Silver Star has new Café menu and no diner

[Cho Cho Charlie]

In comparing Sleeper fares between the Meteor and the Star, I see that the difference is $50. If you're sharing the accommodation with someone else, that's 6 complete meals (2 lunch, 2 dinner, and 2 breakfast) in the dining car for an avg of $8.33 each. That's not all that huge. Matter of fact, I could call that down-right reasonably priced.

If you're alone, that the price per meal, of course, doubles to $16.66.

Even comparing that $16 against those recently mentioned "microwaved vacuum packed entrees" at $12, the $16 isn't all that bad once one factors that it includes a salad, dessert, beverage, and possibly a roll too.

 

[jis]

Let me draw your attention to:

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66084-silver-service-test-period-fares/?p=630797

and

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/66084-silver-service-test-period-fares/?p=631362

And point out that a result arrived at by cherrypicking an appropriate pair of fare buckets is not necessarily a good way of analyzing this. In other words your conclusions are faulty based on faulty analysis. While they are true for the specific pair of fares chosen, no general conclusions can be drawn from the numbers used.

 

[JoeBas]

The problem is considering F&B as a separate P&L item. That is just stupid.

No, that's congress.

The reason that the meals were "included" in the first place is that the dining car patronage was too low, people weren't buying the increasingly pricey food, and the storm clouds were gathering on the horizon regarding dropping them entirely. I don't see how any of that has changed if we went back to "a la carte" dining service.

 

[jis]

In general in trains that run with affordable fares for the general public, dining car service has been doomed more or less all over the world, not just in the US. Actually the reason that Dining Cars still survive in the US is because of the relative lack of use of passenger trains in the US. Where passenger trains are heavily used, either Dining Car service is a-la carte, together with the willingness to swallow a substantial loss for social/marketing/whatever reason, or where food is included in ticket, there is seldom a Dining Car. The food is served at your seat. When you have a thousand passengers on a train there simply is no way to include food in ticket and actually serve them in Dining Cars, without charging exorbitant fares, which of course will ensure that there are no thousand passengers on a train.

So I agree the equation has probably not changed, but I also think that traditional Dining Car service as we know it is doomed. We really need to start thinking out of the box on how to provide reasonable food service instead being stuck in the mode of trying to save something that really does not work, and in the process get worse and worse food service as time goes on.

Do I know what the solution precisely is or should be? Of course not. But looking around elsewhere it is pretty clear to me what the solution is not going to be, unless some magic can be found to reduce labor costs dramatically.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.

 

[jis]

I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.

That is not what is done in the rest of the world where one can get pretty decent food on the train.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The wheels of the bus train go round and round

 

[JoeBas]

Do I know what the solution precisely is or should be? Of course not. But looking around elsewhere it is pretty clear to me what the solution is not going to be, unless some magic can be found to reduce labor costs dramatically.

There's an old saying that's still used in the business world - you don't overthrow the king, until you KNOW who the new king will be.

 

[jis]

We're seeing the process unfold as we speak. I just wish it could be carried out more rationally in a more deliberative way. But apparently not.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.

That is not what is done in the rest of the world where one can get pretty decent food on the train.

So, you always buy all your food from the odd dude in seat B37?

 

[jis]

I guess in lieu of the traditional dining car, we could go back to requiring LD trains to stop every 4 hours, for an hour or so, for passengers to get off and patronage a restaurant near the station.

That is not what is done in the rest of the world where one can get pretty decent food on the train.

So, you always buy all your food from the odd dude in seat B37?

Huh?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The Silver Star is proving that a full service dining car is not needed on overnight trains.

The problem for Amtrak is... the passengers they serve are from all walks of life. And have totally different desires and expectations when it comes to food service. If they could find a way to make decent food in the Cafe car, I think that's the simplest answer. Panera Bread has several good pasta selections that are either microwaved or quickly convection oven cooked to order. Not sure about the paninis and such that they have but they are made quickly, and are obviously pre-made and shipped in.

Hopefully the new "meals" in the cafe car will be good quality.

 

[JoeBas]

"The Silver Star is proving that a full service dining car is not needed on overnight trains."

The Silver Star is proving that there's a market for less-than-full-service dining, at a lower price point, while dining is still available for those who require it on a (mostly) parallel route. Important difference.

 

[MARC Rider]

"There is significant evidence that they are currently unable to serve all Coach passengers that wish to use the Diner either."

Happened to me a few years ago when I was traveling coach ... on the Silver Star, of all trains.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

"The Silver Star is proving that a full service dining car is not needed on overnight trains."

The Silver Star is proving that there's a market for less-than-full-service dining, at a lower price point, while dining is still available for those who require it on a (mostly) parallel route. Important difference.

I agree there is a difference, but I don't know if Amtrak sees it that way. Because of the parallel route, it's an easy train to "test the waters." But once they have gathered data from the test... I bet more LD trains will lose their diners.

 

[jis]

I think the Diner hard product is not going away. Those cars will get used as better Lounge/Buffet/Cafe cars. What will get modified is the Diner soft product, with a goal to significantly reduce labor cost.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

But without the meals being "included", a lot of people will just decide to "rough it" and/or deal with the lack of food. People are much more likely to partake if it's "included" than if it's a separate charge and/or a la carte.

That's why I proposed the compromise of bedrooms still having to pay for meals. I'm not familiar with sleeper cars, how many roomettes and how many bedrooms are on a typical Viewliner car/ Superliner car?

A real radical idea going the opposite way: Make it so all fares, coach and sleeper have to pay for meals. The coach fares would skyrocket but possibly the bedroom fares drop (the overall cost of the diner car/staff would be passed onto more passengers). In cruise ships, all food is included for all passengers and I'm sure most passengers aren't eating all that they paid for. I'm certainly not in favor of this as I might be priced out of even a regular coach fare.

It's all a matter of where do you draw the line in the sand between requiring paying for meals and not. Do you make it all passengers must pay, only sleeper accommodation passengers must pay, only bedroom passengers must pay, or no one must pay (would mean the end of the diner then)? NARP has really pushed to keep diner car service and I imagine many of you still want it but there's a cost to it.

I have no problem with the SS being diner-less with the SM having one so passengers can have a choice. If they bring back the BL have that be a diner-less train. Perhaps some NYP-CHI passengers will be drawn to the cheaper sleepers of the new BL while the LSL will still exist for those who can't live without the Amtrak steaks.

 

[JoeBas]

I agree there is a difference, but I don't know if Amtrak sees it that way. Because of the parallel route, it's an easy train to "test the waters." But once they have gathered data from the test... I bet more LD trains will lose their diners.

And riders.

 

[JoeBas]

That's why I proposed the compromise of bedrooms still having to pay for meals. I'm not familiar with sleeper cars, how many roomettes and how many bedrooms are on a typical Viewliner car/ Superliner car?

This is the worst of both worlds. Viewliner has 2BR + 1H per car, Crescent for example 2 cars. Even assuming all rooms booked & everyone eats, run a diner for 12 guaranteed people?????

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I agree there is a difference, but I don't know if Amtrak sees it that way. Because of the parallel route, it's an easy train to "test the waters." But once they have gathered data from the test... I bet more LD trains will lose their diners.

And riders.

I do not believe there is a significant drop in ridership on the SS since the diner was pulled. I believe it was an experiment and had the experiment "failed" in the eyes of Amtrak it would not have been a permanent change.

And if you're really not going to travel on Amtrak for LD travel, what are your other options?

Fly

Take a Bus

Drive

What you won't be doing is riding another company's train because ... there isn't one. And if food is your biggest reason to choose the train over one of the other options, I'm guessing the food isn't better on buses or planes. I guess if you drive you can stop at fancy restaurants along the way.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I for one wouldn't want to ride the Broadway Ltd. between NYP and CHI without a Diner.

I definitely would choose the Cap, the Lake Shore or even the Card over that option but then I'm one who wouldn't ride the Silver Starvation sans Diner between NYP and MIA just to save $50!

If the old Slumber Coach model was on offer I'd consider it, and probably have Dinner and Breakfast in the Diner and skip Lunch. YMMV

 

[jis]

So the Cardinal Diner which will essentially serve the same food as the Cafe on the hypothetical Broadway or the actual Silver Star, after the menu updates go into effect would cause you to select the Cardinal over the hypothetical Broadway? Sounds quite logical.

BTW you have to be very very flexible with your dates to find a $50 difference day between MIA and NYP.

 

[Bob Dylan]

So the Cardinal Diner which will essentially serve the same food as the Cafe on the hypothetical Broadway or the actual Silver Star, after the menu updates go into effect would cause you to select the Cardinal over the hypothetical Broadway? Sounds quite logical.

BTW you have to be very very flexible with your dates to find a $50 difference day between MIA and NYP.

Touche!

 

[jebr]

Sounds like we could have some sort of operation to retrofit the diners for more storage space, have most things ready-to-heat (with specific instructions for heating to make a decent product) and serve people at their seats at a given time. Is there enough staff for the coaches to allow that (and would there be time for the sleeper car attendants to handle it?) At-seat or cart service seems to be the best of both worlds, especially if supplemented by a cafe car for on-demand food.

And including meals with all coach tickets should be a non-starter. Most people don't take trains from endpoint to endpoint, and many take it over either zero or one meal periods. Raising coach prices to cover the cost of a meal would almost certainly drive down business overall.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Spot on jeb!

And if India, as jis says, can feed hundreds on people on LD Trains, no reason Amtrak couldn't do it also!