St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

[daybeers]

Given the high failure rate of Charger locos

How often?

 

[TransitTyrant]

Given the high failure rate of Charger locos and weekly cancellations of Milwaukee and Carbondale trains, and 2 car Quincy trains, all too often without cafe-business car, I don't see how they will run it at all. The 4 state consortium seems sound asleep with Amtrak's service failures.

Reliability of the Chargers isn’t where it needs to be but high failure rate is pure hyperbole. Weekly is pure nonsense, a few have been cancelled but calm down with the exaggerations. The Midwest corridor services would collapse if their failure rate was high.

 

[TransitTyrant]

Ah, why am I not surprised that MnDOT is a large part of the cause. Did she mention anything specific that you remember? MnDOT (may as well still be called the Dept. of Highways, cough, cough) has a long history of slow-walking or active hostility towards anything intercity non-car transportation related. That, and MnDOT has never had enough staff capacity to do much beyond the bare minimum of rail planning, unfortunately.

Nothing really specific, just agreements on their end.

 

[Crowbar_k]

https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-new...-and-twin-cities-expected-to-launch-in-spring
Didn't know this was happening so soon.

 

[Crowbar_k]

So, does this mean that one Chicago - Milwaukee schedule will now have food service?

 

[railiner]

So, does this mean that one Chicago - Milwaukee schedule will now have food service?

That plus the EB would mean two, right?

 

[Crowbar_k]

That plus the EB would mean two, right?

Yeah. That's what I meant. I guess that's nice. But it's so short that by the time I'm like "oh I'm hungry" I'm then like "oh. We're here."

 

[TransitTyrant]

So, does this mean that one Chicago - Milwaukee schedule will now have food service?

Wouldn’t be shocked if there’s no food service between Chicago-Milwaukee but they need it north of Milwaukee.

 

[Crowbar_k]

Wouldn’t be shocked if there’s no food service between Chicago-Milwaukee but they need it north of Milwaukee.

?

So you think they will just uncouple the cafe car when it gets to Milwaukee?

 

[TransitTyrant]

?

So you think they will just uncouple the cafe car when it gets to Milwaukee?

No, the car would just be unstaffed in that scenario. Milwaukee will be a crew change location.

 

[jis]

No, the car would just be unstaffed in that scenario. Milwaukee will be a crew change location.

I doubt that they will send out a fully stocked food service car unstaffed from Chicago. Who is going to be responsible for the inventory? So I don't see this happening, since Milwaukee has no Commissary to deliver inventory to the food service car.

 

[leccy]

Why is everyone so obsessed with the name of the train ?

Because every discussion on Amtrak inevitably drifts into a discussion of what the NYC or Pennsy could do in 1951... wasn't there a thread here a year or so ago on this?

 

[jebr]

I doubt that they will send out a fully stocked food service car unstaffed from Chicago. Who is going to be responsible for the inventory? So I don't see this happening, since Milwaukee has no Commissary to deliver inventory to the food service car.

Yeah, I can't see them trying to do anything other than run it from Chicago. It'll probably be closed through a decent part of the Chicago to Milwaukee portion anyways, as often the cafe car doesn't open until 15-30ish minutes into the trip.

 

[railiner]

I think food service cars should always be in service, when trains are. They should prepare to open before passengers board, and close when train reaches its last station.
Further, they should set up operations so that the attendant is relieved by another during breaks.
Perhaps even keep open overnight, if there is busy traffic during that time…the old Night Owl did…

 

[grover5995]

It is very likely that it will have the same consist as a Hiawatha.

Maybe a few Horizon coaches and a food service car. At least service will be available eastbound when EB is running hours late.

 

[grover5995]

Under that scenario, when does the St Paul bound train leave Chicago?

Probably will be between 9-10am.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I think food service cars should always be in service, when trains are. They should prepare to open before passengers board, and close when train reaches its last station.
Further, they should set up operations so that the attendant is relieved by another during breaks.
Perhaps even keep open overnight, if there is busy traffic during that time…the old Night Owl did…

While I agree in general. The lounge car’s operation is done in a way that makes these difficult to achieve.

The LSA is fully financially responsible for all products for sale. You miss count the number of coffee cups, the LSA gets to reimburse Amtrak the cost out of their pocket. Their pay would need to start early and continue after the train arrives, to get the full travel time covered. Never mind the last minute change of cars. I do believe the current pay schedules is for one hour before and after. The whole coverage by somebody other than the LSA during breaks would be hard to implement.

 

[grover5995]

Why not just extend the Hiawatha Service to the Twin Cities?

Current plans are for Hiawatha Corridor to expand to 10 trips daily. Four trips would continue to Madison, three to Green Bay, and three to Minneapolis. This is from AMTRAK 2021 Corridor Vision report.

 

[grover5995]

Was there any mention of using UP (Ex-C&NW) trackage north of Milwaukee to give service to other cities? Sorry I'm behind the curve on this one.

Current plans are to make use of UP tracks to/from EauClaire, but not north of Milwaukee. Service to Green Bay would likely run on CN (ex-SOO) trackage north of Duplainville.

 

[grover5995]

Some how I don't picture that 2nd train consist of a double stack superliner - it is not as if it was a long haul train needing sleeping accommodations.
More of a speedy metro commuter train from MSP to Chicago (Milwaukee). On the same note where is Amtrak going to get another double stack
Superliner train set unless replacing one of the other long haul trains with a new set of wheels (not in the budget !)
I am picturing the consist being a short train set of locomotive - baggage - 3-4 coach (one with business seating) cars and a diner/snack car.
If need be throw a View Liner Sleeper on the end. This 2nd train set should be short enough to slip into any siding to make ease of movement
around the long freight trains. - Not my job to run the train or blow the horn but should it jump the track guess who catches the blame !

All this predicated on running the train late morning early afternoon.
Running later in the evening then there would be justification for the Sleepers.
Early am too much conflict with the scheduled #8 -

AND then the return trip from Chicago to MSP -
Definitely a morning trip to avoid conflict with the (late) evening #7

BUT still yet the connection conflict with the Chief and the Zephyr and other east bound trains.
Unless the rails are worked on to allow high speed rail the connection issue may be mute.

Then the possibility of connection with the NorthStar Duluth service -

When the airlines beat the train city-center-to-city-center if is time to rethink the travel equation !

The CP route between Chicago-Milwaukee is double-track and will likely be extended West to Watertown for expanded service to Madison and Minneapolis.

 

[grover5995]

I’ve heard a similar sentiment. Crew change will take place in Milwaukee but one detail that needs ironing out is where the train will be refueled in St Paul.

New trains would likely run into Target Field station in Minneapolis with direct connection to Duluth and Northstar commuter service.

 

[jis]

New trains would likely run into Target Field station in Minneapolis with direct connection to Duluth and Northstar commuter service.

Is there a credible source supporting this or is this just speculation?

 

[Amtrak25]

I thought the new Milwaukeee-extended train would terminate at St Paul. The Duluth trains some day would only run as far south as Target Field, Minneapolis. Make your own way across the disconnect.

 

[west point]

I thought the new Milwaukeee-extended train would terminate at St Paul. The Duluth trains some day would only run as far south as Target Field, Minneapolis. Make your own way across the disconnect.

Sounds like an upper management decision to prevent real thru service?

 

[OmahaRoad]

I thought the new Milwaukeee-extended train would terminate at St Paul. The Duluth trains some day would only run as far south as Target Field, Minneapolis. Make your own way across the disconnect.

Yes, as of now, the TCMC/second train will terminate at St. Paul and the NLX in Minneapolis. However, I know that there have been what could best be termed as background discussions, along with, I believe an offhand mention or two in now-dated planning documents, to have the second train terminate at Target Field. And I know a lot of people want the NLX to go to SPUD, but it isn't slated to.

What's concretely going on is that both advocate groups like All Aboard Minnesota, a handful of politicians, and maybe some others want to extend the second train to Fargo basically as soon as they can, which would be a few years after it starts running, at the earliest. At that time there would be a discussion of adding a TFS stop, though it wouldn't terminate there.

Sounds like an upper management decision to prevent real thru service?

No, it is not, in the slightest. There have been no plans for a through service from Duluth to Chicago and vice-versa. Those more familiar with Amtrak's decisionmaking and railroading than I can chime in, but I don't think there's the passenger demand or desire by Amtrak to have a CHI-Duluth service at this time. As others have said, it would be a "do your own transfer" as of right now.

The NLX has *always* been intended to connect Minneapolis to Duluth, terminating at TFS. That's just the way the planning cookie has crumbled over years and years of planning efforts. In my opinion, is the NLX the most logical or necessary next rail project in MN? (The most logical would be SPUD to KC or Houston, to connect to the other E-W services and other destinations without going through Chicago) No, but it has long had very strong northern MN political support + captures the imagination of Twin Cities residents and politicians who like the idea of catching a train to Duluth. Therefore, it has been studied more and given more funding than any other proposal, and is by far the closest to being "shovel-ready." That is why the MN legislature appropriated a large amount of matching funds earlier in 2023 to try to get the project off the ground + take advantage of increased Amtrak funding.

Anyway, back to the subject of the TCMC: Given that--even if all goes well in the coming months and year in terms of the NLX getting full funding and Amtrak signoff--it will be quite a number of years before trains are rolling--it is likely a little premature to worry about NLX-TCMC connections. Let Amtrak get the TCMC/second train going in 2024 (knock on wood) and hopefully see some success, and then turn to the NLX issue.