Silver Star has new Café menu and no diner

[Train2104]

The notice from Amtrak says their decision was based on feedback they received.

From Congress, not passengers.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a good number of people who were pleased with the cheap rooms. They just don't post here.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

The roomettes on the Star have not gotten cheaper; instead, the roomettes on the Meteor have become more expensive. I traveled for several years on the Star at a rate posted now, with meals included. And "unbundling" the rooms from the dining cost? I just checked a date in April, and the Star was just over $300 and the Meteor just over $600. I don't believe I was eating $300 worth of food in the dining car.

I imagine that Amtrak has brilliantly and creatively spun its marketing jargon to justify what it had planned to do all along.

 

[tommylicious]

I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.

why not? That seems silly. The Lake Shore Limited for example only serves Breakfast and Lunch the entire Eastbound trip, and that assumes you are going all the way to New York City. You would really alter your entire travel plan based on that Breakfast and Lunch?

Now a multi-day train such as the Zephyr, I would think about changing my travel plans if that train were to lose a diner.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.

While a Diner is always nice, if it is a train like the Late Shore, I could survive going through part of a day without any "proper" chow, especially if I knew NYC or Chicago was at the end of the line. But let's hope Amtrak doesn't get any more cute ideas about this.....

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I would never ride an overnight train without a proper diner.

Well, said. I agree.

For me, an overnight train is a real, real long ride (24 hours or more). For that length of time, I would certainly expect/need a least a couple of decent meals. That definitely excludes the food from the café as making a good meal.

 

[PRR 60]

From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:

"Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."

 

[JoeBas]

From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:

"Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."

You have, Mark. It's called "bottom".

 

[greatcats]

I'm with you, JoeBas!

 

[niemi24s]

The roomettes on the Star have not gotten cheaper. . .

They most certainly have - but obviously not on the date(s) you checked or traveled:

• Prior to the start of the Stars no diner test, the low bucket Roomette fare was $239 between NYP and MIA - as was the Meteor

• During the first portion of the no diner test, the Star Roomette low bucket dropped to $149 while the Meteor remained at $239

• After the announcement of the no diner being permanent on the Star (and the rates for both trains were redone several days ago), the Star low bucket Roomette rose to $179 while the Meteor was unchanged at $239

Those were fares actually offered and were the lowest of the five offered - and not any low bucket fare that was in the books but never offered. AmSnag must be used to obtain and compare the various fares for each and every day during a period of interest because the rates can and do fluctuate wildly and unpredictably. I've seen Roomette fares posted for 4 of the 5 buckets in a 4 day period and for all 5 buckets in a 7 day period. Only AmSnag will allow that sort of info to be gathered easily.

P.S.: During an eyeball-numbing search through my file of AnSnag queries, this ultimate example of fare fluctuations hove to view:

 

[A Voice]

"Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."

Only Amtrak would be surprised to discover that when you reduce the price of your goods or services, you sell more of them. Chrysler could sell more cars and McDonald's more hamburgers if they cut the price, just like Amtrak can sell more tickets (rooms) at a cheaper price. But you get what you pay for, and by reducing the quality of the product its now worth less - and maximizing revenue per unit is critical when you have a finite inventory such as the (fixed) capacity of two Viewliner sleepers. While you could add more cars to the train, we all know how few extra cars are even available (and if the now longer train needs a second locomotive, part of the cost savings disappears too).

Far better to make more on each room sold, with reasonable occupancy rates, when you have so few rooms to sell. To achieve that you need to make the service worth more - and that means more and upscale amenities, not the bottom feeder approach of Megabus and Motel 6 (both have their place, of course). The Wal-Mart model only works when you can make up the smaller profit margin on volume; Amtrak literally cannot do that.

If you only have 100 rooms to sell in your hotel, and can achieve high occupancy most of the time, would you do better to price them at Motel 6 or Hampton Inn prices (realizing a Hampton costs more to operate)?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:

"Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."

I'm OK with it. Probably most passengers still have the Meteor as an option. Meanwhile dropping the diner from the Star consist shows Congress how hard Amtrak is working to cut food & Beverage costs as it promised.

Unless there's an almost instantaneous revamping of the CAF order, Amtrak will soon have 5 Viewliner diners not for the Star that could be used elsewhere. Perhaps Amtrak could flip the City of New Orleans or the Capitol Ltd to single level service and cascade the freed up Superliner equipment out west where it's needed. On perhaps restart a Broadway Ltd./extended Pennsylvanian.

Dropping diners from the Star doesn't have to mean one less LD train with diners, just that a different train will have diners added.

 

[Train2104]

Only Amtrak would be surprised to discover that when you reduce the price of your goods or services, you sell more of them. Chrysler could sell more cars and McDonald's more hamburgers if they cut the price, just like Amtrak can sell more tickets (rooms) at a cheaper price. But you get what you pay for, and by reducing the quality of the product its now worth less - and maximizing revenue per unit is critical when you have a finite inventory such as the (fixed) capacity of two Viewliner sleepers. While you could add more cars to the train, we all know how few extra cars are even available (and if the now longer train needs a second locomotive, part of the cost savings disappears too).

Far better to make more on each room sold, with reasonable occupancy rates, when you have so few rooms to sell. To achieve that you need to make the service worth more - and that means more and upscale amenities, not the bottom feeder approach of Megabus and Motel 6 (both have their place, of course). The Wal-Mart model only works when you can make up the smaller profit margin on volume; Amtrak literally cannot do that.

If you only have 100 rooms to sell in your hotel, and can achieve high occupancy most of the time, would you do better to price them at Motel 6 or Hampton Inn prices (realizing a Hampton costs more to operate)?

Isn't Amtrak already "making more on each room sold" here by lowering their costs more than they are lowering their prices?

Amtrak *can* partially make up the profit margin on volume by reselling the same room over and over, that's what they seem to be doing.

 

[neroden]

From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:

"Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."

But occupancy rate is NOT up. I'm not sure what Murphy actually said, but I hope your interpolation was incorrect. What happened was that they opened up more roomettes for revenue sales by removing the staff from the rooms. The number of roomettes sold increased strictly in proportion to that. The occupancy rate seems to be the same.

 

[xyzzy]

There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.

The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.

 

[AmtrakLKL]

From the Trains Magazine, March 2016 issue, Mark Murphy, head of Amtrak's Long Distance Business Unit said this regarding the Silver Star food service cuts:

"Look at the Silver Star demand. When [sleeper occupancy] is up 21 to 25% consistently for three or four months, that tells me we've struck something."

But occupancy rate is NOT up. I'm not sure what Murphy actually said, but I hope your interpolation was incorrect. What happened was that they opened up more roomettes for revenue sales by removing the staff from the rooms. The number of roomettes sold increased strictly in proportion to that. The occupancy rate seems to be the same.

Removing the dining car only freed up three rooms, or 12.5% of the total onboard. So capacity increased 12.5% and occupancy increased 21-25%. How is that strictly in proportion?

The rooms turn more often now with shorter segments being booked. It isn't unusual to see a room turn two or three times between NYP-MIA on the Star, often detraining and boarding at the same station. The OBS just LOVE when that happens... The Meteor tends to have longer trips in the sleepers, thus they don't turn as much but do command a higher fare both because of the diner and the longer distances.

 

[neroden]

I think Murphy didn't say "occupancy", which has a very specific meaning (it's the opposite of "vacancy" and is basically load factor). I wonder what he did say, but I don't have a subscription to _Trains_.

 

[PRR 60]

I think Murphy didn't say "occupancy", which has a very specific meaning (it's the opposite of "vacancy" and is basically load factor). I wonder what he did say, but I don't have a subscription to _Trains_.

He was stating that the occupancy (essentially the load factor on a rooms sold basis) has increased by "21 to 25%." So, if it was 60% before, he is saying it is 81 to 85% now. I'n not saying it's true, but that is what the Amtrak head of long distance services said, so at the very least, that is the company position.

 

[jis]

One of my guesses was that with a lower Sleeper fare they will be able to attract many more short turn passengers into Sleepers, and that will lead to greater turnover and multiple use of the same room in a single run. Seems like that is happening. If they are able to find the sweet spot in ticket prices they should be able to hold together on the revenue side since short turn passengers pay a higher per mile fare. Having 5 short turn passengers occupy a room in a single journey is more lucrative than having a single long run passenger occupy the same room.

I saw this phenomenon take place in India over the last two years on the so called Duronto Express trains, which were originally introduced as long distance end to end passenger only trains with of course multiple non-commercial service stops en route. The revenue enhancement scheme that they put into effect this year was to introduce quotas for each service stop and thus have upto three sleepers on the train (each 44 passenger) have multiple use at higher per km rate, and the result indeed was higher revenue. Weird, almost counter intuitive but well it is what it is. The core determinant is how well you are able to fill those short turn berths through the journey, and in India the answer typically is 100%, demand so outstrips supply.

 

[copperdeer]

I think that's the point to take away from the Star - because it detours from the MIA-NYP route the Meteor takes by 2 hours both for Tampa and in NC & SC, by it's very nature it's geared towards shorter trips, just linking them all together on one line. It seems like the longest anyone would take the Star is 16 hours, between NYP & Denmark, SC. The Carolinian, particularly 79, often is late enough to bump the ride from NYP-CLT close to that same time without a dining car (although if you don't mind the times, the Crescent would be a better choice in that case). I frequently ride the Star between Raleigh and NY, sometimes without visiting the café car at all. Although I never would've considered it before, with the lower pricing, I'm tempted to see if a roomette is worth it now.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

Nooo!!! Amtrak took the diner off the Silver Star PERMANENTLY???!!! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?!

I think this is a bad idea. Amtrak needs to put the diner back on the Silver Star in my opinion.

 

[ainamkartma]

I think Murphy didn't say "occupancy", which has a very specific meaning (it's the opposite of "vacancy" and is basically load factor). I wonder what he did say, but I don't have a subscription to _Trains_.

He was stating that the occupancy (essentially the load factor on a rooms sold basis) has increased by "21 to 25%." So, if it was 60% before, he is saying it is 81 to 85% now. I'n not saying it's true, but that is what the Amtrak head of long distance services said, so at the very least, that is the company position.

Whoa, whoa. Does your second sentence actually logically follow from your first? 21% of 60% is ~12%. So an increase of 21% "if it was 60% before", could be 72%, not necessarily 81 to 85%, as you conclude.

Of course, we don't have the underlying data, but only what Murphy said. But it seems reasonable to think he might want to spin the numbers in the most positive light for Amtrak.

And of course, it may not be a coincidence that the 12% increase (based on the number of rooms, not the occupancy) corresponds closely to the fraction of rooms freed up by ditching the dining staff.

Ainam "lies, damn lies, and statistics" kartma

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Nooo!!! Amtrak took the diner off the Silver Star PERMANENTLY???!!! HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN?!

Thank these guys (House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure)...

Especially these guys (former and current chairman respectively)...

And this guy too...

On the one hand it sucks to lose the diner. On the other hand Amtrak's hands were kind of tied on this and their diner chow has become such low nutrition high calorie junk that it's hard for me to truly miss it. Personally I think Amtrak should run a test with customer accessible refrigerators and microwaves so we can tend to our own meals. That would probably be enough for me to keep riding Amtrak. Too bad that doesn't appear to be part of the Mica/Shuster/Boardman solution.

 

[tonys96]

There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.

The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.

29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

There is little left to say on this point. Some of us think it's a smart move by Amtrak (I'm one of them). Some of us don't. In any event, it has happened and I don't see that it will be revisited by Amtrak anytime soon.

The question is whether the same process will be extended to other LD trains. My gut feel is that it will... not 97/98, certainly not 52/53, but I wouldn't bet my life on diners elsewhere east of the Mississippi. 19/20, for example.

29+ hours from NOL to NYP with no diner?...........AAARRRRRGGGHHHHHHH

I agree! How can this get any worse?