Someone made a HUGE mistake..

[Mokita]

I don't see anyone minimizing the seriousness of the situation.

Here is one example.

An Amtrak Engineer that I exchanged email with suggested that the amount of ribbing that the crew involved in the Cynwyd incident will take in the dispatch rooms will hurt way more over a period of time than any formal punishment on this one, because nothing really serious happened or was realistically possible to happen beyond inconvenience and embarrassment in this one.

 

[Ryan]

That looks like a pretty accurate statement to me. Nobody died, nobody was injured, and given a functioning signaling system, neither of those was in jeopardy of happening.

 

[Mokita]

That looks like a pretty accurate statement to me. Nobody died, nobody was injured, and given a functioning signaling system, neither of those was in jeopardy of happening.

Do you work for Amtrak? You did not answer before when I asked.

So your line of reasoning is if nothing happened everything is O.K.? Never mind that they had no idea where they were, what rules were in effect, what could have happened etc.?

 

[pennyk]

Please, refrain from personal attacks. RyanS is not employed by Amtrak, but many long-time AU members are Amtrak employees. Also many AU members are in close contact with Amtrak employees, and those members are extremely knowledgable.

 

[Ryan]

That looks like a pretty accurate statement to me. Nobody died, nobody was injured, and given a functioning signaling system, neither of those was in jeopardy of happening.

Do you work for Amtrak? You did not answer before when I asked.
So your line of reasoning is if nothing happened everything is O.K.? Never mind that they had no idea where they were, what rules were in effect, what could have happened etc.?

As Penny said, no I don't work for Amtrak.
And my line of reasoning is that if nothing happened, then the statement "nothing really serious happened" is an accurate representation of the truth. It's not rocket surgery.

 

[Mokita]

Please, refrain from personal attacks. RyanS is not employed by Amtrak, but many long-time AU members are Amtrak employees. Also many AU members are in close contact with Amtrak employees, and those members are extremely knowledgable.

Where do I make a personal attack?

 

[Mokita]

That looks like a pretty accurate statement to me. Nobody died, nobody was injured, and given a functioning signaling system, neither of those was in jeopardy of happening.

Do you work for Amtrak? You did not answer before when I asked.
So your line of reasoning is if nothing happened everything is O.K.? Never mind that they had no idea where they were, what rules were in effect, what could have happened etc.?

As Penny said, no I don't work for Amtrak.
And my line of reasoning is that if nothing happened, then the statement "nothing really serious happened" is an accurate representation of the truth. It's not rocket surgery.

I'm glad that you do not work for Amtrak.

 

[Ryan]

Please, refrain from personal attacks. RyanS is not employed by Amtrak, but many long-time AU members are Amtrak employees. Also many AU members are in close contact with Amtrak employees, and those members are extremely knowledgable.

Where do I make a personal attack?

It's like she could see into the future.

I'm glad that you do not work for Amtrak.

 

[yarrow]

some of us see a safety problem, some don't. just speaking from my point of view as someone not knowledgeable about operating rules and signaling it would be unsettling to me as a passenger. the crew is out of their territory and don't quickly notice. in my former line of work (hospital icu) someone practicing outside their area of licensure or expertise was treated, properly, as a major safety violation

 

[PRR 60]

In all fairness, I think the response is minimizing the situation. The response says there was no safety violation. It says that since nothing bad happened, it was not a big deal. Really? I can't see how an Amtrak crew taking an Amtrak train onto another railroad's property without authorization and without any training or information on that railroad can be anything but a safety violation. In my opinion, it is a big deal.

 

[Ryan]

Oh, I don't disagree that it's a huge safety violation and needs to be fixed.

But if you go back and read all of Jishnu's post, it's pretty clear that he was talking about something more serious than "just" a rule violation.

 

[PRR 60]

some of us see a safety problem, some don't. just speaking from my point of view as someone not knowledgeable about operating rules and signaling it would be unsettling to me as a passenger. the crew is out of their territory and don't quickly notice. in my former line of work (hospital icu) someone practicing outside their area of licensure or expertise was treated, properly, as a major safety violation

That was the way it was in my line of work as well (high voltage power transmission). There was zero tolerance of this kind of thing - working outside the prescribed limits of work. This was not just some "s**t happens" event.

 

[jis]

I really didn't mean to upset people. So sorry about that.

What happened was serious enough to be investigated. The experts who investigated came to a conclusion. I have tried to explain why they arrived at that conclusion while trying very hard to avoid injecting any personal opinion into it. That does not imply that what happened was not serious. Just because I quoted an Engineer who said something does not make it a non-serious event. Basically what he was trying to say I think (my interpretation) is that it could have been a lot worse, and his way of saying it may strike a few as a bit odd. Perhaps I should refrain trying to bring in some human element and avoid raising the ire and indignation of the indignant. I shall remember to do that in the future. Clearly I have failed miserably in what I was trying to do. I apologize for that.

But really there is no reason to get personal about this at all. Strictly speaking really nothing happened to any of us involved in this discussion at all, except a few losing their cool and getting emotional.

 

[pennyk]

Some of us REALLY appreciate the information you pass on to us.

 

[Acela150]

I ditto Penny. I love the information that Jis passes on as it's full of useful information.

 

[Mokita]

Please, refrain from personal attacks. RyanS is not employed by Amtrak, but many long-time AU members are Amtrak employees. Also many AU members are in close contact with Amtrak employees, and those members are extremely knowledgable.

Where do I make a personal attack?

It's like she could see into the future.

I'm glad that you do not work for Amtrak.

You construe that as a personal attack? No attack there pal just a statement of fact. Given your line of reasoning I'm glad.

 

[PRR 60]

I rteally didn;t mean to upset people.

jis, you're not upsetting me. You're simply the messenger forwarding details of Amtrak's actions. My issue is with Amtrak, given what you said concerning their minimal response to this incident. Amtrak's gripe was that the train was delayed, and the crew was penalized for delaying the train - nothing else. Considering the facts here, that is so bazaar, that I wonder what else may have been involved.

 

[railiner]

This is not a joke for that crew. They may have operated their last Amtrak train for a long, long time.How in the world does that happen? This is a crew that is qualified to operate a train at 125mph up the corridor, and they somehow run a train for over two miles up the wrong line on someone else's track passing two stations before stopping just about a car length from the end of track bumper. YIKES! I would have loved to hear the conversations with the Amtrak and SEPTA dispatchers as this was transpiring.It's true that humans sometimes make mistakes, but this one is pretty hard to fathom.

Agreed Bill, it would have been bad enough to simply pass the first signal that they should have never taken. But to continue on onto tracks that they're not qualified and for such a distance is huge. In fact, I suspect that they've also committed a few FRA rules violations by operating on tracks that they're not qualified for and without a pilot. So even if Amtrak wanted to excuse their actions, and I rather doubt that Amtrak would do that, they'd still be likely to loose their FRA licenses. That alone would mean losing their job since they can no longer operate a train.

I could give the conductor a little flexibility on this, as he has to look out the window to realize something is wrong, even as he/she is trying to take tickets. But there is no excuse for the engineer! Unless this was some test setup by Amtrak to see how dispatch would react, I think that engineer has driven his last train for Amtrak. At the very least, he's in for some huge retraining and a demotion to fireman if he manages to keep a job at all.

Without knowing for sure, it may well be the conductor that was at fault. Someone had to be in the AEM7 that pushed the train out of 30th Street. That someone was probably the engineer. Someone else had to be in the cab car providing directions to the operator of the AEM7 by radio. That someone was probably the conductor. Presumably, the conductor was looking forward from the cab car and should have know that they were leaving Amtrak and on the wrong railroad. However, the engineer would have the view out the back from the AEM7, and he or she should also have realized that they were crossing the viaduct and leaving Amtrak. So, assuming the work was as described, there is blame for both.

I heard that once SEPTA realized what was happening, they killed power to the catenary on the Cynwyd Line. They likely feared this could be some kind of train hijacking with some goofball at the controls. I'm sure they never considered that a trained Amtrak crew could make a mistake like this.

This is one of the most bazaar stories I've ever heard. What happened is pretty clear. Why and how it happened is not.

Pardon me for joining this thread late in the game, but the above comment about SEPTA cutting the power to the catenary....if this did happen....why didn't the dispatcher contact the wayward crew as soon as they realized the mistake? Was it after they already reached the end of the line?.....

 

[VentureForth]

Could've been. It doesn't take that long, even at 15 MPH, to go 2 miles.

I have a question about the clear signal. If it was set to clear for the next SEPTA trolley, then Amtrak was truly given the Green all the way to Cynwyd (even though they only had to go a couple hundred yards).

I didn't see anything where SEPTA was delayed even though apparently several of these one-car trains run here daily. (Note: Didn't expect to see a lot from SEPTA as Amtrak was the big news. Just 'cause I didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.)

 

[Ryan]

You construe that as a personal attack? No attack there pal just a statement of fact. Given your line of reasoning I'm glad.

I'm curious as to why you hold that opinion.

 

[SarahZ]

Stating that you are glad Ryan does not work for Amtrak is a personal attack, regardless of trying to justify it as fact. When you say you are glad someone does not work for Amtrak, it is obvious you feel they are lacking somehow; otherwise, you wouldn't say such a thing.

If you knew Ryan personally, you would actually be quite sad that he does not work for Amtrak. Amtrak could use more people who are patient, understanding, intelligent, and resourceful, not to mention good under pressure.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Stating that you are glad Ryan does not work for Amtrak is a personal attack, regardless of trying to justify it as fact. When you say you are glad someone does not work for Amtrak, it is obvious you feel they are lacking somehow; otherwise, you wouldn't say such a thing.

If you knew Ryan personally, you would actually be quite sad that he does not work for Amtrak. Amtrak could use more people who are patient, understanding, intelligent, and resourceful, not to mention good under pressure.

Well Said and True!

 

[PRR 60]

Pardon me for joining this thread late in the game, but the above comment about SEPTA cutting the power to the catenary....if this did happen....why didn't the dispatcher contact the wayward crew as soon as they realized the mistake? Was it after they already reached the end of the line?.....

The Amtrak crew was using the Amtrak dispatch radio frequency, not SEPTA's. When SEPTA tried to contact them (not knowing who "them" was), since the call was on the SEPTA frequency, the Amtrak crew did not hear it and did not respond. At that point, SEPTA had no idea what was going on other than there was an unidentified train on their rails which was not answering radio calls. They killed the power as a precaution. I believe the train was already stopped at Cynwyd at the time.

 

[railiner]

So there was not enough time for the SEPTA dispatcher to confer with Amtrak dispatcher to find out what this "unidentified train" that came off Amtrak territory was?

Like in the movie 'Cool Hand Luke'........"What we have heeya, is a failya to communicate"

 

[jis]

Stating that you are glad Ryan does not work for Amtrak is a personal attack, regardless of trying to justify it as fact. When you say you are glad someone does not work for Amtrak, it is obvious you feel they are lacking somehow; otherwise, you wouldn't say such a thing.

If you knew Ryan personally, you would actually be quite sad that he does not work for Amtrak. Amtrak could use more people who are patient, understanding, intelligent, and resourceful, not to mention good under pressure.

Well Said and True!

Agreed.