell Penn Station to NJT and move into the Farley building? By doing so they could still be rent free and let NJT have the extra space they require. Or, has anyone ever mentioned the possibility of rebuilding Penn Station on a smaller scale when and if MSG relocates?

 

[Bill631]

I saw several stories about this whole thring in the past week or so,

and it was also mentioned on the radio here in NY.

Apparently Silver has killed the Moynihan project, and it is definitely not going to happen.

At the same time Silver(and whoever else is involved in deciding) has OK'd the final approval for the Second ave. sunway line, as well as the expansion of Grand Central Station to make way for the LIRR to stop there. Obviously Silver thinks this project is more important, and I tend to agree with him.

Bill

 

[AlanB]

Apparently Silver has killed the Moynihan project, and it is definitely not going to happen.At the same time Silver(and whoever else is involved in deciding) has OK'd the final approval for the Second ave. sunway line, as well as the expansion of Grand Central Station to make way for the LIRR to stop there. Obviously Silver thinks this project is more important, and I tend to agree with him.

Bill,

I won't disagree that East Side Access (LIRR to GCT), as well as the Second Ave subway are far more important than Moynihan. They'll serve far more people and make far more sense than Moynihan. As I've said earlier in this topic, Moynihan only made some sense when Amtrak was going to move there and even then it was still debatable. But it makes no sense for either NJT or the LIRR IMHO.

However, shooting down Moynihan will not help those projects move forward. The funding for Moynihan is largely secured already and would not take away from funding Second Ave or ESA. Additionally, much of the funding that is in place for Moynihan cannot be used to help Second Ave or ESA. In fact one of the reasons for the big push this year to get Moynihan started is the fact that one of the Federal grants will revert back to the Fed soon if construction doesn't start soon. One of the other big reasons for the push is so that Governor Pataki can have something to point at when he makes his bid for President.

But the bottom line is that Silver's torpedoing Moynihan will have neither a positive nor a negative effect on Second Ave or ESA. He hasn't helped to advance those projects with his actions. He may have saved some tax payer monies, but where those monies will go next is not up to him or anyone in this state, if they aren't used for Moynihan then they go back to the Fed. And the private monies that have been raised for Moynihan can never be used for Second Ave or ESA.

 

[PRR 60]

...I'm not sure if the State or City of New York are commiting any funds to it, other than the funds that they contribute to the Port Authority.

For the record, the states of New York and New Jersey do not contribute tax funds to the operation of the Port Authority. The PANYNJ is self funded through tolls, fares, and airport revenue.

 

[battalion51]

Yes there is a Wye on Empire connection just outside the Empire tunnel. bad news is its only big enough for one engine.

Well for the purposes I was speaking to that could work, just whack the power, wye and run around the train. That still wouldn't solve the larger issue of over running vs. underrunning on MN.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Amtrak engines do not use MNCR third rail, they travel from no third rail territory untill they are on Empire Corridor with the shoes restracted in UP position.

And they have not made a dual type Third rail shoe yet.

 

[battalion51]

Well they could make a dual type of shoe, which could be kind of expensive. Or if trains were to run to both stations, they could just make it so that there are one or two tracks with the type of rail needed for whatever the train runs in on. For example. Let's say they take the Empire Corridor in, go into Penn, then run back up to GCT, they could set up one or two tracks at GCT with overrunning third rail. Or vice versa if you decide to bring them in on MN.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Its is near imposible to make a third rail shoe that can work on over and under running third rail.

If you viewed a diagram of both you would understand.

There is a very good reason nobody has tried to invent one.

And how would you like to resolve the 4 mile long Park avenue tunnel and Viaduct ?? how would you go to those two tracks in GCT ???

and where would you find the time to do a 24 mile run from Penn station to GCT ?????

If anyone wishes to go to GCT they can transfer to MNCR in Yonkers or in New Rochelle.

For info on NYC rail connections view this:

http://www.richegreen.com/TriStateTrackMapV2.pdf

beware its a large file near 6 mb

 

[AlanB]

and where would you find the time to do a 24 mile run from Penn station to GCT ?????If anyone wishes to go to GCT they can transfer to MNCR in Yonkers or in New Rochelle.

Well since the idea behind this hypothetical disussion was the building of a direct link between NYP and GCT in Manhattan which Amtrak's Empire Service could use, one wouldn't need to replace or modify 24 miles of third rail. One would only need to modify the 4 miles of tunnel under Park, after which the P32 AC-DM would just start up the diesel engine. Granted that 4 miles is still a big problem, as is that theoretical tunnel between NYP & GCP, but one wouldn't need to worry about 24 miles of third rail.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Allan despite dreams of railfans, there will not be a tunnel from NYP to GCT.

mainly because all the incopmatibilities, third rail, catenary etc.

NJT and Amtrak will never go to GCT as part of regular service.

Amtrak may once in while when trouble hits on Empire connection.

MNCR will never give up loop tracks to bring another tunnel in on south side.

The loop is neccesary for GCT to acces the yard tracks on east side.

 

[Alex]

Allan despite dreams of railfans, there will not be a tunnel from NYP to GCT.mainly because all the incopmatibilities, third rail, catenary etc.

NJT and Amtrak will never go to GCT as part of regular service.

Amtrak may once in while when trouble hits on Empire connection.

MNCR will never give up loop tracks to bring another tunnel in on south side.

The loop is neccesary for GCT to acces the yard tracks on east side.

What's a loop track?

 

[battalion51]

I believe GCT has a track that allows trains to turn around and loop back to a yard. Not 100% on that, Dutchrailnut can explain best.

 

[AlanB]

Allan despite dreams of railfans, there will not be a tunnel from NYP to GCT.

mainly because all the incopmatibilities, third rail, catenary etc.

NJT and Amtrak will never go to GCT as part of regular service.

Amtrak may once in while when trouble hits on Empire connection.

MNCR will never give up loop tracks to bring another tunnel in on south side.

The loop is neccesary for GCT to acces the yard tracks on east side.

What's a loop track?

It's a track that basically loops or turns around 180 degrees, in this case allowing a southbound train to turn around and run north, without the need to change ends.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

I believe GCT has a track that allows trains to turn around and loop back to a yard. Not 100% on that, Dutchrailnut can explain best.

Correct on both upper and lower level there is a track that connects the outer most tracks.

Due to ESA , the lower tracks will lose the lower loop track, It would be impossible to bring a connecting tunnel in at lower level however as the subway tunnels are in the way.

for view of GCT zoom in on the link I posted earlier it has track diagram of GCT.