Sleeping car prices and on-board upgrades

[Devil's Advocate]

Do you think that the SCA has time to go test everyone of some 50 seats in the sleeping car before departure? Even if they did, it's unlikely that they could have had it fixed in time before the train departed. They only come on duty about an hour before the train's departure and they have much to do during that time, like placing hand towels & washcloths in every room, something that I've never not seen done. They also have to put away all their supplies and a bunch of other things.

Please go back and re-read the post I quoted and was actually responding to...

SCAs are aware of the foibles of their car: toilets that need frequent resets, rattles helped by cardboard or duct tape, etc., and sometimes have already taken care of these things without being asked.

I didn't say the SCA's should be intimately familiar with their cars or have a memorized list of problems they can preemptively resolve with the wondrous qualities of tape and cardboard, but since Alice implied they do I explained that my own SCA was clueless to the preexisting issues in my roomette and was incapable of fixing it. Even if we were to expect the SCA at SAS to be proactive they would only need to check the rooms that are not already occupied, which is going to be far fewer than fifty seats in my experience. They don't have to go from checking nothing to checking everything, but maybe a quick checklist for rooms receiving new pax boarding in the next hour or two would be nice. If something is broken and can't be fixed then maybe the SCA could shuffle things around or give up his own room and take the broken room instead. Just a thought. My view may be that of an outsider, but it's not completely off base to prod Amtrak into retooling their processes in order to improve their customer satisfaction levels and the mindshare image that comes from them. It's not that my SCA failed as an employee, but neither did he live up to the billing seen on this forum. For those of us who can move under our own power and handle our own bags and convert our own chairs the SCA's are somewhat superfluous to our experience. Or maybe the crews I've seen are just unusually indifferent and the rest of the network is much more polished and improved. It seems like a bit of a stretch but I can't rule it out until such time as I can get enough time off to go see for myself.

Please cite a story that you've seen where the crew didn't evacuate a derailed train or lead passengers to safety.

I never made any claim they wouldn't tell people to get out or try to assist them in whatever adhock manner they could fathom. I simply said I don't have faith that Amtrak's emergency SOP is any good. In other words, I don't have faith that Amtrak's onboard staff is properly trained or in proper physical shape to handle a true disaster. Not every onboard employee is old or feeble or indifferent toward pax but some of them are and if you're in their car are you going to get the help you need? Maybe or maybe not. I'm going to link to a video of how one of my local trains experienced a true disaster. It covers a variety of contributing factors but the takeaway was a total CF in every sense of the word and it does a great job of encapsulating many of the issues with Amtrak's safety practices that apparently still remain unresolved. What good will a new set of rolling stock do if it's simply flung into a river every time there's another undetected kink in the rails? While railroads are getting safer in other countries here in America they're getting less safe with an ever more determined push to remove as many eyeballs as possible from our rail infrastructure by the railroads who own and operate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJMOghxT0AE

As for the number of accidents, unless you count grade crossing accidents, it's a very low number.

Low compared to what? And why wouldn't we count grade crossings? They've been recognized as the number one concern among countries who take passenger rail seriously and are largely already addressed by ensuring there are as few grade crossings as possible. What has Amtrak done to address this?

How do you alternate shifts when OBS work all day long? Most trains only have one cook during off peak times, and one assistant cook during peak times. They already can't handle the load with two in the kitchen, so how do you alternate shifts without hurting customer service? Most trains only have 2 SA or waiters and again they are straining to meet the demands of passengers, so how do you have shifts that would leave only 1 waiter for dinner?

I might have to just concede this one as I honestly have no idea how exactly Amtrak shifts work. I'll simply keep an eye on it and if there are obvious inefficiencies that appear to have a better solution I'll address them again at that time.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I've never been involved in any rail related emergency, but seeing the results from previous wreaks does not give me much confidence in Amtrak's SOP. The number of accidents and incidents involving Amtrak is absolutely staggering to me. If any airline had this sort of record it presumably would have folded long ago. I guess this is one area where operating below the public's radar is actually a good thing.

The number of incidents involving a train collision in which a passenger on board an Amtrak train has died? Amtrak bas been in operation for 39 years, and I can think of less than a dozen such accidents over that time period. Derailments happen. Grade crossing collisions happen frequently. Injury to passengers is fairly rare, serious injury extremely rare, and death almost unheard of.

In fact, three particularly bad derailments in which deaths have occured (Chase, Big Bayou Canot, and Palo Verde) were the results of a 1) High Conrail engineer, 2) a louisiana barge crashing into a CSX-owned and poorly designed bridge, and 3) terrorists. In each case, the death rates were actually lower than a reasonable person would expect.

In the case of the Chase, Maryland disaster, only 14 passengers, an LSA, and the engineer were killed, despite a passenger load of almost 600, and a collision closing speed in excess of 150 miles per hour. President Ronald Reagan went so far as to publicly honor Amtrak's employees and residents of Chase for their valiant efforts from the collision. Clearly, Amtrak's employees failed to do their job here. In fact, so well did Amtrak's equipment stand up to the collision, all but two of the cars involved in it are still in service.

A similarly speeded collision in Eschede, Germany (Actually, it was notably slower), was the result of several things, most notably the crew IGNORING a passenger informing them of a train wheel poking through the floor. The train, Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen's, locomotive and first two cars survived. Everything else became a pile of scrap metal. 101 passengers died, and 87 were severely injured, out of a total passenger load of just 287.

Big Bayou Canot, Amtrak's worst rail disaster, resulted in the death of 47 people, not to mention the loss of Amtrak's then newest locmotive, P40dc 819. The deaths were less than you would expect, considering that the train slammed into a bridge superstructure, fell into a bayou, submerged completely two locomotives and four cars at 2:45 in the morning when its occupants were likely still asleep. And then had the bridge fall down on top of it.

The Palo Verde disaster killed only one passenger, a sleeping car attendant who happened to be standing next to a Superliner stairwell at the time of the derailment, fell down it, and broke his neck.

In all, less than a hundred passengers have been killed on Amtrak in its 39 year history. No airline can make that claim. The people that die as a result of the train colliding with them should not influence your opinion of Amtrak's workers. Those collisions are never their fault.

 

[Ryan]

As for the number of accidents, unless you count grade crossing accidents, it's a very low number.

Low compared to what? And why wouldn't we count grade crossings? They've been recognized as the number one concern among countries who take passenger rail seriously and are largely already addressed by ensuring there are as few grade crossings as possible. What has Amtrak done to address this?

What should or could Amtrak do about a situation that they have no control over? Why? The municipalities that build the the road crossings and the freight railroads that own the tracks share the responsibility for the safety at the crossings, and the idiots that break the law by placing themselves on the rails in front of the train bear sole responsibility for being there. Between your frightening lack of knowledge and wildly inaccurate expectations, you're basically talking nonsense.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I never made any claim they wouldn't tell people to get out or try to assist them in whatever adhock manner they could fathom. I simply said I don't have faith that Amtrak's emergency SOP is any good. In other words, I don't have faith that Amtrak's onboard staff is properly trained or in proper physical shape to handle a true disaster. Not every onboard employee is old or feeble or indifferent toward pax but some of them are and if you're in their car are you going to get the help you need? Maybe or maybe not. I'm going to link to a video of how one of my local trains experienced a true disaster. It covers a variety of contributing factors but the takeaway was a total CF in every sense of the word and it does a great job of encapsulating many of the issues with Amtrak's safety practices that apparently still remain unresolved. What good will a new set of rolling stock do if it's simply flung into a river every time there's another undetected kink in the rails? While railroads are getting safer in other countries here in America they're getting less safe with an ever more determined push to remove as many eyeballs as possible from our rail infrastructure by the railroads who own and operate it.

There are problems with every safety procedure, most notably that at the moment something goes wrong, every plan you ever conceive is unworkable and must be thrown out the window. In the think tank of safety ideas, where their pulse rate is normal, people aren't being hurt around them, and the people thinking are sitting comfortably in their office chairs, lots of plans sound good.

In the heat of the moment, your train derailed, people potentially injured, and the passengers whose lives are entrusted to you in need of assistance, the entire situation changes. Amtrak's safety record far exceeds that of any airline currently operating flights. When the big poobahs look over something that has go wrong, they can't just say, "Well, the equipment withstood as good as anyone can reasonably expect, the safety workers performed in excess of anything you could expect, the problem that occurred was something that one can't possibly expect to always prevent, and therefore, everyone did as they should and we really can't fault anyone."

Which in the case of some accidents, is the actual truth. The AutoTrain wreck, for instance. That track had been properly inspected the day before and nothing had been noted wrong. Evidence was submitted that as recently as the day before, nothing was wrong. What are they supposed to do? Have microcameras checking the rails every 5 seconds? Don't be ridiculous!

But you have to point the finger at somebody or something. Something had to have gone wrong that was preventable. You need to have somebody to direct your upset at. Bah. Sometimes, things that were completely unforseeable or completely unpreventable in the course of reason, happen. Sometimes, things go wrong that you can't stop. Sometimes, a fitting on a brake line that looks and feels perfectly secure to the competent Mechanic isn't. It fails and somebody dies. Nobody could have prevented it, it just happened.

Amtrak doesn't bother changing their safety procedure because... there is nothing in it that can realistically be changed to improve actual accident safety, short of larger windows in their cars. Those will be phased in as the Amfleets get replaced over the next 20 years or so.

Low compared to what? And why wouldn't we count grade crossings? They've been recognized as the number one concern among countries who take passenger rail seriously and are largely already addressed by ensuring there are as few grade crossings as possible. What has Amtrak done to address this?

Amtrak owns only a few lines on which it runs. Those lines have few grade crossings, as few as is reasonable to remove. Amtrak has removed those it could remove. If you would like to give Amtrak several billion dollars to move rivers, build overpasses, and otherwise do the things that would grade separate the remaining crossings, go right ahead. We could then have higher trains speeds.

Furthermore, the number of grade crossing accidents in Amtrak's history that have resulted in the death of passengers onboard the train can be counted on one hand. Count those in the problems regarding the safety of RIDING onboard an Amtrak train.

However, most passengers involved in a grade crossing accident find out they were so involved when they read why their train was delayed in the morning paper. It is not a passenger safety issue. It is an execution of the Darwin principle on the creatures sufficiently unsuitable to their environment to, for whatever idiot reasons, manage to place themselves directly in front of a fast approaching train.

As much as people call me cold, sick, and whatever, to those people who kill themselves in grade crossing incidents, good riddance, and thank you for removing yourself from the gene pool.

I might have to just concede this one as I honestly have no idea how exactly Amtrak shifts work. I'll simply keep an eye on it and if there are obvious inefficiencies that appear to have a better solution I'll address them again at that time.

Please, I'm sure your highly skilled, finely honed over years of experience, ability to run a passenger train far exceeds that of people who do it for a living. Please share with us your instant expert details. =

 

[haolerider]

Do you think that the SCA has time to go test everyone of some 50 seats in the sleeping car before departure? Even if they did, it's unlikely that they could have had it fixed in time before the train departed. They only come on duty about an hour before the train's departure and they have much to do during that time, like placing hand towels & washcloths in every room, something that I've never not seen done. They also have to put away all their supplies and a bunch of other things.

Please go back and re-read the post I quoted and was actually responding to...

SCAs are aware of the foibles of their car: toilets that need frequent resets, rattles helped by cardboard or duct tape, etc., and sometimes have already taken care of these things without being asked.

I didn't say the SCA's should be intimately familiar with their cars or have a memorized list of problems they can preemptively resolve with the wondrous qualities of tape and cardboard, but since Alice implied they do I explained that my own SCA was clueless to the preexisting issues in my roomette and was incapable of fixing it. Even if we were to expect the SCA at SAS to be proactive they would only need to check the rooms that are not already occupied, which is going to be far fewer than fifty seats in my experience. They don't have to go from checking nothing to checking everything, but maybe a quick checklist for rooms receiving new pax boarding in the next hour or two would be nice. If something is broken and can't be fixed then maybe the SCA could shuffle things around or give up his own room and take the broken room instead. Just a thought. My view may be that of an outsider, but it's not completely off base to prod Amtrak into retooling their processes in order to improve their customer satisfaction levels and the mindshare image that comes from them. It's not that my SCA failed as an employee, but neither did he live up to the billing seen on this forum. For those of us who can move under our own power and handle our own bags and convert our own chairs the SCA's are somewhat superfluous to our experience. Or maybe the crews I've seen are just unusually indifferent and the rest of the network is much more polished and improved. It seems like a bit of a stretch but I can't rule it out until such time as I can get enough time off to go see for myself.

Please cite a story that you've seen where the crew didn't evacuate a derailed train or lead passengers to safety.

I never made any claim they wouldn't tell people to get out or try to assist them in whatever adhock manner they could fathom. I simply said I don't have faith that Amtrak's emergency SOP is any good. In other words, I don't have faith that Amtrak's onboard staff is properly trained or in proper physical shape to handle a true disaster. Not every onboard employee is old or feeble or indifferent toward pax but some of them are and if you're in their car are you going to get the help you need? Maybe or maybe not. I'm going to link to a video of how one of my local trains experienced a true disaster. It covers a variety of contributing factors but the takeaway was a total CF in every sense of the word and it does a great job of encapsulating many of the issues with Amtrak's safety practices that apparently still remain unresolved. What good will a new set of rolling stock do if it's simply flung into a river every time there's another undetected kink in the rails? While railroads are getting safer in other countries here in America they're getting less safe with an ever more determined push to remove as many eyeballs as possible from our rail infrastructure by the railroads who own and operate it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJMOghxT0AE

As for the number of accidents, unless you count grade crossing accidents, it's a very low number.

Low compared to what? And why wouldn't we count grade crossings? They've been recognized as the number one concern among countries who take passenger rail seriously and are largely already addressed by ensuring there are as few grade crossings as possible. What has Amtrak done to address this?

How do you alternate shifts when OBS work all day long? Most trains only have one cook during off peak times, and one assistant cook during peak times. They already can't handle the load with two in the kitchen, so how do you alternate shifts without hurting customer service? Most trains only have 2 SA or waiters and again they are straining to meet the demands of passengers, so how do you have shifts that would leave only 1 waiter for dinner?

I might have to just concede this one as I honestly have no idea how exactly Amtrak shifts work. I'll simply keep an eye on it and if there are obvious inefficiencies that appear to have a better solution I'll address them again at that time.

It is quite obvious that you have never been involved in a serious derailment or been anywhere close to one. You have no idea of the massive amount of coordination on the part of the Amtrak staff that takes place immediately (and I mean immediately) after a derailment or service disruption. After local emergency authorities have removed and treated the injured a long series of actions begin to take place.

First, the passengers must be removed from the equipment and moved to a safe location, which means someone has to arrange to rent busses to move the passengers that are not injured. Coordination with the local community must be accomplished to locate a facility that will accommodate hundreds of passengers. Food must be ordered and served to the passengers and crew. Their luggage must be removed from the baggage car and taken to the central facility for identification. Their personal belongings must be removed from each coach, sleeper and any other equipment on the train. This must be bagged and identified as to its location and then removed to the central location for identification. Each passenger on the manifest has to be interviewed and a determination made as to their eventual destination, so busses can be ordered to take them to central locations downline. Their baggage has to be located, identified and then put on the bus. In some cases, plane tickets will be purchased to get passengers to a city downline, especially if they are cruise line passengers who need to be in their departure city in time to board their cruise.

I have been involved in one such derailment and from the time of the derailment until the last passenger was put on a bus, transferred to an airport and all luggage and personal belongings located, identified and returned to the owners only 9 hours had elapsed. Fortunately, no passengers were seriously injured although there was a fatality with the Amtrak crew.

I don't worry about the Amtrak Emergency plans and, if you had the slightest bit of knowledge about the issues, neither would you.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In all, less than a hundred passengers have been killed on Amtrak in its 39 year history. No airline can make that claim.

Are you saying there are no airlines who can make the claim they've had fewer deaths as a percentage of all passengers transported? Even in absolute numbers of lives lost over a similar span of time you might want to research that first. It's not that I consider Amtrak to be likely to harm or kill me, it's safe enough that I still ride it and recommend it to others, but it's also pretty clear that it could be much safer still based on how other passenger rail networks are run. Not to mention that we talk about how Amtrak could benefit from more rolling stock without mentioning that they might not need it if they hadn't lost other cars to apparently preventable accidents in the first place. In the video I linked to above I'm left wondering if Amtrak could at least do some more inspections even if they cannot on their own peform or demand specific maintenance on other track. I don't share your enthusiasm for grade crossing deaths, so maybe we're just on a different wavelength there. I'm not trying to say we need to safeguard everything we do by any means, but if we could cut down on grade crossing impacts it seems like a worthwhile goal to me. Even if you hate everyone who gets hit and condemn them to death it's still slowing everthing down and sending Amtrak hardware to the repair shop.

 

[Ryan]

but it's also pretty clear that it could be much safer still based on how other passenger rail networks are run.

How so? Compared to what other networks? What stats do you have to back that up?

 

[PRR 60]

..In all, less than a hundred passengers have been killed on Amtrak in its 39 year history. No airline can make that claim.

Southwest? jetBlue? Neither has ever had a passenger fatality.

 

[Ryan]

Southwest killed that kid in Chicago when the plane overshot Midway. Not a passenger fatality, but still...

 

[AlanB]

SCAs are aware of the foibles of their car: toilets that need frequent resets, rattles helped by cardboard or duct tape, etc., and sometimes have already taken care of these things without being asked.

I didn't say the SCA's should be intimately familiar with their cars or have a memorized list of problems they can preemptively resolve with the wondrous qualities of tape and cardboard, but since Alice implied they do I explained that my own SCA was clueless to the preexisting issues in my roomette and was incapable of fixing it. Even if we were to expect the SCA at SAS to be proactive they would only need to check the rooms that are not already occupied, which is going to be far fewer than fifty seats in my experience. They don't have to go from checking nothing to checking everything, but maybe a quick checklist for rooms receiving new pax boarding in the next hour or two would be nice.

That of course in addition to bringing meals to those who request them, including those in the H-Room who almost always need meals delivered; opening the door at every stop; making coffee; cleaning the rest rooms; making beds; trying to find time to eat; cleaning rooms in between passengers; and working a 16 hour day.

If something is broken and can't be fixed then maybe the SCA could shuffle things around or give up his own room and take the broken room instead. Just a thought.

You wouldn't want their room, especially if announcements bother you. The attendants room has this neat little board that shows and rings, everytime someone pushes their attendant's call button. I've seen it looking like a Christamas tree at times.

Please cite a story that you've seen where the crew didn't evacuate a derailed train or lead passengers to safety.

I never made any claim they wouldn't tell people to get out or try to assist them in whatever adhock manner they could fathom. I simply said I don't have faith that Amtrak's emergency SOP is any good. In other words, I don't have faith that Amtrak's onboard staff is properly trained or in proper physical shape to handle a true disaster. Not every onboard employee is old or feeble or indifferent toward pax but some of them are and if you're in their car are you going to get the help you need? Maybe or maybe not. I'm going to link to a video of how one of my local trains experienced a true disaster. It covers a variety of contributing factors but the takeaway was a total CF in every sense of the word and it does a great job of encapsulating many of the issues with Amtrak's safety practices that apparently still remain unresolved.

Safety and evacuation training is probably one area where Amtrak actually spends considerable time training its employees. And to date I've never seen a report of an Amtrak employee failing to do the right thing in a derailment.

What good will a new set of rolling stock do if it's simply flung into a river every time there's another undetected kink in the rails? While railroads are getting safer in other countries here in America they're getting less safe with an ever more determined push to remove as many eyeballs as possible from our rail infrastructure by the railroads who own and operate it.

You do realize that Amtrak can do nothing about heat kinks in most cases? Outside of 90 miles in Michigan and the NEC, Amtrak doesn't own the tracks. They have no say in how things are maintained. Want to blame someone? Blame the FRA and the host RR.

As for the number of accidents, unless you count grade crossing accidents, it's a very low number.

Low compared to what? And why wouldn't we count grade crossings? They've been recognized as the number one concern among countries who take passenger rail seriously and are largely already addressed by ensuring there are as few grade crossings as possible. What has Amtrak done to address this?

Aside from helping to sponsor Operation Lifesaver, what can Amtrak do? Again, they don't own most of the crossings. Even if they did, guess what? They can't change the crossing. No host RR can change the crossing. Anything associated with the crossing in terms of a warning device is considered a Traffic Control Device. All traffic control devices require approval by the local authority that governs the road. Neither Amtrak, CSX, BNSF, nor anyone else can just show up one day and put in gates or add an extra warning sign. They have to jump through hoops to get permission to install anything. Mind you most don't really want to either, since they end up paying for it forever.

Makes perfect sense, the RR gives permission to cross its property and then has to spend millions protecting people who can't follow the law of the land that says "Stop, Look, & Listen." It's the town, cities, and states that should be paying for these gates and warning devices. And even then, people still ignore them.

 

[PRR 60]

...Aside from helping to sponsor Operation Lifesaver, what can Amtrak do? Again, they don't own most of the crossings. Even if they did, guess what? They can't change the crossing. No host RR can change the crossing. Anything associated with the crossing in terms of a warning device is considered a Traffic Control Device. All traffic control devices require approval by the local authority that governs the road. Neither Amtrak, CSX, BNSF, nor anyone else can just show up one day and put in gates or add an extra warning sign. They have to jump through hoops to get permission to install anything. Mind you most don't really want to either, since they end up paying for it forever.
Makes perfect sense, the RR gives permission to cross its property and then has to spend millions protecting people who can't follow the law of the land that says "Stop, Look, & Listen." It's the town, cities, and states that should be paying for these gates and warning devices. And even then, people still ignore them.

Highway grade crossings and associated protective equipment is owned by the railroad. The crossings themselves are authorized by the state (through authority of the FRA). The railroad does not have the right to prohibit new crossings, but they have input into the decision about whether the crossing will be authorized and the type of crossing.

The state authority (in PA, the Public Utility Commission) issues the order that authorizes the crossing, specifies the type of protection, and allocates the cost for the installation and operation among the involved parties. In most cases, the highway authority pays to install the crossing and protection equipment, and the railroad is designated to operate and maintains it.

 

[Ryan]

Which just bolsters the point that Amtrak has absolutely nothing to do with it (except in daxomni's mind).

 

[VentureForth]

Speaking of unsold bedrooms, is it normal for the sleeping car attendent to take up one of the sleeping compartments for their own use? Is this done in every sleeping car and I've just never noticed it until now?

Yes. They get a room to use for themselves as do all other OBS.

Trying to get back on track here....

It seems like every time I've ever asked for an onboard upgrade, it's been a different story. From 10 years ago when I asked a conductor who didn't want to on the TE out of CHI to Mineola, but after the crew change in St Louis, the new conductor sought me out to sell me a roomette for $39 for a good chunk of night running. Then, I've been offered $100 roomette on the SWC before departure by Amtrak Marketing 4 years ago from ABQ to LAX. Never had to ask. On the Silver Star from SAV to RVR, I was offered the low bucket immediately upon boarding. The return on the Meteor got nothing even though there were rooms. From all the cliche' internet acronymns, YMMV truly applies here (your mileage may vary).

As for the crew taking up a roomette, I don't think that an SA should have a room. They need to be in the coach(es) they are working. Honestly, there should be crew quarters for them, and I hope it is a part of future designs. The SCA, though, deserves to have their own room, but only one. It should be designed for the SCA, and not just a roomette for him/her with plenty of applicable storage and communication considerations required for the SCA to perform their duties. They often use - and shouldn't be - an additional roomette across from them where they stash pillows, blankets, and boxes of juice and coffee beans. Isn't there somewhere else on the car where that stuff can be stored? Maybe even a refrigerator to store juices?

It's a great way to maximize revenue without increasing costs. This, and the LSA & staff not taking three dining room or lounge tables for their break time. In fact, the crew dorm should have a common area for crew to stretch out and do table work. Of course, there should be an intercom so that if there is something that requires their immediate attention, they can be contacted.

Of course, a lot has to do with the mentality of the crew. But that mentality can be mitigated (to a degree) by designing space that can be efficiently and comfortably used.

 

[printman2000]

As for the crew taking up a roomette, I don't think that an SA should have a room. They need to be in the coach(es) they are working. Honestly, there should be crew quarters for them, and I hope it is a part of future designs. The SCA, though, deserves to have their own room, but only one. It should be designed for the SCA, and not just a roomette for him/her with plenty of applicable storage and communication considerations required for the SCA to perform their duties. They often use - and shouldn't be - an additional roomette across from them where they stash pillows, blankets, and boxes of juice and coffee beans. Isn't there somewhere else on the car where that stuff can be stored? Maybe even a refrigerator to store juices?
It's a great way to maximize revenue without increasing costs. This, and the LSA & staff not taking three dining room or lounge tables for their break time. In fact, the crew dorm should have a common area for crew to stretch out and do table work. Of course, there should be an intercom so that if there is something that requires their immediate attention, they can be contacted.

Of course, a lot has to do with the mentality of the crew. But that mentality can be mitigated (to a degree) by designing space that can be efficiently and comfortably used.

Roomette #1 on Superliners is designed for the attendant. There is a light panel in the room to show when someone presses their call button. Not sure if that is the case in a Viewliner.

The crew dorms DO have a common area (on Superliners). There is a room downstairs where the lower level roomettes and family bedroom would normally be. Just not sure how much they actually use it.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Which just bolsters the point that Amtrak has absolutely nothing to do with [the safety of their operation] (except in daxomni's mind).

On the one hand AU members say "Amtrak is perfectly safe - Prove it's not!" And yet if you bring up all the grade crossing incidents that seem to happen with incredible frequency you get the "Amtrak is powerless to be safer!" response or "Those idiots deserved to be hit by the train!" or the like. So is Amtrak as safe as possible or are they powerless to be safer? It seems like you'd have to pick one view or the other and stick with it to be taken seriously. When JR, DB, TGV, etc. make an concerted effort to remove or prevent grade crossings and improve track protections they are enhancing safety and performance and marketability. That may mean the railfan in me gets locked out of more areas but at least there is a demonstrable benefit in the form of fewer crashes and disruptions to show for it. JR's intercity HSR system is exceptionally safe and it has to be in order to keep their legendary ontime performance. In addition you can walk along the platforms and check out all the action. It's truly the best of both worlds. I agree with those who say Amtrak has its hands tied in many regards, everything I've ever read bears that out, but I'm not the type to just shrug my shoulders and accept that nothing can ever be done. We're Americans, we should be bold in our designs and decisive in our actions. When a freight railroad fails to properly maintain a bridge or switch and Amtrak suffers for it then the freight railroad should have to pay Amtrak actual and punitive damages for their lack of proper maintenance. They should not be able to simply hand their legal bills over to Amtrak so that the taxpayer has to pay the plaintiffs on their behalf. The system that guides Amtrak is completely and utterly broken as it currently stands. Pax numbers are rising but Amtrak still has a chain of kryptonite over its neck that will forever ensure it can never keep its head above water. No matter how I try to envision Amtrak succeeding, I just don't see it. I'm a huge proponent of passenger rail, and I don't doubt that Amtrak is doing what it can, but that's never going to be enough to really turn things around. Trains that keep hitting cars and trucks and people will be late. Hardware will be damaged. Potential passengers will be less inclined to take the train. All this stuff is interconnected in my view.

 

[Ryan]

Which just bolsters the point that Amtrak has absolutely nothing to do with [the safety of their operation] (except in daxomni's mind).

On the one hand AU members say "Amtrak is perfectly safe - Prove it's not!" And yet if you bring up all the grade crossing incidents that seem to happen with incredible frequency you get the "Amtrak is powerless to be safer!"

How many Amtrak passengers have been killed in grade crossing accidents?

When a freight railroad fails to properly maintain a bridge or switch and Amtrak suffers for it then the freight railroad should have to pay Amtrak actual and punitive damages for their lack of proper maintenance. They should not be able to simply hand their legal bills over to Amtrak so that the taxpayer has to pay the plaintiffs on their behalf.

You should really educate yourself on how liability works in the railroad industry.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

How many Amtrak passengers have been killed in grade crossing accidents?

One post you're dinging Southwest for a non-passenger fatality but suddenly non-pax are irrelevent when Amtrak is the topic. No surprise there. As I said, even when the pax are fine the train is still delayed, the hardware may be damaged, the employees will be left dealing with the emotional aftermath and so on. Not everyone is as cavalier as GML about seeing strangers injured or killed, regardless of who was at fault. And how are people going to view a transportation company that's only in the news when someone has been killed or injured in connection with its operations? It's just not a good way to run a company that's trying to attract enough business to remain relevent.

You should really educate yourself on how liability works in the railroad industry.

Well, by listening to you what should I have learned? All you've been doing is making hit-and-run posts with little or no explanation as to what you think is specifically incorrect. Amtrak has been abused before by absurd agreements such as those which governed the legal liabilities for the 1991 derailment and crash of an Amtrak Silver Star No. 82 train traveling on CSX track in Lugoff, South Carolina. If those agreements have all been rewritten so the legal liabilty of track maintenance rests entirely with the owner who manages it then that's great news to my ears.

 

[Ryan]

I wasn't dinging Southwest, and you can hardly compare that accident with a grade crossing incident. Perhaps if the kid were standing in the middle of an active runway and got hit you'd have a point. As far as explaining the liability of things, I've got neither the time nor inclination to explain them to you. Perhaps if you showed yourself a little more willing to listen that would change, but you really haven't demonstrated anything of the sort.

 

[AlanB]

Ok, let's take this down a notch guys, please. Don't want things getting out of hand here.

 

[trainrider1976]

For your consideration: Instead of taking up so many rooms on the Viewliners, why not have the OBS share a room? Is it in their contract or is it just tradition? This would open up several revenue rooms on the crowded/sold out trains like the Cardinal/Crescent/LSL. If a roomette is adequate for paying pax,sometimes paying thousands of dollars, why no consider this until Amtrak can get more sleeping cars on the tracks!

On the last trip I made on the Card and Crescent, both trains were sold out @ High Bucket and OBS were occupying lots of the rooms including the H bedroom on the Crescent!This was true in the single sleeper on the Card and in both sleepers on the Crescent!

My last trip, I was in Room 2 across from the SCA. She was sleeping sitting up because her room, including the top bunk, was full of supplies. The seat opposite her was full of cases of water. I'm not sure how you could put more than one person in a room that crowded.

I was only on board the first day, so I'm sure some of the supplies were consumed.

I agree, trains I've been on the SCA roomette has always been crammed with supplies, I wondered where they find the space to sack out!

?????????????????????? Amtrak jams supplies in a roomette with the passenger and expect the passenger to sleep or stay in that condition? How is that permissable? I would not be happy with that arrangement.

 

[Ispolkom]

Grade separation is a hopeless issue for long-distance trains. If there is every newly built high-speed track (say for the California HSR project), I'd expect it to be grade-separated, but as for present-day track, that's just not possible.

Take the Empire Builder. It's 2205 miles from Chicago to Seattle. Guess how many grade crossings there are on this route. Even if there is only one per mile (and even in Montana or North Dakota that's low) that's more than 2000 grade crossings. I can't imagine the railroad closing a grade crossing (even a private one) without paying for the privilege, and even the most minimal signaling costs thousands. Signalizing every crossing isn't possible, and separating grade isn't even an option.

 

[MrFSS]

Amtrak jams supplies in a roomette with the passenger and expect the passenger to sleep or stay in that condition? How is that permissible? I would not be happy with that arrangement.

No - the supplies are in the SCA's room - not in any of the passenger's rooms.

 

[trainrider1976]

Amtrak jams supplies in a roomette with the passenger and expect the passenger to sleep or stay in that condition? How is that permissible? I would not be happy with that arrangement.

No - the supplies are in the SCA's room - not in any of the passenger's rooms.

Thanks. This confirms it. I need my perscription adjusted for my glasses. :blink: