Silliest OBS Made 'Rules'

[Devil's Advocate]

The biggest difference (well, booking-wise) between an airplane and a train is that virtually all planes go non-stop from A to B and then discharge everyone. The train goes from A to B to C to D to E...and so on, adding and dropping off passengers all along the way. Moreover, those passengers can be spread out over 8-10 cars on longer trains (holiday Regionals jump to mind), and being unable to break folks up in some fashion (be it, "Virginia folks to the back of the train, DC and beyond to the front" or otherwise) isn't going to make their job easier.

First of all, drop the talk about holiday regionals. Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY is suggesting that regional trains need assigned seating. Second, I have a flight later this year that goes A to B to C to D as IAH-DME-HKG-SIN. All in the same seat on the same aircraft, with some people getting on or off at each stop and others riding the whole route. Just like thousands of other flights with assigned seating have done for decades all over the world. Third, other passenger rail systems already provide assigned coach seating at booking without experiencing the "utter chaos" you envision, so why should Amtrak be uniquely incapable of performing this rather basic task?

Basically, if there's an irregular "bump" in demand (say that for some reason you have 20 "extra" people going to RMT), I think it makes more sense to let the OBS figure out how to handle moving that around as far as seating goes than to have a computer potentially put folks in the "wrong" car (say that overflow eventually goes to wherever there's space...if you do that, sooner or later a number of folks seated in the "wrong" coach for a destination is going to get overlooked by a combination of a bad speaker and staff not thinking of them being there).

You seem to be trying to "solve" the problem of faulty speakers and lazy staff by focusing entirely on the symptom instead of the root cause. There are lazy employees and faulty speakers on trains and planes all over the world, and yet it doesn't result in the wholesale abandonment of assigned seating. Is it true that there may need to be some additional planning in how seats are assigned and/or how disembarkation is handled? Absolutely. Is it true that these problems are insurmountable? Absolutely not.

Part of this is me not trusting computers...but part of it is an honest gut feeling that the OBS has a better handle on it than a booking office computer is likely to.

I don't know where your fear of computers comes from, but it would seem to be demonstrably erroneous. Computers have already been assigning seats and compartments across multiple cabins and cars all over the world for decades now. On board staff have been overriding those assignments when necessary for just as long. If the computer was the real issue then where are all the mini-disasters that should be happening over and over again every time there is a change in demand? It just doesn't add up.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Possibly, but only marginally so on a longer train. I hate to say it, but (especially if the speakers are out or the stop happens later at night) trying to round up folks for some of the earlier stops on the SB Meteor is likely a daunting task for the OBS if they're scattered throughout five coaches.

First of all, why do passengers have to be "rounded up" in kindergarten walk at boarding and again at disembarking? Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

The biggest difference (well, booking-wise) between an airplane and a train is that virtually all planes go non-stop from A to B and then discharge everyone. The train goes from A to B to C to D to E...and so on, adding and dropping off passengers all along the way.

So you mean to say that train in other countries that have assigned seating only carry passengers from A to B? If you want to see how reserved seating works on trains, I suggest visiting the world's largest passenger train network- in India. Over 3000 (yes three thousand) trains with reserved seats and sleeping bunks, each train taking and dropping passengers at dozens, sometimes more than 50 stations along the route, four to six different classes of cars on the train, and yet things work smoothly without any of the "utter chaos" that some members here envision engulfing Amtrak trains if there is assigned seating. If a "third-world" country can make it work, can't "developed" America make it work on a system that's several orders of magnitude less complicated?

Moreover, those passengers can be spread out over 8-10 cars on longer trains (holiday Regionals jump to mind), and being unable to break folks up in some fashion (be it, "Virginia folks to the back of the train, DC and beyond to the front" or otherwise) isn't going to make their job easier.

Again I say, look beyond Amtrak to more complicated rail systems. In India the express trains tend to be 24 cars long, and sometimes there is automatic "break-up" of passengers done by the reservation system while assigning seats, but most of the times, it doesn't even matter. When the train stops at the station, all the cars have a platform to alight to, why the need to be obsessed about bunching passengers together?

More than anything else, I feel the reluctance is attributed more to the American custom of "We'll do it differently than the whole world, just because". Miles, gallons, Fahrenheit, no seat numbers in trains.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

First of all, why do passengers have to be "rounded up" in kindergarten walk at boarding and again at disembarking? Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

Is it too difficult for you to understand that not everyone can hear/understand the announcements? Due to sleeping, being hard of hearing/deaf, poor acoustics, poor sound system, no sound system in a particular car, etc.

 

[Ryan]

Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

No, we're not that dumb.

When the train stops at the station, all the cars have a platform to alight to, why the need to be obsessed about bunching passengers together?

That's awesome. Too bad that isn't the case here in the US. Better to just call us dumb than understand the reality of the situation.
Edit to add: Not to mention, even when the platforms are long enough, Superliners don't have trainlined doors, so you would need a crewmember to open each door. Single level equipment still needs someone to operate the traps at low level platforms as well.

 

[Texan Eagle]

When the train stops at the station, all the cars have a platform to alight to, why the need to be obsessed about bunching passengers together?

That's awesome. Too bad that isn't the case here in the US. Better to just call us dumb than understand the reality of the situation.

It's not like I do not understand the reality of the situation here in the US. How many stations on LD routes have the issue of having platforms that cannot accommodate entire train? From whatever I have traveled, I have seen all decently sized stations, even many of the small AmShacks have low-level platform (basically just a tiled surface raised a few inches above ground level) running across the length of the train. At stations where even this is not existing, do the passengers get off on the ground from only one or two cars? I haven't used any such station so no idea what is done, but what can be done with assigned seating is assigning seats (at booking) for passengers using such barebone stations in particular cars, say first car or last car whatever depending on what is the current "rule" about opening doors, and voila! problem solved. I know the reservation software in India does this, called "wayside quota". Although it is not because some doors don't open (they all open whenever you want to!), but just to simplify the task of assigning seats to folks getting off midway and getting on from midway stations. For example, when my grandma who lives in a small town outside Mumbai travels to and from the city in a particular train (train #12954), she always gets her seat assigned by the software in coach B-4. She does not have to do this manually, all she has to do is punch in her destination and the software assigns seat in that coach. It is a very complicated story as to what happens when all seats in a "quota" are filled up, but the point I was making is that is is do-able.

 

[Texan Eagle]

First of all, why do passengers have to be "rounded up" in kindergarten walk at boarding and again at disembarking? Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

Is it too difficult for you to understand that not everyone can hear/understand the announcements? Due to sleeping, being hard of hearing/deaf, poor acoustics, poor sound system, no sound system in a particular car, etc.

Yes, it is indeed difficult for me to understand that only in the United States there are passengers who cannot hear/understand announcements because they would be sleeping, being hard of hearing/deaf, and cars with poor acoustics, poor sound system, or no sound system.

 

[Ryan]

At stations where even this is not existing, do the passengers get off on the ground from only one or two cars?

Even at stations where this does exist, passengers board/exit through a small handful of doors due to the lack of trainlined door controls and automatic traps.

I get that the computers can do it just as well as humans (95% of the time when things are operating "normally" and everything works). But humans have the unique ability to adapt to changing conditions, and passengers are a heck of a lot more flexible when they're not being diverted from a preassigned seat.

Yes, there is a big cultural difference.

(Warning, offtopic anecdote ahead)

There is a big difference between warships built for the US Navy and those built for other countries. Other countries have many automated systems (particularly in the area of Damage Control - firefighting, compartment isolation, etc). This works for us (because until recently), we had the notion that people were cheap and dependable, and those automated systems were expensive and quit working at the most inopportune of times (like when you needed them most). We've sort of figured out that the pay and benefits for these people costs a whole lot of money, and so efforts are underway to reduce crew sizes and depend more on the automated systems.

 

[Ispolkom]

Me, I'd like assigned seats on long-distance trains. No doubt about it.

But Texan Eagle must have a much better experience in traveling coach than I, because assigned seats is somewhere about 20th on my list of things I'd like changed about the Amtrak long-distance coach experience. Compared to such issues as 1) poor temperature control, 2) filthy toilets, 3) inedible cafe food, 4) absurdly late trains, 5) passengers using electronic devices without headphones, etc., etc., getting a seat assigned by the coach attendant doesn't seem so bad. Once Amtrak fixes those other items, though, I fully agree that it should tackle assigned seating as part of ticketing.

 

[user 1215]

Now Now, Texas Eagle... In all fairness, on IR, you're not really assigned a berth or seat until the night before, are you?

 

[Texan Eagle]

(Warning, offtopic anecdote ahead)

There is a big difference between warships built for the US Navy and those built for other countries. Other countries have many automated systems (particularly in the area of Damage Control - firefighting, compartment isolation, etc). This works for us (because until recently), we had the notion that people were cheap and dependable, and those automated systems were expensive and quit working at the most inopportune of times (like when you needed them most). We've sort of figured out that the pay and benefits for these people costs a whole lot of money, and so efforts are underway to reduce crew sizes and depend more on the automated systems.

This off-topic anecdote is very relevant. In fact it is in line with my suggestion about assigned seating. I am made to understand that as things stand today, human labour is very expensive in the US, for example when I got a dent in my care repaired last month, the highest cost in my bill was labour, charged at something like $47 per hour

so in such a situation, it makes me wonder why does Amtrak continue with its current style which is very human-resource intensive? If a bunch of things that are handled by human beings (kindergarten walk, seat assignment) is computerized thereby requiring less staff, for example one coach attendant opening/closing doors of three coaches instead of one for each coach, would it not help improving Amtrak's financial bottom lines? Now some may say that this would lead to layoffs and unemployment, but then you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want to see Amtrak function as an employment source, you gotta give it the requisite funding. If you are gonna point out how Amtrak runs in losses, you shouldn't complain when it resorts to cost-saving tactics. (** "you" = the government)

 

[Texan Eagle]

Now Now, Texas Eagle... In all fairness, on IR, you're not really assigned a berth or seat until the night before, are you?

Umm. says who? In all reserved classes except AC First Class, when you book your ticket (allowed up to 90 days before travel date), it comes with an assigned coach and seat number. See this sample ticket from my recent travel. The assigned coach and seat number is highlighted in red-

In AC First Class the seats are not assigned at booking because it is enclosed accommodation, similar to Amtrak's bedrooms, but sold as individual bunks. So once all the seats in the coach are booked, a human being intervenes to go through the profile (ticket number, age, gender) of booked passengers and room allocation is done keeping cultural sensibilities in mind, so for example, if there is a male and female passenger booked on same ticket number, they are assigned a two-passenger cabin. If there are two adults and two children seen on same ticket number, it is likely it is a family so they are assigned one of the four-passenger cabins. A single female passenger will never be assigned seat with a single male passenger in a two-passenger cabin etc. However remember AC First Class is more of a British legacy and contributes to less than 1% of the total number of reserved tickets sold in the country.

 

[George Harris]

I think any comparsion between European and American lines is suspect. Europe never had corporations buying politicians and attempting to drive competition out of business.

Reality check needed. Reality check needed.

 

[Phil S]

I'll write this tomorrow if I have time but the whole question of how the Amerixan RR system came to be different fom the French, German, and British, and the relevance of this for the future of american passenger trains deserves a separate toipic. I'll look forward to the discussion and ot learning a lot, Cheers.

 

[Anderson]

I think any comparsion between European and American lines is suspect. Europe never had corporations buying politicians and attempting to drive competition out of business.

Reality check needed. Reality check needed.

Actually, in Europe, the government frequently forcibly took over an industry and banned the competition. Witness cases such as British Rail, British Steel, etc.

 

[jebr]

As a relative outsider looking in (since I've traveled almost exclusively by intercity bus, with a little bit of commuter rail thrown in, and only booked Amtrak tickets), I feel like there's something to both approaches.

For user-assigned seats, there's the feeling of control over your seat. You chose your seat, you know where you're going to sit. You can book people together as need be, and be seated together without hassle. However, it comes at the (probable) cost of having people going to specific destinations spread out among the cars, and making it harder to make sure everyone gets off at the right stop.

The inverse is essentially true for having the conductor assign seats. People don't have any control and may not have their preferred seat, but everyone going to a specific destination can be grouped together and made sure that they get off at the right stop.

There seems to be an inherent problem with user-assigned seating on LD trains. From what it seems, the stops aren't terribly long (only a minute or two) and if the conductor doesn't know/notice who's getting off (since they're in a different car), someone may either sleep through the stop or may simply be grabbing their luggage and find that the train doors have already closed before they were able to actually get off.

Could this all be resolved? Definitely. A conductor could walk through all the coach cars, see who needs to disembark (or look at their manifest), and make sure those people are awake, and finally check the cars before disembarking (or telling them to have their luggage ready when disembarking.) What also may be better is to have everyone from each station able to pick any seat in a specific coach car (for example, anyone getting off in SLC could choose any seat in coach car 2, but could not choose any in coach car 1 or 3), eliminating most of the problems that seem to be addressed here in regards to passengers missing their station or unnecessary traffic in coach cars.

However, in order to do this, a person would have to accept being unable to print their ticket until X number of hours before boarding (much like with airlines) to make sure any last-minute changes in the cars (and thus changing seats) are noted. Thus, someone using eTicketing or printing from a Quik Trak/checking in at a staffed station could use this if they made sure to wait until then to print their ticket until the X number of hours beforehand (perhaps require eTicketing passengers to "check in" before leaving for the station if they already printed their ticket, or only allow people to print their ticket within that X number of hours in order to keep reserved seating. This restriction wouldn't be required for people using a true digital ticket, as they could check their seating with their ticket that they pull up on their app/web browser when they board.) This does mean currently that those boarding at non-staffed, non-Quik Trak stations cannot choose their own seats, but that restriction is eliminated with eTicketing (just require the limitations above for those wanting reserved/user-assigned seating).

All in all, it seems simple enough to resolve. However, either seating would have to be assigned for everyone by the system (which would have to be made clear to riders) or there would have to be a specific section set aside for "open seating" if a person didn't reserve a seat (or a mix of both, possibly). The limitations themselves are resolvable.

I should add, however, that I don't think it's necessary on most trains. Maybe on higher classes (or the Acela in general) to get rid of the boarding call/cattle call feel and to guarantee seating together at intermediate stations when the conductor doesn't assign/restrict seating him/herself, but it's a very low priority for me. A nicety, but not a necessity. Maybe my opinion will change once I'm in one for an extended length of time, but it seems like a minor part of the experience, especially on a LD train (where it seems as though the conductor assigns seating so that people from the same group are together, unlike what the Acela/NER sound like.)

 

[George Harris]

I think any comparsion between European and American lines is suspect. Europe never had corporations buying politicians and attempting to drive competition out of business.

Reality check needed. Reality check needed.

Actually, in Europe, the government frequently forcibly took over an industry and banned the competition. Witness cases such as British Rail, British Steel, etc.

This act was, and particularly in the case of British Rail, done at the point of near or post financial collapse of the operation as a business. So, was this really the govenment taking over an operation for the benefit of the public or the govenment taking over an operation with the appearance of benefiting the public while in reality bailing out the people at risk of major financial loss, as in the bank bailouts that happened recently in the US?

 

[Casinocim]

I have mentioned this before but since the topic out here is about listing annoying self-made "rules" by OBS, I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.

I had this same thing on my trip back in September. Our car was very empty with a few pairs of empty seats and several single seats. I finally moved up to the seats in front of me and was told I would have to move if they needed that seat, fine by me. I never did have to move, just glad I did move.

 

[user 1215]

This may not be a made up rule, but in my humble opinion, silly. When I was on the SWC or the Texas Eagle a while back, they closed the Cafe downstairs. That isn't unusual. But this time when they did, they actually closed the whole downstairs. I know that many folks like to play cards at the tables downstairs, and IIRC some of the lounges upstairs are half lounge, half tables. The conductor on this particular ride was quite adamant that no one was to go downstairs that he blocked the stairs with a trash box. I've been on several superliners overnight in the past and don't ever recall them keeping people from using the tables downstairs overnight. The Cafe is locked up pretty tight. If they are worried, a spot check every now and then would be prudent but in all honesty, more ilicit activity can take place by folks who sneak into a closed area than in an area that is always open.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I would point out my Southwest Chief journey last November where the coach attendant was adamant about not letting me sit at a window seat at an empty row in a half-empty train because "all seat pairs are for families" and single riders should all sit next to each other in one half of the coach. He enforced this "rule" all the way up to Albuquerque in spite of the three coaches being around 50% empty at all points of time during the journey.

I had this same thing on my trip back in September. Our car was very empty with a few pairs of empty seats and several single seats. I finally moved up to the seats in front of me and was told I would have to move if they needed that seat, fine by me. I never did have to move, just glad I did move.

Whenever someone claims that improving Amtrak's image and service would cost a fortune I'm going to point them here. Single travelers are not the enemy Amtrak. Your own lazy and arrogant staff are the problem.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

All businesses have bad employees. I find that Amtrak employees are generally helpful.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

All businesses have bad employees. I find that Amtrak employees are generally helpful.

Not all businesses have Amtrak's unique difficulties with planning, funding, and branding. Thus, I feel Amtrak would be wise to focus as much as possible on improving those aspects that don't cost a lot but do much to improve their image and perception.

 

[AlanB]

This may not be a made up rule, but in my humble opinion, silly. When I was on the SWC or the Texas Eagle a while back, they closed the Cafe downstairs. That isn't unusual. But this time when they did, they actually closed the whole downstairs. I know that many folks like to play cards at the tables downstairs, and IIRC some of the lounges upstairs are half lounge, half tables. The conductor on this particular ride was quite adamant that no one was to go downstairs that he blocked the stairs with a trash box. I've been on several superliners overnight in the past and don't ever recall them keeping people from using the tables downstairs overnight. The Cafe is locked up pretty tight. If they are worried, a spot check every now and then would be prudent but in all honesty, more ilicit activity can take place by folks who sneak into a closed area than in an area that is always open.

Well I heard that they're supposed to close things off when they're counting money, but otherwise normally there would and should be no reason to close off everything. However, I supposed that it is possible that perhaps a lock was broken on one of the cabinets so to try to avoid theft they closed things off totally.

 

[AlanB]

Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

No, we're not that dumb.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Yes, not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop. They start making very expensive demands that Amtrak fix their mistake, rather than owning up to their own foolishness and taking responsibility for their own actions. It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!

So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.

Heck, while I was only a semi-experienced train traveler at the time, my boss & I nearly boarded the wrong train about 23 years ago in Trenton. We had been at a business lunch, which I do admit had seen a fair amount of alcohol being served to all of us, and were headed back to NY. I thought that I had the correct side of the station, my first visit to it, and I was wrong. Thankfully I asked a conductor before we boarded the train to Philly. Of course we missed our train to NY and had to wait an hour for the next one.

And I couldn't rely on my boss to help me with picking the correct side to find our train on. He was halfway through his meal before he realized that he was eating what the client had ordered and that the client had his meal. :lol: Neither noticed when the waiter put the plates down. So I certainly wasn't going to ask him which track we needed!

 

[sechs]

Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

No, we're not that dumb.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Yes, not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are.

Oh, how many times have I seen someone almost or actually miss a plane because they failed to arrive to board on time! They print all of the information on your boarding pass; it's available on screens everywhere; and, they announce it throughout the airport.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Are the American travelers THAT dumb that they cannot board and alight from trains on their own? Let's see how difficult is this task? Train arrives, doors open, passenger boards and looks for his/her seat number. Announcement is made "XYZ station is now approaching". Passengers gets up, waits at the door. Door opens, passenger alights. Too difficult to understand for the American brains?

No, we're not that dumb.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.

Yes, not all Americans are that dumb. But there are some who indeed are. And they typically tend to be the most vocal when they find out that they have indeed boarded the wrong train or that they missed their stop. They start making very expensive demands that Amtrak fix their mistake, rather than owning up to their own foolishness and taking responsibility for their own actions. It's kind of like the guy who drives around the lowered gate, gets hit by the train, and then claims that the train was going to fast. "If it had been going slower officer, it wouldn't have hit me." It doesn't occur to them that they shouldn't have gone around the gate in the first place!

So the simple answer for Amtrak is to avoid that situation by implementing the practices that they do, like forcing everyone to stand in line at the gate such that an employee can verify that the person is indeed smart enough to have paid attention to the announcements and the train number printed on their ticket.

Heck, while I was only a semi-experienced train traveler at the time, my boss & I nearly boarded the wrong train about 23 years ago in Trenton. We had been at a business lunch, which I do admit had seen a fair amount of alcohol being served to all of us, and were headed back to NY. I thought that I had the correct side of the station, my first visit to it, and I was wrong. Thankfully I asked a conductor before we boarded the train to Philly. Of course we missed our train to NY and had to wait an hour for the next one.

And I couldn't rely on my boss to help me with picking the correct side to find our train on. He was halfway through his meal before he realized that he was eating what the client had ordered and that the client had his meal. :lol: Neither noticed when the waiter put the plates down. So I certainly wasn't going to ask him which track we needed!

So you are saying Amtrak needs to put everyone through the kindergarten walk because two drunk passengers could not figure out the right train?

Again, like I said before, the cheap and effective solutions exist in more evolved passenger rail networks halfway across the world from Amtrak, like in India (yes, sorry I have been dragging Indian Railways a lot into the picture, but come on, there is a lot Amtrak can learn from a passenger rail system that is well oiled and functional)- put up destination boards on the train's exterior and voila! problem solved! Like this-

Throw in a line in Espanol too and you are good to go! See it has visual clues too for folks who might on a later date sue Amtrak claiming they did not know how to read English or Spanish!