St. Paul?

[Michael061282]

Does anybody have any idea when the New (old) St. Paul Depot will actually start being used by the Empire Builder? All I could find online was "2012"

<sorry if theres another topic on this, I searched the forums but didn't see any>

 

[Nathanael]

Nobody knows. It will definitely not be before January 2013. But nobody knows exactly when it will be. It seems like there are details which haven't been worked out between Ramsey County, Amtrak, and Canadian Pacific (and, for all I know, BNSF).

 

[brent wuellner]

Who owns the depot?

 

[Ispolkom]

Who owns the depot?

Ramsey County, either directly or through one of its agencies, like the Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority.

 

[dabrilloman]

On August 31 I sent an e-mail to Amtrak asking the question of when...the following was the reply.....

We are planning to relocate our public functions next year to St. Paul Union Depot.

Marc Magliari

Media Relations Manager

Amtrak Government Affairs

& Corporate Communications

Amtrak Chicago Union Station

500 West Jackson Boulevard

Chicago, IL 60661-5702

tel: 312 544.5390 or ATS 823.5390

fax: 202 799.NEWS or ATS 777.NEWS

 

[montana mike]

well, that narrows it down to only 365 days. I can't wait to see the new station. Every time I ride the EB we are going by the construction slowly and it looks terrific. The old Union Station in St. Paul is beautiful. This should be a much more enjoyable stop for all.

 

[dabrilloman]

Yeah, I know that wasn't very specific. But that was the reply I got. I will try another e-mail tomorrow to see if they have it narrowed down.

Can't wait for the EB to be back at Union Station also...it is a very beautiful building!

 

[NW cannonball]

Yeah, I know that wasn't very specific. But that was the reply I got. I will try another e-mail tomorrow to see if they have it narrowed down.

Can't wait for the EB to be back at Union Station also...it is a very beautiful building!

Yeah -- none of us locals have any more info on this. Looking forward to the new station -- but the old one is in walking distance - hope the new light rail is working when we switch to the refurbished old downtown station.

 

[Nathanael]

Yeah, I know that wasn't very specific. But that was the reply I got. I will try another e-mail tomorrow to see if they have it narrowed down.

Can't wait for the EB to be back at Union Station also...it is a very beautiful building!

Yeah -- none of us locals have any more info on this. Looking forward to the new station -- but the old one is in walking distance - hope the new light rail is working when we switch to the refurbished old downtown station.

Amtrak should relocate to the Union Depot in 2013, while the light rail should open in 2014 (probably early).

I'm fairly sure nobody is willing to narrow down Amtrak's move-in date yet. I don't know why they've been so tight-lipped and I don't know what the issue is or who the issue is caused by.

 

[TraneMan]

Maybe they are waiting till the election is over to see who wins for President.. If Romney wins, it may not happen since he has this talk of cuting Amtrak???

 

[afigg]

Maybe they are waiting till the election is over to see who wins for President.. If Romney wins, it may not happen since he has this talk of cuting Amtrak???

No, the plans for the station are to turn it into a central intermodal station with a light rail line stop, bus service, and longer range range plans for commuter rail, along with plans/interest in a corridor service to Chicago. If Romney wins, the Empire Builder would be among the last LD trains to get cut. The states on the route might even pick up the bill for it because the EB provides a vital transportation link to the remote towns on the route.

A website for the station shows the most recent news is the selection of artists for commissions to build sculptures and artwork. That is not a sign of a project waiting on the outcome of an election.

 

[NW cannonball]

Maybe they are waiting till the election is over to see who wins for President.. If Romney wins, it may not happen since he has this talk of cuting Amtrak???

No, the plans for the station are to turn it into a central intermodal station with a light rail line stop, bus service, and longer range range plans for commuter rail, along with plans/interest in a corridor service to Chicago. If Romney wins, the Empire Builder would be among the last LD trains to get cut. The states on the route might even pick up the bill for it because the EB provides a vital transportation link to the remote towns on the route.

A website for the station shows the most recent news is the selection of artists for commissions to build sculptures and artwork. That is not a sign of a project waiting on the outcome of an election.

Right. This project has bipartisan support here in Minnesota. Partly to revitalize downtown Saint Paul, partly to support fast corridor rail to Chicago, partly to get better commuter rail to the southeast part of the state including the Mayo Clinics. But nobody knows just when the project will be done and Amtrak (and some bus companies) will actually move in

The new (rebuilt) station in downtown St Paul is only one part of the whole works, and it has wide support here.

 

[Ispolkom]

Right. This project has bipartisan support here in Minnesota.

That is simply not true. There has never been any Republican support for St. Paul Union Depot that I've ever seen. Heck, there's rarely been any Republican support for any capital project in St. Paul. How many years did Gov. Pawlenty line-item veto every bonding project for St. Paul?

Sure, Gov. Pawlenty supported the Northstar commuter line, but only with an end-point in the middle of nowhere, and inadequately frequent service. That way future Republicans can point to the Northstar line's poor ridership as proof that commuter rail doesn't work, and BNSF gets some corporate welfare in the form of improved tracks on its main line.

Remember, it was the GOP that inserted the ban on even a study of any commuter rail line unless the money for the study was specifically appropriated by the legislature.

Now, to be honest, St. Paul's entire delegation to the state house is DFL, as is its entire city council and mayor, and it elects a Democratic congresswoman, so Republican hostility to development here has some political basis.

 

[Nathanael]

Given that the tracks within the station have been *built*, and Amtrak has confirmed that Amtrak *wants* to move in, but the tracks in the station haven't been *connected to the mainline* (which is owned by Canadian Pacific), I am fairly sure that the key sticking point is something related to negotiations with Canadian Pacific.

I have no idea what CP is asking for, however. Whatever they're asking for might require commitments from any and all of Amtrak, Ramsey County, or BNSF.

(IMNSHO, the best solution to this is for Ramsey County to buy this branch from CP -- to CP it is a minor branch line -- but that's never been proposed and there's no funding for it.)

 

[Exiled in Express]

Platforms have been fully lit at night for some time and look amazing from the Lafayette Bridge, last week I also noticed that the Kellogg level (bus?) lobby was being lit too. Maintenance on the Midway station seems to have been stopped sometime last winter, burned out sign and broken seats are constants.

 

[NW cannonball]

Who owns the depot?

Ramsey County, either directly or through one of its agencies, like the Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority.

I've no idea. An old SOO Employee Timetable records the track near Jackson Street as belonging to "Saint Paul Union Depot" but that was a long time ago. With the demise of the Ford Plant, the users of the track nearby are UP, TCW, CP..

 

[Trogdor]

My understanding is that the depot tracks themselves are governed under the UP timetable, however BNSF and CP have trackage rights.

Would be a travesty if UP was given any authority over the Empire Builder's schedule.

 

[Ispolkom]

Who owns the depot?

Ramsey County, either directly or through one of its agencies, like the Ramsey County Regional Railroad Authority.

It is owned by the RCRRA.

In 2007, the RCRRA reached an agreement to purchase the Waiting Room, Concourse and adjacent track from the U.S. Postal Service. In June 2009, the RCRRA purchased the Headhouse.

 

[Nathanael]

My understanding is that the depot tracks themselves are governed under the UP timetable, however BNSF and CP have trackage rights.

That would be bizarre in the extreme. There are three "through" tracks south of the depot. As it has been explained to me, the southern two tracks are UP, while the northern one (which would have the switches connecting to the station tracks) is CP.

I have been told that CP has legal control of the interlocking to the east -- most of the traffic through it is actually BNSF, however, and the CP and BNSF lines extending beyond that are jointly operated by the BNSF dispatcher.

The actual tracks IN the depot are of course owned outright by Ramsey County or one of its agencies.

Would be a travesty if UP was given any authority over the Empire Builder's schedule.

Indeed. UP is a travesty.

Perhaps there is a joint agreement between UP and CP regarding the use of the lines between Robert St. and the big interlocking with BNSF, and that agreement has to expire.

 

[NW cannonball]

My understanding is that the depot tracks themselves are governed under the UP timetable, however BNSF and CP have trackage rights.

That would be bizarre in the extreme. There are three "through" tracks south of the depot. As it has been explained to me, the southern two tracks are UP, while the northern one (which would have the switches connecting to the station tracks) is CP.

I'm thinking this is backward. Of the 3 "through" tracks the northernmost (farthest from the river, closer to the depot) is the UP that comes from the east side and Wisconsin, winds through the big multitrack BNSF interlocking beneath I94, and has a crossover to the Robert Street lift bridge and thus onward to the UP yards in South Saint Paul. The Southern (closer to the river) two tracks are CP Main Track 1 and 2, where UP has rights to access its old small "Western" yard and their swing bridge on to Savage and Shakopee. Only a few hundred yards upstream from the depot, near Walnut Street (by the Science Museum) the CP reduces to a single track (the "short line") that no longer serves the defunct Ford plant but still serves Amtrak and the TCW as far as Merriam Park and the present Amtrak Midway station. Also near Walnut Street is where the UP branches off the "short line" onto it's own unsignalled yard tracks.

I have been told that CP has legal control of the interlocking to the east -- most of the traffic through it is actually BNSF, however, and the CP and BNSF lines extending beyond that are jointly operated by the BNSF dispatcher.

The actual tracks IN the depot are of course owned outright by Ramsey County or one of its agencies.

Would be a travesty if UP was given any authority over the Empire Builder's schedule.

Indeed. UP is a travesty.

Perhaps there is a joint agreement between UP and CP regarding the use of the lines between Robert St. and the big interlocking with BNSF, and that agreement has to expire.

The big interlocking with BNSF is called "Hoffman" where there are at least 5 tracks BNSF and CP (and some kind of access for the UP also) and crossovers from any to any of em, and to the UP, CP Pigs Eye, and BNSF Bluff yards.

East of Hoffman the 2 mains are joint BNSF and CP, dispatched by the BNSF East Hump. West of Hoffman, the 2 CP mains (shrinking to 1 near Walnut) are dispatched by the CP River dispatcher.

As to who has what rights where - no idea.

It's a bit confusing, and I've been watching it for years.

Hope this post is not too confusing or obscure.

 

[NW cannonball]

Platforms have been fully lit at night for some time and look amazing from the Lafayette Bridge, last week I also noticed that the Kellogg level (bus?) lobby was being lit too. Maintenance on the Midway station seems to have been stopped sometime last winter, burned out sign and broken seats are constants.

I want to see how the new SPUD connects, but have not gotten down there to view the new platforms. Any info appreciated. It seems that the EB out of the new SPUD will still use the Short Line and the slowness through the MNNR yard until re-connecting to some BNSF main at Saint Anthony or Park Junction - either of which is slow, but probably less slow than backing onto to BNSF main back around Hoffman. Just curious - the slow times through the TC add nearly an hour to the EB schedule.

[edit] and without the Ford plant - how much traffic can contribute to maintaining the Short Line at its current fairly decent 40-45 mph speed?

 

[NW cannonball]

Platforms have been fully lit at night for some time and look amazing from the Lafayette Bridge, last week I also noticed that the Kellogg level (bus?) lobby was being lit too. Maintenance on the Midway station seems to have been stopped sometime last winter, burned out sign and broken seats are constants.

I want to see how the new SPUD connects, but have not gotten down there to view the new platforms. Any info appreciated. It seems that the EB out of the new SPUD will still use the Short Line and the slowness through the MNNR yard until re-connecting to some BNSF main at Saint Anthony or Park Junction - either of which is slow, but probably less slow than backing onto to BNSF main back around Hoffman. Just curious - the slow times through the TC add nearly an hour to the EB schedule.

[edit] and without the Ford plant - how much traffic can contribute to maintaining the Short Line at its current fairly decent 40-45 mph speed?

Apologies for responding to my own post -- But --

Went there yesterday - that station looks good "SPUD" -- we'll have to live with that.

The station looks good - the connections look like non-existent.

I walked up and around the station and up the bluff and down again though Commercial Street (the under-the-whole-infrastructure jogging trail)

The Division Street switch looks like always (is that switch a dispatcher - controlled power-throw - don't seem like it to me) If there is an access to SPUD through this - it is several hand-throws.

There is at present NO connection from SPUD westbound to the Short Line or anywhere else.

The official opening of SPUD is December 08, 2012.

I'm wondering , as many others are wondering , WHEN this new station will actually serve Amtrak's EB ?

 

[Exiled in Express]

There is at present NO connection from SPUD westbound to the Short Line or anywhere else.

The official opening of SPUD is December 08, 2012.

I'm wondering , as many others are wondering , WHEN this new station will actually serve Amtrak's EB ?

December 8 is sooner than I expected. Is there a reason why the opening is being rushed with Amtrak not capable of serving the platforms and the long distance bus services dithering as to when and if they will serve it? Running MetroTransit into the station adds nothing by itself, the Fifth/Sixth Street loop seems much more convenient for downtown O/D and I don't think there is a lot of connecting bus traffic coming from the east.

 

[Nathanael]

OK, I'm beginning to get the picture. So it sounds like for historical reasons, UP's line is on the wrong side (the north side) when running in front of the depot, despite the fact that *all* of UP's connections are on the south side and UP has to cross CP to get to any of its own trackage (UP has no line to Wisconsin any more, they sold it to the Minnesota Commercial). The logical thing to do is to rearrange the track ownership with a simple land swap, moving UP's ownership to the southern track.

However, UP has a record of particularly bad behavior, so God knows what sort of trouble they're causing.

UP has been causing a lot of trouble with passenger train projects, as far as I can tell just for the sake of causing trouble; being spectacularly uncooperative and deliberately incompetent when dealing with government agencies, in a way which extends well beyond the behavior of CSX or CN, let alone CP, NS, or BNSF. The federal government should buy out UP and get rid of its management, really.

 

[AlanB]

However, UP has a record of particularly bad behavior, so God knows what sort of trouble they're causing. UP has been causing a lot of trouble with passenger train projects, as far as I can tell just for the sake of causing trouble; being spectacularly uncooperative and deliberately incompetent when dealing with government agencies, in a way which extends well beyond the behavior of CSX or CN, let alone CP, NS, or BNSF. The federal government should buy out UP and get rid of its management, really.

I'm no fan of UP, and they certainly have done some anti-passenger rail things. But they're not quite the monster that you're making them out to be. And they have done some pro-passenger things too, including their cooperation with Caltrans when it comes to AmtrakCalifornia operations.